Author Topic: Track day brakes  (Read 8822 times)

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warsch

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Track day brakes
« on: September 25, 2017, 02:19:09 PM »
Now that I'm taking my 156 to various events it became apparent that the brakes are crap. No surprise that worn out brakes of an unknown brand aren't up to the job.

I know there's the whole GTA brake upgrade option, but for now I'd stick to standard sizes and calipers.

First, should I go for slotted and/or drilled discs? The price difference is negligible so it's really down to the fact if slotted/drilled are any better. Are they?

Second, brake pads. I'm thinking of going EBC redstuff or yellowstuff. Yellowstuff are more of a track day pads, but EBC claim they are still decent while cold. I'm not too concerned about daily driving as I'm pretty sure they'll be no worse that what I've got. However, hillclimbs are run with cold brakes mostly so I want pads with a good cold bite. Has anyone got any feedback on EBC? Or should I rather go Ferodo DS2500?

Paul Gulliver

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #1 on: September 25, 2017, 02:54:19 PM »
If you are driving the car to and from the track for a Saturday / Sunday meeting don't go for the top spec race pad. They will never get up to temperature, squeak like buggery  and probably not work on the Monday - Friday commute. I have a twin spark Alfetta GTV that I drive to and from race meeting and use occasionally during the week. You will have a lot more fun if you CHANGE THE BRAKE FLUID REGUARLY and use EBC Greens ( or similar) for starters. Also you will pretty quickly learn that in an underpowered car like a 2 litre Alfa the worst thing you can do at the track  is PUT YOUR FOOT ON THE BRAKE PEDAL. A good lap time is usually always predicated  on slow in fast out ( not the other way around)  and maintaining as high a corner speed as possible.
Big improvements can also be had with better shockers and substantially stiffer springs. But beware once you get to this point you are on a very slippery slope. Going a few seconds faster  can be very addictive and  expensive, but possibly as much fun as you can have and still have your pants on.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 03:08:00 PM by Paul Gulliver »
Paul Gulliver
Present
2017 Silver Giulia Veloce
1979 Silver Alfa 116 GTV Twin Spark
1973 Red Alfa 105 2.0 GTV

Past
2013 Giulietta QV
2006 Black 159 2.2 J
1970 Dutch Blue Series 2 1750
1975 Blue Alfetta Sedan 1.8
1981 Piper Yellow Alfetta GTV 2000
1985 Red Alfetta GTV2.0
1989 White Alfa 164
2000 156

warsch

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #2 on: September 25, 2017, 03:20:00 PM »
From what I gathered on the internet (forums & EBC website), EBC redstuff don't need warming up, yellowstuff work good from cold as well. Neither is top spec race, EBC claim both are track/road use.

Fair point about braking as little as possible. But even "a little" on a track is heaps more intensive than in a daily use. And I'm not too concerned about motorkhanas and hillclimbs, but more about doing few laps on Lakeside or QLD Raceway. Will EBC greens be ok in that case?

New brake fluid obviously goes in, there's no question.

Paul Gulliver

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #3 on: September 25, 2017, 03:50:00 PM »
I'm a Victorian so I can't really comment of the Queensland tracks. If you want that early bite , you will get that with the EBC greens or the  Ferodo DS2500's . I have used both and never ran out of brakes . The brake fluid is really important . Stay on top of that ( bleed before every meeting) and  you shouldn't have any problems. Pads are pretty cheap so try a few.
As I said if it is a stock 156 once you have got the brakes sorted out , there are some pretty big gains to be had from springs & Shockers
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 03:53:41 PM by Paul Gulliver »
Paul Gulliver
Present
2017 Silver Giulia Veloce
1979 Silver Alfa 116 GTV Twin Spark
1973 Red Alfa 105 2.0 GTV

Past
2013 Giulietta QV
2006 Black 159 2.2 J
1970 Dutch Blue Series 2 1750
1975 Blue Alfetta Sedan 1.8
1981 Piper Yellow Alfetta GTV 2000
1985 Red Alfetta GTV2.0
1989 White Alfa 164
2000 156

warsch

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 04:04:57 PM »
Wow, I knew staying on top of brake fluid changes is important, but I didn't realize it has to be that often. If that's the case, I can swap brake pads as well before the race anyway.

What would you recommend re: shocks & springs?

I am not planning some fancy options now, as I'm pretty with my current skills I would much better off spending money on more track time and/or tutoring. But worth knowing what to do later on.

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2017, 04:19:40 PM »
First thing Iíd suggest is new brake hoses all Ďround. When you change the pads give the caliper yokes some love so the calipers themselves and your new pads donít hang up. Wurth CU800 is handy to have, the other copper greases are inferior by comparison.

Paul Gulliver

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 04:30:24 PM »
Brake fluid degrades over time . Assuming you go to 3 -5 meetings a year, bleeding your brakes before each meeting just means the whole system remains reasonably fresh, and unlikely to boil. I don't know who the go to person for shock's & springs advice is in Queensland . But in Victoria you could try Hugh Harrison or Mick Aarons @ Monza Motors. He race's the ex Alan Jones /Colin Bond Alfetta GTV . and a relatively standard  2 litre 932 series GTV with some basic modifications that he is managing very respectable times in.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 04:52:10 PM by Paul Gulliver »
Paul Gulliver
Present
2017 Silver Giulia Veloce
1979 Silver Alfa 116 GTV Twin Spark
1973 Red Alfa 105 2.0 GTV

Past
2013 Giulietta QV
2006 Black 159 2.2 J
1970 Dutch Blue Series 2 1750
1975 Blue Alfetta Sedan 1.8
1981 Piper Yellow Alfetta GTV 2000
1985 Red Alfetta GTV2.0
1989 White Alfa 164
2000 156

Neil Choi

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #7 on: September 25, 2017, 08:05:45 PM »
Go EBC Red DP31061
Have used them in all my Alfa's including 156's and other cars. 
I can't seem to find yellows DP41061


Or try others.

warsch

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2017, 11:04:00 PM »
Thanks for the input everyone. Sourcing EBC yellow isn't a problem, there's heaps on eBay, but it seems like they have some quality issues. I've got some good reviews on Ferodo DS2500, seems like I should try them.

And yes, I will definitely change brake fluid and rebuild calipers if necessary and will apply proper grease for pins & pads. New braided hoses are also a part of the upgrade, but that's not a question, really. That's why I didn't mention any of that.

CitroŽnbender

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #9 on: September 25, 2017, 11:31:52 PM »
Bleeding can be fun with modern ESP/ABS blocs, even with the diagnostic tool. Allow lots of fluid, you might consider a pressure (not vacuum) type bleeder too.

aggie57

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 01:15:05 AM »
100% on the brake fluid. Alan Goodall taught me that, his philosophy was to bleed the brakes before every event and once you start doing that the difference is amazing. Once I understood and accepted that I was able to run my GTV6 with a 3.0 12 valve for several years on standard brakes, no problems.

So yes, if youíre using the car at all competitively then bleeding the brakes regularly is essential. Saves a lot of $ and a potentially lot of heart ache.

Do modern Alfaís use single piston calipers?  If so do they suffer uneven pad wear like the old VL calipers did?  Just asking, I have no experience with these cars on the track but definitely something Iíd be looking at.
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

alanm

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 07:10:39 AM »
All good advice, from then brains trust.
Neil's recommendation re. A good brand of pad for your car is definitely worth consideration - he and his sons have probably done more laps in a 156 TS than anyone else in Victoria. The cars performance is pretty impressive in my opinion.
Al.
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Colin Edwards

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 04:12:02 PM »
+1 for braided brake hoses and regular fluid flushing and bleeding.  I'd be bleeding brakes again at the end of the days sprinting - especially if your driving the car home!  MOTUL RBF660.

Also try and complete as much of the "cool down" lap without touching the brakes, leave the car in gear and don't use the handbrake to hold the car in the pits. Even park the car facing into the wind if possible! 
Present
2020 Giulietta Veloce
2018 Abarth 124 Spider
1987 75 3.0

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2015 Giulietta QV
2009 159 3.2 Ti Q4
2012 Giulietta TCT Veloce
2006 147 Ti 2 door Selespeed
1979 Alfasud Ti 1.5

Sailor209

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2017, 01:57:27 PM »
I use EBC Reds on my cars for road use..they are superb with no need to warm up, no squeal and long life.
I have used them on a trackday in my MX5..they did not survive!
I swap out to EBC Yellows and they work well and can be left in if I get a bit time poor with only the very first gentle stop of a morning seeming to need a little extra pressure.
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Craig_m67

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Re: Track day brakes
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2017, 05:47:36 PM »
I have a "set" of 330brembos, rotors, uprights, GTA steering idler arms with new hub bearings and 2L hubs pressed in - built and available, complete plug and play. They came off a GT and were destined for sooty but the hubs (splines) supplied were not correct, and I can't be arsed pressing them out and getting new hub bearings again. Make me an offer, they're in Brisbane, sitting in the shed, gathering dust, looking forlorn and shiney
'66 Duetto (lacework of doom)
'73 1600 GT Junior (ensconced)
'03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon (daily driver)