Just wondering what everyone's thoughts are on this. If your car was built in, say November 2001, but first registered and complianced in January 2002, would you call it a 2002 car on a personalised number plate, or a 2001? What is the official position on it? Would the model year of a car built late in the year like that actually be the following year?
If it was built in 2001, then its a 2001 car, rego has no effect on it, if its a popular car, then its registed, a few months after the build date, an honest description would say, 'built in November 2001 and first registed in February 2002', an example of this was the AU Falcon Lemon, they sat round in Dealers and Auction places for years until they could shift them, 'first built in 2001, and registed in 2005', if you see what i am getting at, how could you call it a 2002 model, when the build date is 2001?, Colin.
I'd call it a 2001 car based on build date. Thats the date that it was being worked on in the factory, that's the interesting date. The cars birth year if you like. Compliance date isn't very interesting. My 2c.
Build date, released date and registered dates all have different connotations. We can all appreciate what the build date and the registered dates mean. However the release date could be recognised as the build date because no model was ever released in between and so therefor the effective "build" date is the released date and accordingly the current model of the year irrespective when the ACTUAL build date took place.
In practice given shipping times, distribution times, getting ADR's if necessary etc could mean 6-8 months of delalys and hence moves a September model into April model of the following year.
So for example we have build date 1999 but a 2000 Model. Happens all the time.
My 147 was sold and registered July 2002 but built in 2001. It was documented as a 2001 but classified an MY2002 ( I think they were only offered for sale from 2002?)
This is the way I see it. The "year" or model year is 2001, which represents the model of the car. Like the chassis number, it is a technical specification only. It should be classified MY2001.
The "age" of the car is referenced to 2002 since, regardless of the build date, the car is still brand new and does not encounter any wear up untill it is actually sold and then used. Most items, not just cars are manufactured some time before they are sold to the end user. If it were a TV, it would be "new" from the date you bought it.
So I think it should be a 2002 Alfa 147 (MY2001).
A good friend of mine in NZ is a Fiat/Alfa dealer and he just about fell off his seat when I told him cars here are documented by thier build year. Over there all documentation is as of the sale date or registration date. He said they would not be able to sell for example, a December 2001 build car in January 2002 if it were to be documented as a 2001 for full price. Buyers would just find a current year car to buy which is a little crazy. Dealers would not risk buying stock at the end of the year. The final process of a pre delivery is to reset the odometer to zero before the new owner pics it up. They usually have up to 30-40km on the clock by the time they are sold.
Many European manufacturers build cars by model year. Typically The "year" starts after the August factory shutdown. So a car built in September or October is often MY20'+1'. That is, built sept 2001 but MY2002. Very common. It's driven by the US market.
When it is registered is totally irrelevant except to the anxious first owner who wants to protect its resale value.
Example - my 911 is a MY2009 car. Built August 2008, first registered May 2009. I'd happily accept ot being called a 2009 car but it's not, it's a 2008 car.
Interesting discussion guys. Thanks. The TV analogy is a good one. It is tricky when you know the build date of the thing and it is different from the sale date. With TVs we don't worry about it because we don't know when they were built. Even though aggie57's Porsche was built in August, 2008, it was a new car in May 2009 and on top of that is a 2009 model. My daughter's Alfetta GTV is a good example because it was built very late in 1981, but it has all the bits of a 1982 car. It is clearly not a 1981 model. It gets more ridiculous with our 164, which was built mid 1990, but first registered in 1992. The fact that it wasn't driven for two years makes it very different in terms of wear and tear from a car that was built and driven in 1990. In this case the car has the bits of a 1990 model, not a 1992. Chronologically it is 22 years old, but wear and tear wise it is only 20 years old. How does all this affect insurance? There is probably no definitive answer to this conundrum.
New is factory fresh - three months tops. It only takes six weeks to ship a car around the palnet, clear customs etc.
I had a Series3 Sprint that was built late 1985 with Australian compliance noted as early 1988. Didn't bother me as i was the second owner (1991 40Ks), however i wouldn't have bought it new, it clearly wasn't. Any issues should have been addressed under warranty. It was always, in my mind (and everybodys after) a 1985 car, with all the age related issues belts, tensioners, fluids, tyres, RUST etc that came with that.
It passed away after 430K hard kilometres; one clutch, a water pump, a head gasket and a front wheel bearing oh, and several second gear synchros. Only rust was in the roof around the tailgate washer. Cracks in the inner wings/chassis rails killed it.
Loved that car.
It used to be a big deal years ago when used cars were worth something, like a 2 year old car would be worth more than a 3 year old car, so you would gild the lilly a bit, when dealing with spare parts, recalls and rogo, you usually go off your chassis number as opposed to saying you have a 2002 156, because it could be a twin spark or JTS, to add confusion, and cars sitting round for years before being sold is not a good thing, as the oil seals can dry out and the cam belts cold weld themselves to pulleys and tear themselves to pieces on startup, Colin.
Quote from: colcol on November 26, 2012, 10:22:44 PM
and cars sitting round for years before being sold is not a good thing, as the oil seals can dry out and the cam belts cold weld themselves to pulleys and tear themselves to pieces on startup, Colin.
I wonder what they did about the cambelts in the 164s that sat around for two years in terms of the replacement interval. If they went from the date of sale the belts would have been two years past their use by date when the three years came up. Did they have some failures?
What happens when you see a car you want to buy and its advertised as a 2007 model but on the rego it's stated as 2006 (the build year) but the compliance date is 2007? What year would you say the car is and what would it be sold as, 2006 or 2007?
In my opinion it really is an issue especially on the secondhand market when a situation like the above arises. I know most dealers go off the compliance date for brand new cars in order to to keep things current. Year of first registration doesn't mean anything to me. I only go off build an compliance date.
In some instances Alfas are produced for Australian delivery post mid year holiday. Say August build and then imported to Australia through usual process to distributor and then for sale by the dealer.
So by the time the car hits the showroom, it could be December or more likely January the next year.
Cheers
Quote from: ANG156 on November 27, 2012, 09:18:27 PM
What happens when you see a car you want to buy and its advertised as a 2007 model but on the rego it's stated as 2006 (the build year) but the compliance date is 2007? What year would you say the car is and what would it be sold as, 2006 or 2007?
In my opinion it really is an issue especially on the secondhand market when a situation like the above arises. I know most dealers go off the compliance date for brand new cars in order to to keep things current. Year of first registration doesn't mean anything to me. I only go off build an compliance date.
That car would be a 2006. MY2007 is marketing, and dealer tells you whatever they need to maximise the price, compliance is Govt admin. Still a 2006 car.
...so for buyers in the second hand market looking to ensure the vehicle has had minimal use and represents the best opportunity of buy a good one should have the first registration date as a primary consideration as it is the best reflection of how much actual use the car may have had.
Quote from: MD on November 28, 2012, 08:07:11 AM
...so for buyers in the second hand market looking to ensure the vehicle has had minimal use and represents the best opportunity of buy a good one should have the first registration date as a primary consideration as it is the best reflection of how much actual use the car may have had.
but not how its been looked after..... :)
True
I'm finding this little facet of automotive marketing annoying at the moment in my search for a 147 for my daughter. It doesn't help that Alfa's are commonly distinguished in its models by a number 147, 156 or a name. I'm racking my head over the 147 which had a facelift mid year in 2005, so I'm comparing pricing on two different looking 147s of the same release year? I've found that the vehicle's compliance date is what transport authorities use as the vehicles model year as this is actually its release date by the manufacturer. Build date is added for consumer information, cause we just like to know when it came off the factory floor.
If you look at it from the factory's perspective, you need to time the completion of a reasonable amount of vehicles to meet consumer demands. So it stands to reason to have XXXX amount of 2006 models completed and ready for shipping in 2005. If you start debating build date as the model year, is a December build any different to a January build? I'll also just add here, as some have already touched on it, when I sell a car I show it as my rego papers indicate (ie its compliance year). As a buyer I point out its build date and make a point of it during price negotiations.
Quote from: Cool Jesus on November 28, 2012, 11:40:12 PM
I'll also just add here, as some have already touched on it, when I sell a car I show it as my rego papers indicate (ie its compliance year). As a buyer I point out its build date and make a point of it during price negotiations.
You're correct there Cool Jesus. However what if the car has been registered as a 2006 but compliance as a 2007? Then its obvious a 2006 model so one should pay 2006 value.
ANG, I think you'll find that here in OZ, compliance is its year model. So you'd have an '07 model.
It sounds like there may be some confusion here about terminology, as I can see from posts that they are being intermingled. My definitions are;
1. Build date - date vehicle came off production line at factory and manufacturerer label affixed
2. Compliance date - date vehicle was received in AUS by dealership/importer (such as ATECO or Alfa Romeo Australia, etc) and label affixed to show Federal ADR compliance. Vehicle can not be registered for road use until this label is affixed. I said release date in my earlier post, but its actually when it is received by the importer to sell on the market (usual pre-ordered for a customer). You'll find compliance and registration dates are inveriable on the same day or at most a day apart. Worst case the dealer may be adding some aftermarket over priced dealer add-ons so the span may be longer(but this would be unusual).
3. Registration date - the day Cool Jesus purchased his 159 and registered it at the RTA 8)
PS... Just purchased an '02 147 for my little princess. Black over red leather, my mini Bella as the wife is calling it ::)
Quote from: Cool Jesus on November 30, 2012, 12:44:18 AM
ANG, I think you'll find that here in OZ, compliance is its year model.
You'll find compliance and registration dates are inveriable on the same day or at most a day apart. Worst case the dealer may be adding some aftermarket over priced dealer add-ons so the span may be longer(but this would be unusual).
Sorry but that's just wrong.
I have a 1980 registered GTV sitting downstairs that was built in mid-1979 and has a compliance date of August 1979. Registration and compliance can be months apart and neither makes any difference at all to the model year of the car.
My 911 was built in August 2008, has a compliance of September 2008 and was registered in May 2009. It is absolutely a MY09 car.
My 105 GTV was manufactured on 14th November 1972, sold to ARA 1st December 1972 and was registered in 1973. As far as VicRoads are concerned its a 1973 car.
Ah ha, I've touched a cord with aggie here. You beat me to the punch on another term thats used for vehicles. I'll use my recent purchase as an example, Its a 2003 147 - MY2002. I'm assuming the MYxxxx is Manufacture Year? My question here is, is this 'MYxxxx' a build date, a compliance date or something else? My guess is that the 2003 147 is an '02 model run?
Aggie, your starting to talk of a vintage era, pre electronics and www. I did add that compliance and rego can be longer apart in date. Anyhow, lets follow your point with either the 911 or 105. Actual didn't some older 105s only have a build number? Back on point, 911 built '08, ADR complianced later in '08, however it isn't first registered until 2012. What's the year model? Is it a MY2012? As these dates near the end of a year or surparse the new year, I'll conceede that the manufacturer could very well have built the cars for sale as the new years model run (such as your 105).
Another point that may be determinative in what's my model year? Aren't manufacturer's required to submit homologation papers or similar paperwork to show the model characteristics and testing procedures to the Government they seek to import to in order to show ADR compliance? These papers would give VIN numbers that relate to the model.
Actually as I've been carefully typing my words here, (its very easy to put noses out of joint I'm finding), the MYxxxx term si starting to sound like a model run to me. This could account for the time difference between compliance and registartion for aggie's 911. Or it just sat in the warehouse all that time cause no one was buying them ::) ?
I'm not upset in the least. The internet is awash with misinformation.
MY09 / MY2009 = Model Year 2009. Standard industry jargon for a particular spec. See http://www.redbook.com.au/cars/research/Alfa-Romeo/147/2003 for your 147.
And yes, my 911 sat in the dealer for several months because nobody wanted a basic manual C2S. More fool them.
Thanks aggie, its Model Year, makes sense.
Oh good, glad to hear I had n't ruffled any fears. I'm not up for upsetting anyone. Don't know if its just me, whether I've met the poster or not, I give their text a voice in my head and I try to get a feel of how the conversation is travelling. In doing this I also try to keep the replies short and to the point as much as I can. Anyhow, isn't that what they call destiny, that 911 was meant to be yours ;D
if yer askin' me, build date is all that counts...
i get the TV analogy, but it ain't TVs it's cars which are sensitive on MY...
that and dealers wouldn't be doing end of model year 'plate run outs' at the end of the yr, every yr, if it didn't matter.
And I have the official answer!
I was watching Judge Judy and this came up. She asked what year, they guy responded it was an xx but built the year before. Judge Judy gave a disapproving glare and declared it was the "build year" and that was that, no more discussion was allowed!