Author Topic: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.  (Read 6641 times)

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gerwil

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159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« on: December 26, 2020, 11:53:00 PM »
Hi just wondering if someone has some thoughts on a fault I have. Been a very reliable car but had an issue starting about 10K kms ago (currently got 111K kms). A new set of plugs seemed to fix it. But unfortunately the fault has returned. After a day or so 'rest', it will not start on the first try. Always starts second go. And for the rest of the day starts every time like normal. No other symptoms. I've got a blue tooth scanner on order hoping that may shed light. Not a big issue but I'm concerned that she's warning me that action is required. I put a fuel line check valve in just after the fuel pump but no change. Someone suggested that I might be loosing fuel pressure requiring more cranks to fire.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Cheers

bazzbazz

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #1 on: December 27, 2020, 12:44:39 AM »
This is a common issue with the 2.2JTS engine, the problem is usually down to one of two things -

A/ Build up on the intake valves (A common issue with direct injection engines)

B/ Dirty/Clogged fuel injectors

At the next service I suggest you try some Liqui-Moly Petrol Engine Intake Decarb before changing the oil. (Oil must be changed after using it) In addition put a bottle of Injector cleaner through the tank to see if it improves the situation.

If neither of these help then the only other course of action is to have the injectors removed and serviced/tested/cleaned.

(Have sent you a PM)
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sketchl

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #2 on: December 27, 2020, 05:46:28 PM »
Note that this issue of not starting on first go is actually a good thing as the 2.2JTS has an inherent issue of starving the cams of oil at first start up, so I normally turn over the engine a few times before starting.
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gerwil

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2020, 02:51:46 PM »
Not sure how you would 'turn over' a push button start engine. Mines the 2010 model which I believe the ECU is in complete control.
Also, I would think a modern day engine would not starve the cams of oil on start-up.
The fuel injector cleaner is on its second tank and has made no noticeable difference so far (always been 95 octane). The fault is 100% repeatable. If the injectors are clogged, then Id expect random starting and low fuel economy.
Still waiting for the scanner, covid delays I'm guessing.
Cheers 

kaleuclint

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2021, 06:20:14 PM »
Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?

Now THAT is a mantra for so many of us to live by!

At this point I'd miss the constant, friendly 'Check Engine' light beaming brightly.
2011 159ti 1750TBi

Craig_m67

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2021, 06:38:18 PM »

Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?

There is nothing more complicated in a modern day Alfa than there is in a fricken Corolla... you just need a motivated and experienced indie (or an analytical head and some software to read the ECU).

Owning an Alfa has nothing to do with putting up with faults, indeed that is something anybody can do with any brand/product.

Bazz has given some advice, if your in QLD maybe ring him and ask/book a look.

#notmeanttobesnarky, I have a love/meh relationship with all my Alfa’s
« Last Edit: January 09, 2021, 06:41:23 PM by Craig_m67 »
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gerwil

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2021, 11:51:36 AM »
Yes, will do, but just waiting for my scanner first to see if it points to something I can handle. Cleaning injectors is not a quick job but will give it a go if the scanner does not show anything. Still think its a fuel or ECU issue though as it's 100% repeatable, cold or warm weather, and only after a days rest. It's cute to think that it's acceptable because it's an Alfa, but I think we say that because we are at the end of our tether and need some justification to try and accept it  ;).
Cheers

gerwil

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2021, 12:53:44 PM »
Finally got a scanner that works. Ended up paying $69 from Jaycar. The app they recommend, 'Touque'  worked but others did not. Wanted to use the Multiecuscan app. This is first time I've got a scanner that works. At least manufactures are starting to write code to cover the different protocols. And it should not be necessary to get a dedicated expensive scanner just to read fault codes. Maybe would have been better to leave the interface/app in the hands of the individual manufactures and then they sell it as an optional extra. The attached pic is of the Chinese one I was waiting on which initially worked but then the lights only worked if I put pressure on the plug. Suspect a broken circuit board connector. And the plug was very tight. Still only $20 but lesson learned.(not sure if pic attached as the preview did not show it)

So only two faults P1036 (O2 sensor Bank 1 sensor 2) and U1600 MBUSY open. Cleared both and they have not returned. The U1600 error points to the fob and that could have occurred when I had the battery replaced some time ago. 
So back to square one. An extra bit of info, when I press the start button for the first start, it does 'catch' initially but then just cranks. And its 100% repeatable (not sure about the delay between starts but over night at least. Second start catches straight away. So maybe a ECU issue. Thought I might 'reboot' it. Would disconnecting the battery be the best way?
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bazzbazz

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2021, 03:45:36 PM »
It is NOT the ECU!!!

The problem will most likely be the injectors as it is a common issue with your model.

Disconnecting the battery will NOT reset anything in the Engine ECU, to do so you need to use MES and reset the Eng ECU parameters with that.
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Colin Edwards

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2021, 10:08:53 AM »
Makes sense it could be dirty / partially clogged injectors.

Cold engines need a rich mixture for reliable ignition.  If the spray from the injectors is not a fine mist or is misdirected or excessively wets the spark plug, unreliable cold starting is possible.  Issue less likely on a hot engine as the larger than ideal fuel droplets likely with iffy injectors will evaporate a bit / reduce in size and raise the mixture strength allowing more reliable ignition / starting.

Couple of doses of say Liqui Moly injector cleaner might help - cant hurt!  If that doesn't work have the injectors professionally removed / tested / cleaned / re-tested.

Colin
« Last Edit: January 25, 2021, 11:56:54 AM by Colin Edwards »
Present
2020 Giulietta Veloce
2018 Abarth 124 Spider
1987 75 3.0

Past
2015 Giulietta QV
2009 159 3.2 Ti Q4
2012 Giulietta TCT Veloce
2006 147 Ti 2 door Selespeed
1979 Alfasud Ti 1.5

gerwil

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2021, 11:41:05 PM »
Hi, yes, I agree with your argument. Dirty or faulty injectors would display this fault. But 100% consistently on both hot and cold engines? Just finished 2 tanks of injector cleaner but no difference. I'm due an oil change soon so if nothing else changes, I'll pull the injectors out and clean/replace them.
Thanks for your replies.
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Colin Edwards

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2021, 09:25:37 AM »
Given the mist from a direct injection engine like the JTS does not condense on cold surfaces like the inlet tract and inlet valve, its fair to assume the mixture during a cold start will be leaner than that of a port injection engine.  Happy to be corrected! 
The mixture in the combustion chamber at the moment of an ignition event could be leaner or of the incorrect shape if the injectors are iffy.

Could it be possible the ECU does not know the engine needs a slightly richer micture due to the coolant temperature?  Is the temperature sensor iffy?  Does the JTS use a temperature sensor specific to "cold" starting?

A new set of injectors could be pricey!
Present
2020 Giulietta Veloce
2018 Abarth 124 Spider
1987 75 3.0

Past
2015 Giulietta QV
2009 159 3.2 Ti Q4
2012 Giulietta TCT Veloce
2006 147 Ti 2 door Selespeed
1979 Alfasud Ti 1.5

gerwil

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Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2021, 10:54:00 PM »
So I think I've solved it. Was just about to do the oil change and have a go at removing the injectors. ( Local lad up here has a mobile cleaning service at $38 each. )
But started to notice a petrol smell in the car. So pulled the inspection cover off and sure enough, the top of the fuel pump was weeping through a couple of cracks. Replaced the pump and the original issue has gone. Not saying that the injectors couldn't do with a clean and not sure what the fuel pump was doing to cause it. I'm guessing that there was a crack on the inside of the pump housing leading to low fuel pressure.   

NB can I put in a plug for aresespares.com.au 

Cheers