I'm getting sick of riding the bike into work on these cold winter mornings and my ever reliable MGB with leaking roof and no heater isn't cutting it!
So I'm biting the bullet and buying a 'modern' car. I'm looking for some advice on what to get. This is a second car for us that I will drive into work and visit projects usually down the Peninsula (probably 5-7000KM p.a).
I will need to occasionally put our 2 small children in the back for school drop-offs etc.
The wife says "please don't buy another old car with no a/c or one that needs to stay in the garage when it is raining". So I have narrowed my choice with an Alfa badge down to a/ 3.2 GT or b/ 147GTA. I am aware of the typical maintenance routines required for these vehicles (i.e cambelts @ 3 years / 60,000km, water pumps and Q2 replacement) but what I am really interested in knowing from those with personal experience is can these two beauties comfortably sustain 2x sub-4ft kids in the back and are they fairly reliable.
How quickly do they chew through the brakes with normal driving?
I'm also getting mixed feedback about whether the Q2 conversion is completely necessary so this is quite confusing. Whilst it is a desirable item on my checklist, there appears to be more second hand cars without the Q2 (particularly GT's) then there are with. I like the idea of some club track work one day but the reality is I don't expect to use the car for anything more spirited than an EMR. At this point I'm placing more importance on finding a nice clean example with a great service history that has been well loved over a car with lots aftermarket bling.
I have had a drive of a GT and apart from the horrendous turning circle, I confess to having fallen in love with nearly everything else about the car. I am keen to compare this to a 147GTA.
Any feedback would be appreciated.
can't compare the rear seats - but i assure you - for the 300nm 3.2s, the q2 or quaife is quite essential unless u don't mind buying a new gearbox when the stock diff goes bang...
handy performance upgrade too, i only have the 2.5 and it still makes a massive difference to the grip, handling and feedback.
Sorry can't comment on GT V 147, however, the GT does also have the advantage of a large storage area in the back.
Also, as to the Q2, there are those that have known about the issue and been careful and still busted their diff.
Like Clint Eastwood says: Do you feel lucky ;D
Ok I've been convinced me to factor a Q2 into the budget.
Can anyone chime in on the current 'real' cost of this conversion (assuming the parts are sourced locally).
I think mine was about 8 hours labour and the part locally was about $1100. I got the part from the UK though and saved quite a bit. The labour can also vary depending on the mechanics experience in the matter.
By the way I have a GTA. Great car on the whole and pretty reliable. The back seat in mine comfortably fits 2 adults once they're in, but the hard part is getting in and out. I find the angle of the rear seats makes them quite accomodating though once you're seated .
One last thing is that the ride on the GTA is very firm...not sure If the GT is better because it's more of a tourer than the GTA. I'm about to upgrade to Kong fsd's to improve my ride comfort.
Anyway I'm sure you will be happy either way .
With two kids, you need 4 doors. How about a 156 GTA like this one that GottaBRed spotted http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-156-2002-13017682?silo=Stock&cr=2&eapi=2&vertical=Car&__N=1216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294967249%204294967222%204294739086 (http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-156-2002-13017682?silo=Stock&cr=2&eapi=2&vertical=Car&__N=1216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294967249%204294967222%204294739086)?
As above, $1100ish is a realistic price these days, though possibly up to $1400 (was more like $2K when they first came out; but mechanics now have the job down pat and can do them quickly). You can buy from EB Spares (UK); quick and reliable. Alternatively, the Quaife diff is meant to be stronger and offer at least the same performance; autolusso (UK) is a source for these. Mind you, I have never heard/read of a Q2 breaking, even when used on track cars.
Part of the (included) cost is new bearings and oil seals. The above two suppliers will know about these, and can sell them together.
Both the GT and 147GTA will be a little awkward to get into the rear seats. But smaller kids shouldn't mind this; door sills might end up scuffed over time. Slightly more leg room in the GT (same wheelbase as 156), and bigger boot.
Styling is a subjective preference. I prefer the GT. An earlier model 147GTA will be considerably cheaper; might have cloth seats; will have smaller 305mm front discs/brakes. Late-2004 models (incl Monza) will the same 330mm front setup as the GT, and all should have leather; might have factory sunroof too (Monza will). Option of Selespeed on the 147GTA, and its a far more robust setup compared with the TS sillyspeed.
147s in 'top condition' seem harder to find. Probably because most are older, so more wear and tear. You usually find this on the driver's seat side/lower bolters, interior door grips, window switches, steering wheel stereo controls, climiate control dials, gearknob.
Ongoing running costs are very reasonable IMO. There's only 'expected' wear and tear, like tyres, brake pads/discs, suspension bushings.
Is a 156GTA not on the list for any reason? It's probably the best compromise of them all, in terms of practicality and performance, and I prefer the styling compared with the 147GTA. Virtually all will have 305mm brakes though (only a couple late-2004 models in Aus with 330mm); but EB Spares sell an upgrade kit with new calipers, discs, brake lines, which should be under $1500 delivered and to have fitted. No VDC (vehicle dynamic control) either.
:)
Thanks for the advice and comments gentlemen. Great 'food for thought'.
I guess I shouldn't discount a 156GTA which is without doubt a brilliant (and practical) package. I do prefer the styling of the GT over the 156 and I just figured that for similar money I would be better off with a lower mileage newer car. Saying that, I have the feeling the 156 will ultimately be the better investment :-\
to correct Shiny, not all 147 GTA Monza's have a sunroof. It was an optional upgrade, not standard. Mine doesn't have one. (my 156 monza does though, so not sure if that was an option or standard)
The 156gta is an awesome piece of machinery, however the 147gta are amazing value for money when you consider they were 60-70k brand new and have the same engine as the 156gta but you can now pick them up for between 14k and 25k depending on kms, condition and age.....
Depending on your budget I think the 147gta offers best value for money at current prices.
A busy weekend viewing 3 GT's. The one most untidy in the body had the best service history and the one that presented the best has covered 85,000km over the last 5 years with no change of cambelt! None of the cars had a appeared to have Q2 either.
A common trait seems to be that the auto window mechanism plate appears to want to leap of the door, badges fade badly and the front spoiler cops a beating. Fairly minor things that are easily replaced / repaired. Overall I think the GT is a great package.
I like the standard 17" multispoke wheels but the one I am swaying towards has experienced its fair share of 'gutter rash'. has anyone had success having these wheels repaired or alternatively can they still be bought new (genuine or repro)?
I was aware that the GT was released with no spare wheel but I noticed that the area where a spare would normally sit but accommodates a foam casing for the compressor and puncture repair appears to be big enough to fit a spare?? Has anyone taken this foam out and dropped a standard wheel in its place?
Thanks in advance.
Quote from: pasey25 on July 19, 2012, 11:02:59 AM
to correct Shiny, not all 147 GTA Monza's have a sunroof.
Good info. 8)
Here you go Twistybits, this might be worth a look, I got cold feet, for a number of reasons, main one being DISTANCE. I'm in Bris Vegas, I did have a plane reservation but decided to bail before we got off the ground.(The Moths have been into the parachutes again!) I did think about it though.
<<http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-gt-2004-13048866?silo=Stock&cr=10&eapi=2&vertical=Car&__N=1216%201246%201247%201252%201282%204294967249%204294967229%20245>>
This car may well be known to some members, if so please feel free to offer advice I only noticed it a couple of days ago.
My research tells me this is/was a repairable write-off and from the images it looks as if that has been done. How well remains the point. PPRS search states as a result of "collision,n.s.w. 2009, blah blah blah
My experience (when I listen) tells me, when something looks to good to be true .... then it probably is.
My guess also sold at auction in NSW if your privy to additional info or are prepared to use the user-pay services more may be revealed re the origins and bona fides of this car.
It's unregistered and has or perhaps had some form of VicRoads permit
I'm certainly puzzled (to put it mildly) that if the vehicle has had all repairs effected then why has it not been registered in lovely Victoria?
That may be patently obvious from a couple of metres but at couple of states away it's hard to tell. Images and fair words ...mmm ....not a very solid premise.
If you're in a position to view this black beauty,even better through the eyes of a pro, it could be the ticket as it's as cheap as chips IMO, but there must be a reason, so look very hard.If your prepared for or could spring for some work that either hasn't yet been done or needs doing anyway this could be an option, it could also be a hat full of #%&* holes..... So be careful!
Someone who knows their apples will be a very big help here and may save you from a poor decision, it may also be a true gem and hope they'd advise you so.
There's perhaps a little more oxidation than I would expect on some of the alloy components engine wise (in the images), so look for water damage throughout the car maybe even premature rust. Caveat Emptor !!! could not apply more fully, be very circumspect.
This vehicle was likely acquired via a "Salvage Auction" and therefore the prospects of any sort of Providence is remote,and less likely still any logbooks or service history, save perhaps for the records reciepts/invoices for parts and work done to effect repair by current owner.
The latter will be crucial to your chances of registering the vehicle .....anywhere! So you'll need all that documentation as originals not copies to veiw and keep if you purchase.
As for it's service history it's alledged to have only 54,000Kms or thereabouts and had a cambelt change (I dare say it's first) not too sure who or when.
It hasn't really had a history,if you can call 50 thou a history, prior to it's collision. I would very much doubt it has had a Q2 fitted.So factor that in.
Cheers,
Andy
"when something looks to good to be true .... then it probably is"
Thanks Andy
I also spotted this 'black beauty' yesterday and tried valiantly to leave a message but the sellers voice mail box was full I resorted to sending a text message.
I tried again this morning and got through. After confirming that the car was purchased as a write-off at the auctions but repaired I also question WHY?????? you wouldn't register the car. I was told that the sellers son repaired the car but was now not in a position to register it. Before I could delve a little deeper, the seller said that she was expecting someone from Brisbane to view the car tomorrow and she promised to hold onto it until after the inspection.
Despite this being a potential bargain, to be honest, this make me very nervous. It could end up being a very nice looking parts car?
I will try again tomorrow.....nothing ventured, nothing gained! ???
QuoteMy research tells me this is/was a repairable write-off and from the images it looks as if that has been done. How well remains the point
QuoteMy experience (when I listen) tells me, when something looks to good to be true .... then it probably is.
Quoteit's as cheap as chips IMO, but there must be a reason
QuoteI'm certainly puzzled (to put it mildly) that if the vehicle has had all repairs effected then why has it not been registered in lovely Victoria?
I think you've answered your own questions here Andy!
Hi Guys,
Complete agreement from me Rory, they weren't really questions more statements/postulations urging caution than anything else.
Twistybits, I was the the fella from Brisbane, but as I've said, I bailed out. I have notified the woman you've mentioned and her voice mailbox being full is a pain but she does respond.
It was a long way to travel with 10K in my pocket and I just got a bit toey walking into a potential "situation" on my pat malone.
Risks I took in my 20s are not taken these days ..... experience has taught me, they always hurt, when it goes pearshape.
I'm not a punter anymore ...... unless I KNOW I'm going to win.
Cheers,
Andy
Hi guys,
I saw this as well and was attracted by by the price, condition and low kms.
I have since had to learn about what a "repairable write-off is"! (Thanks to all the internet blogs, what did we used to do in the old days when we wanted to know stuff!). There seem to be plenty of people who have reasonably happy stories, and a few hard-luck stories.
I spoke to "Betty" and she advises a Lance Dixon service history, and it was a light front impact. She has receipts from the repair, so in theory you could see how bad it was from how much work had to be done. (Photos would be even better).
I might try and drive it on Sunday. It seems that if you:
1) know what a GT should drive like
2) get the right insepctions done
3) don't care much about re-sale value
then saving ~$8k on an equivalent 2nd hand one is a good deal.
Red flags are :
1) The re-registration not having been done
2) The (sweet old) mother selling it
As usual (for me at least!) when buying Alfas in Victoria, it always seems to be from a suburb I've never been to or have never heard of!
Cheers
Torben
haha.. not with a stick.
first, light impact does not write off a vehicle - too much work was required, and to the structure to fix it.
second, you will need a VIV cert to register it... and that is why it's not rego'd in vic...
third, if you fail VIV you're boned.
forth, assuming this car tracks right and drives ok - it's good for the track, not the road.... 10k isn't that good.... $7-8k for parts might be ok...
fifth, it will ALWAYS have worthless resale, no matter how well it's fixed...
sixth, you can often find clean v6 GTs now for 5-7k more... worth it...
good luck to her!
I couldn't help myself.........I had to go and check this this car out.
Perhaps the story that was sold to me was legitimate, perhaps the 'minor' repaired damage was perfectly fixed and this would be a breeze to get back onto the road?
With such low km's, a nice colour combination and being so close to home it was worth a look!
My findings (at the rear of a very dodgy warehouse) caused me to jump back in the car within 5 disappointing minutes. I let Betty tell some pretty amusing tales about why her son (no where to be seen) and herself just don't have the time to have the car inspected. There were no books present and no photos to show me what the car looked like before the repairs.
The repair and paint is appalling and I have my doubts about the low km's. The tappets are very noisy, damaged exhaust and the car looks as though it has sat our in the weather for some time.
If (and a big if) you could get the car registered then I think the car would easily swallow up 7-8K and then you would be left with a car with a dubious past. :'(
Thanks for the report Twistybits, as I and others suspected it was the "Hat Full of #*^$@ holes" option.
Just guessing here but with the "out in the weather" remark I'd add to that probably without a bonnet as that would account for the oxidation/corrosion in the alloy parts of the motor as seen in the pics.
I'm waiting for the red leather to become available assuming they don't reel in a guppy!
Cheers,
Andy
I would give it a few weeks and make an offer on the seats.
Glad you didn't waste your time Andy.
Noticed that they had another 3 number plate free cars tucked in the back of this warehouse so I suspect this is not a one-off.
It appears the Black GT has finally sold.......
Putting a market value on a car is a difficult thing but my research into 147 GTA's and GT's has brought up some interesting findings. I appreciate that the value of a vehicle is subject to many factors and as a vehicle becomes older it generally drops in value purely because the maintenance costs increase. Perhaps values then climb if the car is in short supply and starts to be considered more of an 'enthusiasts' car, becoming more 'collectable'.
This is without a doubt a very flat market. There are many cars occupying space on car sale websites that have remained stagnant for months and months. What I find really interesting is what price the selling market is requesting/expecting opposed to what value someone like an insurance company or the likes of Redbook put on these fine vehicles. IMO, I think the typical asking price of a GT of GTA is very reasonable when compared to other similar makes but I am biased as clearly Redbook think it is approximately half this amount.
Below is from the RedBook website:
How does RedBook.com.au price my car?
In short, we don't. What we do is provide you with an overall market value based on research. Because individual cars or bikes can be valued higher or lower depending on market forces a RedBook Personalised Valuation offers you a more accurate market value for your car or bike based on variables like kilometres travelled and overall condition.
An average private price for a 147 GTA according to RedBook is $10-12K. Some insurance companies will insure a 147GTA up to a maximum of $14.5K. I think you would be hard pressed to find a really nice 147 GTA advertised for less than $18K. This begs the question, has Redbook undervalued this car or do sellers have unrealistic expectations?
The market value question is an interesting one. I battled my insurance company when they gave an initial Red Book-based valuation on my written-off 156 V6 of substantially under 10k, and I think I did well to negotiate this up to around 13k using market-place data combined with good subject knowledge and car-club credentials. When I replaced the V6 with the 156 GTA, the same company claimed its market value was 11.5k and could only be negotiated up to 14.5k as an agreed value despite the fact there were 6 similar models on the market at the time at an average of 20.5k. No, I'm sure they don't all sell for their asking price, but show me where they're all selling for 11.5k and I'll form a disorderly queue ;D
It's lookin' more like a Conga line to me!
No way! have I seen a 156 gta for 11,500 not even close, 15K yes, but not that low. The mean over the last 8 months I've been trawling has been 20K. for the 156gta but significantly more variance for the GT and the 147gta there is a good deal more of them,hence more competition and the consequence, fundamental economics.
The 156 gta has entered the arena of "collectable" well and truly, if it wasn't from it's outset.
The other models sharing that powerplant aren't quite there yet and and are far more plentiful ...... market forces prevail!
If you watch long enough examples start at what the seller thinks or would like to get for their vehicle, a 1~6 month perspective applies as it's often the minimum amount of rego a seller can buy.
Over the said period it is evident sellers revise their plans downward to a point they feel is their bottomline, this not only for Alfas it happens across the board.
The data Redbook et al release public domain, I think, draws largely from the reported on everyones rego transfer sale price along with auction data. All that's needed is a couple of "barn finds" flood or hail damage models from a particular model year to come up in the accounting window or timeframe and bingo the market value goes south bigtime .... lies, damn lies, and then there's statistics.
Betty's Black Beauty is a case in point the simple fact that a GT of whatever model year it was sold for a huge discount will drag down the average for that model/year.
The purveyors of statistical data, to my mind, offer nothing more than a guide. Other and numerous factors come into play from both sides of the classical sale relationship.
As a "Guide" their data can be useful, if one can apply filters or modifiers that load or discount the guide price based on the factors or variables seen as valuable or desirable, or not. Then the guide price can be adjusted to a point or range that the buyer considers a fair or true appraisal of worth.
It's the way I would arrive at what I thought was a fair offer for the car. If it came to the point of offers. Sometimes the seller gets to your formulated price point all by themselves .... well not necessarily with any input from the ultimate purchaser,but perhaps that of others.
If your not watching closely enough those opportunities are occasionally missed.
Recently observed (for some time) two cases of 147gtas that started at 17,000 and 19,000 respectively and sold for 11K and then 9.2K yep a 147gta(sele) started around 19 and sold for 9 .... fact. It took 6~7 months to happen I might add.
I'm not really looking anymore as I found my baby and I'm very happy (that's a heinous understatement) it's not pristine but in good order nonetheless, I'm certainly not complaining and I'm well pleased and happy I got a good deal.
Q2 goes in Monday next, adios a major concern and let full exploration begin.
Don't give up or be disheartened twistybits, your baby will come along too ... hang in there and keep looking, cast a wiider net if necessary but be patient ,it will happen.
Initially both buyers and sellers have fairly narrow rules of engagement .... eventually they both learn psalms of compromise.
Cheers,
Andy
After much deliberation between these two brilliant models, I recently became the proud owner of a 147GTA. It appears to have had a great life and has had all the hard work done with a few nice extras like an aftermarket exhaust system that lets this little beauty sing as she should. Thus far, I have only just clocked up 100km of mainly traffic driving and really can't wait to get the car out into fresh air and enjoy some 'Twisty bits'. See a few happy snaps below.
http://s1179.photobucket.com/albums/x398/andy0502/147%20GTA/?albumview=slideshow&track=share_email_album_view_click
She looks lovely, great buy - congratulations and welcome to the family!