Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

State Divisions => Victoria => Topic started by: gerwil on December 26, 2020, 11:53:00 PM

Title: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: gerwil on December 26, 2020, 11:53:00 PM
Hi just wondering if someone has some thoughts on a fault I have. Been a very reliable car but had an issue starting about 10K kms ago (currently got 111K kms). A new set of plugs seemed to fix it. But unfortunately the fault has returned. After a day or so 'rest', it will not start on the first try. Always starts second go. And for the rest of the day starts every time like normal. No other symptoms. I've got a blue tooth scanner on order hoping that may shed light. Not a big issue but I'm concerned that she's warning me that action is required. I put a fuel line check valve in just after the fuel pump but no change. Someone suggested that I might be loosing fuel pressure requiring more cranks to fire.
Any thoughts appreciated.
Cheers
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: bazzbazz on December 27, 2020, 12:44:39 AM
This is a common issue with the 2.2JTS engine, the problem is usually down to one of two things -

A/ Build up on the intake valves (A common issue with direct injection engines)

B/ Dirty/Clogged fuel injectors

At the next service I suggest you try some Liqui-Moly Petrol Engine Intake Decarb before changing the oil. (Oil must be changed after using it) In addition put a bottle of Injector cleaner through the tank to see if it improves the situation.

If neither of these help then the only other course of action is to have the injectors removed and serviced/tested/cleaned.

(Have sent you a PM)
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: sketchl on December 27, 2020, 05:46:28 PM
Note that this issue of not starting on first go is actually a good thing as the 2.2JTS has an inherent issue of starving the cams of oil at first start up, so I normally turn over the engine a few times before starting.
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: gerwil on December 30, 2020, 02:51:46 PM
Not sure how you would 'turn over' a push button start engine. Mines the 2010 model which I believe the ECU is in complete control.
Also, I would think a modern day engine would not starve the cams of oil on start-up.
The fuel injector cleaner is on its second tank and has made no noticeable difference so far (always been 95 octane). The fault is 100% repeatable. If the injectors are clogged, then Id expect random starting and low fuel economy.
Still waiting for the scanner, covid delays I'm guessing.
Cheers 
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Alfatango on January 09, 2021, 03:21:42 AM
I have the exact same issue on my 159 3.2 jts ti. During winter it never starts on the first start of the day but during summer sometimes it does. Its always on the mornings on the first start as once you start driving its fine for the whole day.

A few mechanics have said its probably the fuel injectors or fuel pump. The fuel sender unit was changed. All the spark plugs, coils and battery were changed. I thought it might be a starter motor but its not.

Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: kaleuclint on January 09, 2021, 06:20:14 PM
Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?

Now THAT is a mantra for so many of us to live by!

At this point I'd miss the constant, friendly 'Check Engine' light beaming brightly.
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Craig_m67 on January 09, 2021, 06:38:18 PM

Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?

There is nothing more complicated in a modern day Alfa than there is in a fricken Corolla... you just need a motivated and experienced indie (or an analytical head and some software to read the ECU).

Owning an Alfa has nothing to do with putting up with faults, indeed that is something anybody can do with any brand/product.

Bazz has given some advice, if your in QLD maybe ring him and ask/book a look.

#notmeanttobesnarky, I have a love/meh relationship with all my Alfa’s
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: gerwil on January 10, 2021, 11:51:36 AM
Yes, will do, but just waiting for my scanner first to see if it points to something I can handle. Cleaning injectors is not a quick job but will give it a go if the scanner does not show anything. Still think its a fuel or ECU issue though as it's 100% repeatable, cold or warm weather, and only after a days rest. It's cute to think that it's acceptable because it's an Alfa, but I think we say that because we are at the end of our tether and need some justification to try and accept it  ;).
Cheers
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Alfatango on January 10, 2021, 04:29:28 PM
Yes, will do, but just waiting for my scanner first to see if it points to something I can handle. Cleaning injectors is not a quick job but will give it a go if the scanner does not show anything. Still think its a fuel or ECU issue though as it's 100% repeatable, cold or warm weather, and only after a days rest. It's cute to think that it's acceptable because it's an Alfa, but I think we say that because we are at the end of our tether and need some justification to try and accept it  ;).
Cheers

The best explanation I have heard is that it could be one or some of the fuel injectors are 'leaking' a bit and there is fuel being built up over night and the first start 'burns' it off. Please post the solution if you get it sorted. It may be that I will replace all the Injectors.
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Alfatango on January 10, 2021, 04:34:13 PM

Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?

There is nothing more complicated in a modern day Alfa than there is in a fricken Corolla... you just need a motivated and experienced indie (or an analytical head and some software to read the ECU).

On my GTs the beeping was the worst when the car decided something was wrong. At least make the beep pleasant if it is going to be a frequent occurrence. There is nothing worse than first thing in the morning before a coffee the car starts beeping randomly at you. Also the electrical system was bound to fail as I found wires just behind the bumper just dangling in the wind with no zero protection on them in the form of a cheap plastic/rubber outer covering. I think Toyota go over each bolt and wire multiple times hence why they last longer and keep their values. Alfa in the older models seemed to nail the styling and do that multiple times but when it came to the engineering it was a very aussie she'll be right approach. Maybe that's they are so popluar in Australia and they teamed up with Holden to do the 159 3.2 engine;D?
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: gerwil on January 23, 2021, 12:53:44 PM
Finally got a scanner that works. Ended up paying $69 from Jaycar. The app they recommend, 'Touque'  worked but others did not. Wanted to use the Multiecuscan app. This is first time I've got a scanner that works. At least manufactures are starting to write code to cover the different protocols. And it should not be necessary to get a dedicated expensive scanner just to read fault codes. Maybe would have been better to leave the interface/app in the hands of the individual manufactures and then they sell it as an optional extra. The attached pic is of the Chinese one I was waiting on which initially worked but then the lights only worked if I put pressure on the plug. Suspect a broken circuit board connector. And the plug was very tight. Still only $20 but lesson learned.(not sure if pic attached as the preview did not show it)

So only two faults P1036 (O2 sensor Bank 1 sensor 2) and U1600 MBUSY open. Cleared both and they have not returned. The U1600 error points to the fob and that could have occurred when I had the battery replaced some time ago. 
So back to square one. An extra bit of info, when I press the start button for the first start, it does 'catch' initially but then just cranks. And its 100% repeatable (not sure about the delay between starts but over night at least. Second start catches straight away. So maybe a ECU issue. Thought I might 'reboot' it. Would disconnecting the battery be the best way?
Cheers
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: bazzbazz on January 23, 2021, 03:45:36 PM
It is NOT the ECU!!!

The problem will most likely be the injectors as it is a common issue with your model.

Disconnecting the battery will NOT reset anything in the Engine ECU, to do so you need to use MES and reset the Eng ECU parameters with that.
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: sportiva on January 23, 2021, 04:50:06 PM

Is this worth trying to chase down or is it something that is put down to owning an alfa?

There is nothing more complicated in a modern day Alfa than there is in a fricken Corolla... you just need a motivated and experienced indie (or an analytical head and some software to read the ECU).

On my GTs the beeping was the worst when the car decided something was wrong. At least make the beep pleasant if it is going to be a frequent occurrence. There is nothing worse than first thing in the morning before a coffee the car starts beeping randomly at you. Also the electrical system was bound to fail as I found wires just behind the bumper just dangling in the wind with no zero protection on them in the form of a cheap plastic/rubber outer covering. I think Toyota go over each bolt and wire multiple times hence why they last longer and keep their values. Alfa in the older models seemed to nail the styling and do that multiple times but when it came to the engineering it was a very aussie she'll be right approach. Maybe that's they are so popluar in Australia and they teamed up with Holden to do the 159 3.2 engine;D?

LOL This is so drama filled, it's like back stage off Broadway and none of the drama people have had their expections met.
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Colin Edwards on January 25, 2021, 10:08:53 AM
Makes sense it could be dirty / partially clogged injectors.

Cold engines need a rich mixture for reliable ignition.  If the spray from the injectors is not a fine mist or is misdirected or excessively wets the spark plug, unreliable cold starting is possible.  Issue less likely on a hot engine as the larger than ideal fuel droplets likely with iffy injectors will evaporate a bit / reduce in size and raise the mixture strength allowing more reliable ignition / starting.

Couple of doses of say Liqui Moly injector cleaner might help - cant hurt!  If that doesn't work have the injectors professionally removed / tested / cleaned / re-tested.

Colin
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: gerwil on January 25, 2021, 11:41:05 PM
Hi, yes, I agree with your argument. Dirty or faulty injectors would display this fault. But 100% consistently on both hot and cold engines? Just finished 2 tanks of injector cleaner but no difference. I'm due an oil change soon so if nothing else changes, I'll pull the injectors out and clean/replace them.
Thanks for your replies.
Cheers
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Colin Edwards on January 29, 2021, 09:25:37 AM
Given the mist from a direct injection engine like the JTS does not condense on cold surfaces like the inlet tract and inlet valve, its fair to assume the mixture during a cold start will be leaner than that of a port injection engine.  Happy to be corrected! 
The mixture in the combustion chamber at the moment of an ignition event could be leaner or of the incorrect shape if the injectors are iffy.

Could it be possible the ECU does not know the engine needs a slightly richer micture due to the coolant temperature?  Is the temperature sensor iffy?  Does the JTS use a temperature sensor specific to "cold" starting?

A new set of injectors could be pricey!
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Alfatango on February 23, 2021, 10:21:17 AM
I chucked in the Nulon Pro Strength Petrol System Clean a couple of weeks ago and it didn't anything at first. It could be a coincidence but I put the Nulon Extreme Stress Engine Oil in recently and it seems to have solved the cold start issue or at least helped with it. It could have been because its hot as well but it started a few times first time after the car was sitting for a couple of days which it usually didn't before.

https://www.sparesbox.com.au/part/nulon-pro-strength-petrol-system-extreme-clean-500ml-pec?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsZPwktD-7gIVhNeWCh1l5wbGEAQYBCABEgLb5vD_BwE

https://www.sparesbox.com.au/part/nulon-pro-strength-extreme-performance-engine-treatment-500ml-xpet?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIzpbC6tD-7gIVk7mWCh0KKgxDEAQYAyABEgKZhfD_BwE
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: Alfatango on March 10, 2021, 12:19:06 PM
Update, since the Nulon additions as above, the car is starting first time and it could be a placebo but the engine sounds angrier and seems to drive with a bit less effort. And by angrier I mean if you watch Street Outlaws and they do a great pass, you can hear the engine being in the zone.
Title: Re: 159 2.2 JTS not starting first time.
Post by: gerwil on June 11, 2021, 10:54:00 PM
So I think I've solved it. Was just about to do the oil change and have a go at removing the injectors. ( Local lad up here has a mobile cleaning service at $38 each. )
But started to notice a petrol smell in the car. So pulled the inspection cover off and sure enough, the top of the fuel pump was weeping through a couple of cracks. Replaced the pump and the original issue has gone. Not saying that the injectors couldn't do with a clean and not sure what the fuel pump was doing to cause it. I'm guessing that there was a crack on the inside of the pump housing leading to low fuel pressure.   

NB can I put in a plug for aresespares.com.au 

Cheers