Hi All,
Still a newbie and neither an owner or a member yet.
I would be very grateful if someone knows where the Alfa GT was built.More specifically the RHD versions that have been imported to Oz.
And if it happens to be Italy, where in Italy?
Could it be Arese, or was that only an engine plant?
I've read some accounts of all production for the Asian market coming from Sth. Africa but also that that plant closed in '84/'85 so I'm puzzled a little regarding the build origins of this fine vehicle.
Thanks to other forum members/contributors I'm satisfied of the engine's origins but the body/chassis/trim still something of a mystery.
Thanks to all respondants I'm sure someone will know.
Cheers,
Andy
Hi All,
A supplementary query, lets throw a couple of the other models from the 932 series into the mix as well, say the 156 and 147.
Could it be Thailand?
Cheers,
Andy
The 147 and 156 were built at Pomigliano De Arco in South Italy at the Factory built in 1969 to build the Alfasud, the Thailand built Alfa Romeo's were for local consumption only, and was a General Motors plant, back in the days when G.M. was a part owner of the Fiat group, its good to see someone else out there shares my passion for where cars are made, Colin.
Thanks Colin,
I appreciate your reply, for a while there I thought I'd asked something sacrilegious.Spent the whole day thinking I was only nanoseconds from a lightning bolt.
You're completely correct about my (some may call it an obsession) keen interest in the manufacturing origins of the material things i buy/accumulate.Cars are included, amongst other consumer durables, I like to think of it as discerning.
I hold a deep affection for ALL things Italian. The people,their food,their art,their architecture and particularly their engineering it's their Motorcycles that appeal most, likely, as they were somewhat more attainable(for me) than their cars but I love it all,save perhaps their politicians, but we have a few (at least) home grown embarrassments of our own that I view with equal derision.
To illustrate, lets say a Zegna Suit was on your bucket list and you were well heeled enough to take the plunge,but when you got it home from your last in your lifetime trip to Roma and examined the labels inside and discovered that the cloth was woven in Bolivia, Cut in Hong Kong, and sewn up in Ethiopia.(Not suggesting for a moment they are, but stranger things have happened)
I think you could feel quite justifiably pissed off,or even ripped off. Globalisation has a lot to answer for, in my view,foistered on us (the consumer) by soulless beancounters that have little or no, justification other than profit.What happened to pride in your work?
It's also not the only thing we share a commonality about ..... I too share your view of gutter journalism and frankly couldn't believe the traction the thread re- ACA got.
Cheers Mate,
Andy
A few months ago, the AGE Drive liftout had a story on where all the different cars are made, don't want to be racist, so i mums the word, it seems for te time being, Alfa Romeo's are still built in Italy, and with all Italy's problems at the moment, i don't think they want to export jobs, but they used to have a plant in South Africa and they built Alfa's there for years according to my South African workmate who told me and drove one of them, but i have also been told that Alfa's were also assembled in Australia in the late 60's and early 70's at the Lightburn plant in South Australia, Lightburn Industries, who was owned by Walter Lightburn, they still exist and make concrete mixers, [Italian connection?], and used to build washing machines, car jacks and 'Australia's worst car', the Lightburn ZETA!, has anyone else heard this story about Australian assembled Alfa's?, please tell, Colin.
Quote from: colcol on June 12, 2012, 09:17:25 PM
A few months ago, the AGE Drive liftout had a story on where all the different cars are made, don't want to be racist, so i mums the word, it seems for te time being, Alfa Romeo's are still built in Italy, and with all Italy's problems at the moment, i don't think they want to export jobs, but they used to have a plant in South Africa and they built Alfa's there for years according to my South African workmate who told me and drove one of them, but i have also been told that Alfa's were also assembled in Australia in the late 60's and early 70's at the Lightburn plant in South Australia, Lightburn Industries, who was owned by Walter Lightburn, they still exist and make concrete mixers, [Italian connection?], and used to build washing machines, car jacks and 'Australia's worst car', the Lightburn ZETA!, has anyone else heard this story about Australian assembled Alfa's?, please tell, Colin.
Colin - that Lightburn story is just that. Can't point you to a link but I'm sure if you Googled it something would pop up quickly. My understanding is that there was a plan to do it but it never got off the ground.
However in the 60's and 70's Alfa's were both assembled and manufactured in many countries. In our region Malaysia assembled them and I'm pretty sure so did Thailand (before the 156 assembly mentioned above). But most famously Brazil designed and manufactured it's own series of Alfa's that were quite distinct to the Italian cars. Google FNM 2000, Alfa Rio, or Alfa 2300 and you'll get links to sites like this: http://chris.home.xs4all.nl/rio.html. At home I have an owners manual for a Brazilian Alfa 2000 from that period, the car that preceeded the 2300 mentioned above.
South Africa had a long history assembling Alfa's from Giulia's all the way through to 116 Giulietta's and including Sud's. All the automatic 105's we have in Australia came from there - believe it was the only plant globally that manufactured Automatic 105 coupes.
Here's a good link on South African assembled Alfa's (and more):
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/alfa-romeo-history/31146-south-african-built-alfas.html
Thanks to All,
Checked out the links and they have answered to some extent my question on the true origins of some models of Alfa particularly if they were RHD.
It was precisely the lack of clarity that the other BB user/member referred to that was puzzling me.Essentially conflicting data.
It may well also explain or help colcol in his quest, as from what I read in those links it is my understanding/memory that very similar legislation existed in this country regarding "local content". And was likely the reason/motivation and mechanism for some car manufacturers to gain credit or concessions for the importation of their other models that were "Fully Imported" and not partially completed locally.
It's the carrot and stick technique of government we all know and love.
Cheers,
Andy
According to an impecable source in a post from about 2 years ago, Lightburn did build a few Alfa's, they are now very rare, cars where easier to build 45 years ago, there were 100% tarrifs imposed on fully imported cars, so to get around that they would import the parts in CKD form, [completely knocked down] and assemble them here, and if the parts were locally made, then there was less tarrifs imposed on the cars, and i beleive Lightburn was a sales agent for Alfa Romeo's, and once the sales of Alfa Romeo's got going in the early 70's, Alfa Romeo Italy set up themselves in Australia as Alfa Romeo Australia, and stayed here until they buggered off in 1992, leaving us with savage depreciation, and poor servicing facility's and spare parts availability, when they closed down in Australia, they auctioned all the spare parts they had left, and that was it, lucky Alfa Romeo's are such reliable cars, you hardly ever need anything apart from the odd filter or light globe, Colin.
Quote from: colcol on June 15, 2012, 09:28:42 PM
According to an impecable source in a post from about 2 years ago, Lightburn did build a few Alfa's, they are now very rare, cars where easier to build 45 years ago, there were 100% tarrifs imposed on fully imported cars, so to get around that they would import the parts in CKD form, [completely knocked down] and assemble them here, and if the parts were locally made, then there was less tarrifs imposed on the cars, and i beleive Lightburn was a sales agent for Alfa Romeo's, and once the sales of Alfa Romeo's got going in the early 70's, Alfa Romeo Italy set up themselves in Australia as Alfa Romeo Australia, and stayed here until they buggered off in 1992, leaving us with savage depreciation, and poor servicing facility's and spare parts availability, when they closed down in Australia, they auctioned all the spare parts they had left, and that was it, lucky Alfa Romeo's are such reliable cars, you hardly ever need anything apart from the odd filter or light globe, Colin.
The Alfa Oracle will know....David Wright
And when Lightburn Industries stopped building the Lightburn Zeta, they auctioned off all the Zeta fibreglass bodies, and some bloke purchased them and turned them into dog kennals, Lightburn are still going today, they make concrete mixers!, Colin.
Maybe they were Doggomobiles!
Further on the origin of the species, What about wheels? Does or do Alfa make their own? or is there a dedicated wheelmaker as part of the Fiat group? Not too sure if they should still be called wheelwrights but as the Italians have an equally long history of producing high quality wheels for all kinds of conveyance, I wondered who might build them for Alfa if not themselves.
Marchesini springs to mind (part of the Brembo group) and if Alfa use their brakes why not their wheels? (Cost probably!!!!)
Marchesini are well known for their motorcycle wheels and I've only read and heard rumours of car wheels and never seen any but they are the very,very best money can buy on two wheels and would clearly offer significant performance advantages to the four wheeled fraternity.
It would not shock me at all to hear Marchesini car wheels costing a grand or two EACH so that's likely the answer.
Cheers,
Andy
Alfa mostly use Speedlines, in the olden days they use to use steel wheels, and the P.C.D. was interchangeable with Fiats and Lancia's, so most likely came from same factory, Italians have always been aware of their unemployment problems and have always been keen to make it in Italy, rather than another country, and when another country does make something, then it is usually in exchange for something they can export, ATE brakes in Germany, made the brakes for Alfa Romeo, in exchange for Alfa Romeo's being sold in Germany, i cannot imagine in the olden days Alfa buying motors off G.M., Colin.
Thanks Colin, I hadn't heard of ATE or Speedline but I've never owned a car with "mag" wheels(something of a misnomer) or ATE brakes that I'm aware of.
I had a look at the their respective websites and it would seem they are both 'global' players to some extent and manufacture where the accountants direct them.
The term "Mag" wheel is a genuine misnomer. At the consumer end of the wheel market it is occasionally true but rather uncommon and prohibitively expensive to fabricate a wheel from 'Magnesium' or an alloy thereof (the origins of the word or term).
It is a fallacy to believe all 'Mag' wheels to be light,very frequently they are not, but significantly heavier than the steel wheels they replace.As it is something of a pursuit of the performance "Holy Grail" to reduce 'unsprung weight' in or on both two wheels and four, many folks erroneously believe they have moved in a favourable direction in that pursuit by fitting aftermarket 'Mag' wheels, when in truth they have not and it could be argued that the measure could very easily be regressive and an actual performance reduction as opposed to an enhancement.
It is for the most part an aesthetic exercise and not necessarily a performance based endeavour at all,for mine it's a cart before the horse situation or form over function. Unless genuinely lighter wheels have been used that may have been fabricated in a genuine magnesium alloy or perhaps that rare commodity "Unobtanium"
It was my understanding, that some models of Alfa Romeo came equipped with Brembo brakes as standard fare, or am I incorrect?
If it is the case I thought it may not be too long a bow to hope for Marchesini wheels too, as they are also part of the Brembo group and would or may not necessarily be exporting jobs as they are both Italian companies.
It is a difficult task but not entirely unheard of, to think of a modern(ish) Italian motorcycle that does not have Marzocchi Forks,Brembo Brakes and Marchesini Wheels.I am aware that there are occasionally exceptions from Showa,Ohlins etc but it is not a common thing very likely due to the apprehension for exporting jobs ,as you mentioned.
Thanks and Cheers
Andy
Quote from: Gotta B Red on June 17, 2012, 10:46:55 AM
Maybe they were Doggomobiles!
That's very good!
Quote from: Gotta B Red on June 18, 2012, 01:14:03 PM
The term "Mag" wheel is a genuine misnomer.
Does anyone even refer to them as 'mags' anymore? I remember it being a popular term in the 80s when it wasn't so very long before that 'mags' were actually made of mag, but everyone just calls them 'alloys' now don't they? Interestingly, Formula 1 still uses magnesium.
Quote from: Gotta B Red on June 18, 2012, 01:14:03 PM
It was my understanding, that some models of Alfa Romeo came equipped with Brembo brakes as standard fare, or am I incorrect?
Some 80s transaxle cars came with Brembos on the front (75, 90 and GTV6), and also the 147 and 156 GTA I believe. Other than that, not sure if any others did.
Oh wait, maybe the 932 V6 GTV and Spider had Brembo too?
Thanks Sheldon,
I apologise for the 'old world terminology' that's coz I am old world.But to be absolutely technically correct all metal wheels are alloys the only ones that are not, are wooden and made by wheelwrights an artful skill that is, or soon will be, lost forever.
In view of your second post, would it be too great a stretch to include the GT with the group of models you advise had Brembo brakes?
Formula One are not the only users of Mag alloy wheels, Marchesini definately make them for bikes and probably cars too,but I'm unable to verify that. Having been advised by colcol that Speedline are the maker of choice for many Alfa models regarding wheels they too manufacture Mag alloy wheels for cars but it's unclear which models from the Fiat group are adorned with them,if any. My guess, it would be the top-shelf stuff, the "supercar" aspirants. Unfortunately their price would dictate "only for the very well heeled" and they are not very practical for everyday use. Scratch them and it's game over .....ruined, they'll oxidise faster than a rat up a drain pipe.
Cheers,
Andy
Don't get carried away with the Brembo brand on GTV6 or 75's etc. Yes, they were alloy and yes they were a big improvement on the earlier iron calipers on 4-cylinder cars, but they were pretty simple 2-pot units. Brembo being a PBR of Italy.....
Quote from: Gotta B Red on June 18, 2012, 04:11:04 PM
In view of your second post, would it be too great a stretch to include the GT with the group of models you advise had Brembo brakes?
Yes, my bad. I guess in my head I consider them a variant of the 147. I must admit, I completely forgot about the GT, remiss of me considering the title of this thread.
Quote from: aggie57 on June 18, 2012, 04:14:13 PM
Don't get carried away with the Brembo brand on GTV6 or 75's etc. Yes, they were alloy and yes they were a big improvement on the earlier iron calipers on 4-cylinder cars, but they were pretty simple 2-pot units. Brembo being a PBR of Italy.....
True, but they were good enough for Porsche to use on the 911. I've read elsewhere that the 911 SC fronts are the exact same unit, and a simple google search turns up pics of very similar looking brakes, but obviously I couldn't confirm they're the same....etc....
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on June 18, 2012, 04:39:51 PM
True, but they were good enough for Porsche to use on the 911. I've read elsewhere that the 911 SC fronts are the exact same unit, and a simple google search turns up pics of very similar looking brakes, but obviously I couldn't confirm they're the same....etc....
For the 180-204bhp SC and later 3.2, yes. Now a little bigger...pictures below if that helps.
Didja know! Alfas were also assembled in Indonesia for the local market, RHD of course.Bloke I know was instrumental in setting the plant up.I think they were the basic boxy 1300 Berlina, nothing fancy as the market wasn't large enough.I think this was in the mid 60's.,I remembr doing some remedial work on a 1300 (very rusty) that had been imported from New Guinea to Oz,most likely a Indo built car, I remember it drove very well indeed which belied its appearance somewhat! More homework there for those who are bent that way....Cheers.....Ian
Quote from: colcol on June 15, 2012, 09:28:42 PM
According to an impecable source in a post from about 2 years ago, Lightburn did build a few Alfa's, they are now very rare, cars where easier to build 45 years ago, there were 100% tarrifs imposed on fully imported cars, so to get around that they would import the parts in CKD form, [completely knocked down] and assemble them here, and if the parts were locally made, then there was less tarrifs imposed on the cars, and i beleive Lightburn was a sales agent for Alfa Romeo's, and once the sales of Alfa Romeo's got going in the early 70's, Alfa Romeo Italy set up themselves in Australia as Alfa Romeo Australia, and stayed here until they buggered off in 1992, leaving us with savage depreciation, and poor servicing facility's and spare parts availability, when they closed down in Australia, they auctioned all the spare parts they had left, and that was it, lucky Alfa Romeo's are such reliable cars, you hardly ever need anything apart from the odd filter or light globe, Colin.
I don't believe that Lightburn actually assembled any Alfa Romeos in Australia. True, they intended to assemble Alfas and may have even entered into an agreement with the factory, but it didn't actually happen.
They did import a number of Alfa Romeos, if I recall correctly a 101 Giulia Spider, a 2600 Sprint and the first Giulia Sprint GT in 1964.
The Giulia Sprint GT was the road test car featured in Wheels and Sports Car World. This car actually ended up in New South Wales in the hands on long time club member Ron Lighton. When I saw the car in the late 90s it was running and registered but needed restoration. A friend of mine was interested in buying it at the time but it never happened. I wonder what happened to this car? (and while we're at it Ron's white Appendix J Sprint GT racecar for that matter...)
Ron also happened to own the first Alfetta that arrived in Australia. This was the metallic olive green Sydney Motor Show example that Harry Lewis owned for a long time. Ron was undertaking its restoration in the mid 90s and I think he may have moved it on after he finished it as I've seen a similar car around Sydney.
Back to Lightburn, and prior to the factory setting up Alfa Romeo Australia in 1970, most Alfa Romeos were imported by either Alec Mildren (ACT, NSW and Queensland) or MW Motors (Victoria and rest of Australia.) I think you will find very few that were actually imported by Lightburn.
I wonder what such a model may have been called Alfa Romeo - Luce Ardere Evoluzione ?
More seriously and on thread, if paint is considered original, "Ice Blue"?? and it must too have an Italian name, Gelo Azzuro might come close.
Was this a factory colour in any model of the 932 ? Circa 2003~5 It's a Metallic Blue/green/silverish ..... and yes I am still taking my medicatioon
I've done some surfin' but not much light thus far ..... anyone seen a specimen/example or swatch? Better still, a pic of the colour would be great!
I'm guessing here but I think Alfa sold more Blue cars in the years, most likely, the "Azzuri" were going well.
To my eye this colour has only a tenuous claim to be blue or at least the example I've seen and I'd be V/grateful for any advice whether it is indeed a genuine alfa colour.
I've come across some really strange references notably 'Stromberg' Grey ..... really?, surely they mean Stromboli Grey or Grigio de Stromboli perhaps, but a ref to a carby or perhaps the town. Who knows maybe it is a grey town(no offence intended) and you could easily say the carby was grey but could/would present some colour matching challenges with the everpresent benzene stain or hue.
All jokes aside, I defer to your superior knowledge and familiarity with the marque!
Cheers,
Andy
Would you mean Nuvola Blue/Azzuro Nuvola? That was available as an option for a while - apparently it was special order and frighteningly expensive. There are a few cars in that colour floating around Oz though.
That might just be the colour,thanks for the info AGM 155.
Some early examples I looked at following your lead, looked too dark, as if they had a greater black component but other examples,even non-alfas but reportedly sprayed in Alfa's 'Azzurro Nuvola' looked much closer to the colour called by the owner 'Ice Blue'
I was able to view images of a 156,GT and a 147 in Azzurro Nuvola and they are very close if not the same.
It's a difficult task matching colour on a computer monitor from images created digitally in either the 1st instance or secondarily via scanning an emulsion original. So many variables, not to mention light and the photographers talent or lack of it.
Thanks for the help, I'm a little more comfortable that the colour is an original, just need to see it "in the flesh" and maybe part with my hard earned reddies.
Cheers,
Andy