Got my GTV6 up and running and enjoying it immensely. The intended use is for gravel rally. Especially the V6 with the Haltech all tuned correctly. It goes hard and sounds the beans. I finally realise what everyone has been talking about since the early 80's.
Now I realise the transaxle on these has always been not to everyone's liking and was part of the charm, but just trying to establish what is reasonable. It is not as bad as my memory of older Alfettas but still has its issues. Note it is the original transaxle that i put straight back in untouched. Questions for today are all about second gear:
1. Changes from first to second are not too bad, no graunching, but not something to rush.
2. Main issue is on down-changing from third. It is OK if you can give the engine a blip or double de-clutch, but if for example under hard braking you try to just put it back to second it gives the old graunch.
So what is normal? What would you expect from a good transaxle or should I be thinking about a rebuild?
second synchro wears out as its the most used? from a good usable transaxle u shouldnt have any noises issues with shifting, it depends what level of competition you intent on competing in? if your going to push the car to its limits u will definatly need to fix it or if you just going to go for a drive every sunday you could get away with it for a couple of months but the problem wont fix itself ;)
you can swap 5th synchro onto 2nd or buy a new synhro (or a set, but $$$) and put the box back toghether. after doing this myself for the first time i would not pay someone else to do it! give it ago!
The third to second change is the weakest one for this box. For the use you are intending then heel and toe is a given if you want it to have any sort of life. The syncro's will wear out very quickly (as in a few hundred or few thousand k's) if you are relying on them.
Over the years many theories and rationales have been put forward as to why this is so, many of which are probaby fully or partly true, but in the end with this what is just is I'm afraid.
The upside is if you look after the box, use some really good synthetic oil of the right spec, you will get many years service out of it.
Flynn
Alfa transaxles when going back down the gears should always have the engine revs matched to the anticipated road speed for the gear you are about to get into. Just relying on the synchro assemblies to mesh the gears is the fastest way to shorten its life and ruin your gearbox. Practice good heel & toe technique which is mandatory.
The second and important issue is a misconception that you can repair the damaged "synchros" by just replacing the synchromesh ring. Actually to make a proper job of it, all three components of the synchro set need to be replaced ie.
1 Synchro ring
2 Synchro hub ring
3 Synchro dog ring
Choice of transmission oil is also important and you should look through the posts on here for that.
Quote from: MD on March 26, 2012, 08:38:54 AM
Flynn
Alfa transaxles when going back down the gears should always have the engine revs matched to the anticipated road speed for the gear you are about to get into. Just relying on the synchro assemblies to mesh the gears is the fastest way to shorten its life and ruin your gearbox. Practice good heel & toe technique which is mandatory.
The second and important issue is a misconception that you can repair the damaged "synchros" by just replacing the synchromesh ring. Actually to make a proper job of it, all three components of the synchro set need to be replaced ie.
1 Synchro ring
2 Synchro hub ring
3 Synchro dog ring
Choice of transmission oil is also important and you should look through the posts on here for that.
Snap!
Without wanting to wander too far off topic here, it is my understanding that heel toe technique has no effect on synchronizing gear changes (or prolonging the life of your synchromesh), heel toe technique will only stop compression lock upon release of the clutch. Double de-clutching is the way to assist gear changing by matching the road speed to the input shaft speed.
I am happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable than me on this topic though.
A good conversation here about it the double declutch / heel toe debate.
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=893.0
Quote from: alfagtv58 on March 26, 2012, 08:57:44 AM
Without wanting to wander too far off topic here, it is my understanding that heel toe technique has no effect on synchronizing gear changes (or prolonging the life of your synchromesh), heel toe technique will only stop compression lock upon release of the clutch. Double de-clutching is the way to assist gear changing by matching the road speed to the input shaft speed.
I am happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable than me on this topic though.
Yes, fair point Phil. Over the years I've just learnt to heel and toe and double de-clutch as one so forget to differentiate.
Phil's definitely right - I believe just heel-toeing on it's own does little to reduce wear on synchros. Heel-toe plus a double declutch for a quick change without excessive wear.
Quote from: alfagtv58 on November 20, 2007, 03:49:29 PM
Hmmm. I have always heel-toed, and find it quite comfortable to do.
I have never even tried the double declutch. Maybe I should be trying it.
That was back in 2007. Did you learn?
I have tried it, and for sure it reduces the 'crunch', but it is in no way 2nd nature for me yet, I have to really concentrate on a) doing it in the firstplace and b) doing it effectively. So I usually end up doing it in the 6 Hour or races where I'm a bit lonely. I have found myself doing it in the road car as practice, not at high rpm changes, just normal road speeds for the practice of clutch in and out a couple of times.
The proof is in watching my in car from PI a couple of weeks back, my 2nd and 3rd gear synchros are knackered ::)
Yes Phil you have it right. ( I must admit I had a chuckle about this)
I have been doing this all my life and I naturally assumed everybody else also understood that to heel and toe means you double declutch simulatneously otherwise it is a pointless exercise in terms of synchro assistance.
I appreciate that you have pointed this out to those not in the know.
Thanks for the input guys. One thing i have in the To Do list is to move the accelerator pedal closer to the brake pedal so I can actually heel and toe. Being 6' 2" I have trouble with the standard set up. I also want to move the brake pedal about 50mm closer to the floor since it has a pedal box with no booster, so very little pedal movement, and plenty of room for more using some of the un-needed travel to give my long legs access.
I am thinking of moving from Penrite to the Redline Shockproof transmission oil, just in case it helps and then drive around it for a while. Do a few rallies and then decide what to do with the transmission.
Having said all that it is not circuit racing and the flexible nature of the V6 helps in things like holding 3rd longer than otherwise so maybe not an issue.
Plan B is to win Lotto, give the transaxle to someone like Vin Sharp and ask him to make it all better.
flynn,
I have a spare box if you want a spare one either to rebuild or parts
The best way to learn to double-declutch is the way I learned - the forced way! My first alfetta had the worst synchro you could imagine and I had to double-d into both second and third! Otherwise I basically couldn't shift gears. You get good at it in a hurry. Plus, it has to be the best way to pull a smile on your face - hard under brakes change down two gears then throw the car around the corner. If you get it just right the feeling is fantastic! Getting it wrong of course...
Quote from: Fylnn on March 26, 2012, 11:01:04 PM
I am thinking of moving from Penrite to the Redline Shockproof transmission oil, just in case it helps and then drive around it for a while. Do a few rallies and then decide what to do with the transmission.
Redline Shockproof doesn't have a good reputation for synchro equipped 'boxes. Apparently the synchro's get glazed because Shockproof is more for dog ring engagement 'boxes.
And just for the record, you can't compression lock a petrol engine. Not unless you fill it with a liquid :o.
Duk,
I dont think Phil is talking about the equivalnet of hydraulic compression and that's not how I interpreted it .
Come on Phil, you're on the mat. Explain yourself before the party gets ugly. hahhaa. :D :D
My giulietta Uses to crunch 2nd and 3rd really really bad so I gave this product a go http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?catid=7&iid=25&loc=show and the gearbox felt like it was brand new , I could basicly slam it Into any gear at hIgh revs and it slipped into gear like a glove.
Quote from: Alpine Chapter on March 27, 2012, 03:11:42 PM
Hi Duk,
Could you please back this comment up with more than 'Apparently?' ???
Not really other than seeing it mentioned a few times on AlfaBB. I searched for specifics, but forum search engines aren't my friend.
If it works for you, that's great. I would be a bit reluctant to use it in my 'probably unopened' transaxle, tho.
Quote from: MD on March 27, 2012, 05:17:47 PM
Duk,
I dont think Phil is talking about the equivalnet of hydraulic compression and that's not how I interpreted it .
I know he's not either, but when you get off the throttle of a petrol engine spinning at a 5000+rpm, there aint much air getting past that closed throttle body(ies) and so dynamic compression is less than squat. Manifold vacuum, however, is pretty damn high ;)
Storm X, like the idea of synchromesh in a bottle. Where did you buy the stuff out of interest? Happy to try most anything once.
I bought it from super cheap auto to be honest. It says you can use 100% for diffs, I believe it's a 1ltr bottle so I used the lot and mixed it in. It's around $20 a bottle so it's at least worth a try.
Quote from: MD on March 27, 2012, 05:17:47 PM
Duk,
I dont think Phil is talking about the equivalnet of hydraulic compression and that's not how I interpreted it .
Come on Phil, you're on the mat. Explain yourself before the party gets ugly. hahhaa. :D :D
Yeah, not hydraulic compression lock.....it'd take a bit more than a little blip on the throttle to fix that. Although I almost had that once, car overheating mid race, so I pulled into the pits, let it cool down and took the radiator cap off, low on water, so I thought I should top it up. As I was pouring water into the radiator I glanced over to see water pouring out of one of the carby trumpets as fast as I was pouring it into the radiator.....glad I didnt try to start it first, major disaster avoided.
Anyway, I'm talking about braking into a corner, clutch in, select lower gear and letting clutch out while engine is around idle speed and the tendancy of the rear wheels to lock as they are unloaded etc etc.
Hopefully that is enough to get me off the mat, I'll be heading back to the dog house again.
Quote from: alfagtv58 on March 28, 2012, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: MD on March 27, 2012, 05:17:47 PM
Duk,
I dont think Phil is talking about the equivalnet of hydraulic compression and that's not how I interpreted it .
Come on Phil, you're on the mat. Explain yourself before the party gets ugly. hahhaa. :D :D
Yeah, not hydraulic compression lock.....it'd take a bit more than a little blip on the throttle to fix that. Although I almost had that once, car overheating mid race, so I pulled into the pits, let it cool down and took the radiator cap off, low on water, so I thought I should top it up. As I was pouring water into the radiator I glanced over to see water pouring out of one of the carby trumpets as fast as I was pouring it into the radiator.....glad I didnt try to start it first, major disaster avoided.
Anyway, I'm talking about braking into a corner, clutch in, select lower gear and letting clutch out while engine is around idle speed and the tendancy of the rear wheels to lock as they are unloaded etc etc.
Hopefully that is enough to get me off the mat, I'll be heading back to the dog house again.
I recall years ago a club member attempting to drive his then reasonably new Alfetta sedan through flood waters in central NSW. Engine stopped half way through one section. Bent rods was the report.....and more at a guess!
Just MHO but been driving Alfas for over 30 years and the first time I drove one and 2nd gear crunched on a downshift, the sales guy said "double clutch, get used to it, it's and Alfa"
I love double clutching and if you don't there are plenty of Hondas waiting for you.
Again, just MHO :-)
BTW. It stops yr mates driving your car.
Quote from: shane wescott on March 29, 2012, 11:48:53 PM
Just MHO but been driving Alfas for over 30 years and the first time I drove one and 2nd gear crunched on a downshift, the sales guy said "double clutch, get used to it, it's and Alfa"
I love double clutching and if you don't there are plenty of Hondas waiting for you.
Again, just MHO :-)
BTW. It stops yr mates driving your car.
It did it for years on all of my other cars that had synchos that worked, after my old Giullietta :P. Not such a habit now.
I just completed a day of rallying. I am a member of Brisbane Sporting Car Club, and on Saturday we had a ride day in support of Camp Crystal for kids and families affected by cancer. It is a bit hard to scare a kid who is staring down the barrel, so it was wonderful to do something for them.
We started with 16 cars giving rides, it was just a track carved out of the back of someone's farm so as the wore on it got pretty rough with big gibbers the size of half a house brick getting pulled out, so backed off a lot later one. But I am pleased to report that of the 16 cars, only 3 ran all day, only a WRX and a V8 Commodore, (both of which owe someone mega bucks) AND THE ALFA. About lunchtime I kept started hearing the "what is the Alfa still running" statements. By mid-adternoon I started getting the confessions. I used to own/rally and Alfa and I know they were cantankerous but they were tough. So really pleasing result. We broke all of the Hyundais, Datsuns and the Escort lost a front suspension.
I am also really pleased with the performance. It has a Haltech but otherwise the engine is standard. It has been dynoed at 132HP at the rear wheels. The rations are really good, they just keep coming and the engine is on the boil easily, and importantly for rally, the V6 has plenty of grunt across a broad band of revs. Just love it, they are as good as people said they were.
BUT, it was all 2nd and 3rd gear stuff. Despite lots of double declutching by the end of the day and on the way home changing 1-2 or 3-2 comes with a really big graunch. It is almost like the synchro collapsed or something. I have no history of the box but suspect it was not been touched in many, many years. Has anyone had the suddenly goes bad story?
Also now thinking of rebuild options. Can look in Brisbane, or try and do myself (I am mechanical but never done a gearbox before), or ship it down to someone like Vin Sharp. Anyone got any thoughts about difficulty or cost?
Excellent! Nice to get it home after that even with some "new" noises. You've probably just chopped out the dog gears and synchro bands. Pretty common once the bands wear.
If you've never worked on a gearbox but are OK to have a go then the good news is that these are really easy to get out and pull apart. Getting them out is straightforward so long as you can get under the car, and you don't need to remove the transaxle to remove the gearset. All you do is drop the front on the transaxle, remove the clutch and then pull the gearset out the front. It's mounted on the sandwich plate so what you end up with is a complete gearbox on your bench fully exposed.
I'm not saying you won't have some fun with the tailshaft and wriggling things in and out (getting the front of the transaxle low enough to give you room to pull the box out is second nature after a couple of goes but can seem odd first time).
Once it's out and on your bench replacing the failed parts is straightforward except for the dog gears which you will need an experienced person with the right tools to do. For me I'd get Vin to do that but then he's 15 minutes from my front door and over 25+ years I've only ever known him to do quality work :)
So where do you get the appropriate parts these days? Dog gears, synchro rings and all that?
i know turin imports and maybe the spare place, here in adelaide sell most if not all parts for the transaxle
spare parts place may have it, i get all my new stuff from them if i cant find it on the internet
I suspect I will have to bite the bullet and do something with the box. I was hoping to get to at least Christmas and do the big strip down then.
I suppose plan B is to find another identical GTV6 box and do it up instead. One with the larger diameter bolts in the drive flange and the correct gear ratios.
So what special tools do I need to change the second gear synchro? The Haynes manual is not too clear or I missed it.
I just noticed these mentioned in a post on the AlfaBB forum.
http://www.spruellmotorsport.com/syncros-bearings-hardware-off-c-2066_22_48_2382.html
Not sure if anyone has any experience with them and if they are all they are cracked up to be, or if there is a local supplier of equal or better quality.
FyInn,
From the dealings I have had with these people, the transactions went well and the parts were good. I have never purchased synchro components from them so I cannot comment other than that they do not sell synchro dogs unless you buy the entire gear that it's fitted to at the same time.
However, I know for sure that I will never do business with Milano Spares again having purchased synchro components only to receive parts that were fractured (see photos) but allegedly new and despite returning the parts as instructed, I am still awaiting a refund for same. Numerous emails requesting a refund has just fallen on deaf ears. Not only that but the synchro hub supplied had to be machined at my expense otherwise it just wouldn't engage.
All I am saying FyInn is to be careful in researching your supplier -as difficult as that may be from time to time.
Quote from: Storm_X on March 27, 2012, 07:11:41 PM
My giulietta Uses to crunch 2nd and 3rd really really bad so I gave this product a go http://www.lucasoil.com/products/display_products.sd?catid=7&iid=25&loc=show and the gearbox felt like it was brand new , I could basicly slam it Into any gear at hIgh revs and it slipped into gear like a glove.
I tried the Lucasoil in the transaxle today and it does seem to have made a major improvement. Except that forget about 2nd gear when it is stone cold. Might get me through a bit longer but need to think about a rebuild it seems. I spoke to Avanti and sometime soon looking to take the box down to them for a bit of attention. One note of cauton seemed to be that the quality of synchros available now aren't quite what they used to be. From what I have seen on AlfaBB people like Vin Sharp have been complaining about them. Not sure what the solution is but I am sure Avanti will do what they can.
Spruell are very helpful - I've bought a bit of stuff off them and had an issue with a part once (that they were very happy to address without any hassles at all). And you can always give them a call of an evening (if only to confirm order details and credit card # - they don't have online credit card facilities).
Got some man time on the weekend so I pulled my transaxle out after it went kaput at Eastern Creek. I did the usual cursing at the bolts that hold the drive shafts on (the Allen head ones), what are they M8 x 1.0??? Anyway, has anyone replaced these with hex head? I hate getting 11 of the 12 out and spending 2 hours trying to get that last stubborn bastard out while rounding off my 'good' 6mm Allen key, skinning knuckles and teaching my 4 year old a vocabulary his mother was quite shocked to hear regurgitated.
Phil, I used a 6mm hex with a 1/2 inch square drive from a rattle gun tool set on my giuli, you have to go to a real tool shop though to get one that wont round off. Now I'm lazy and get Bruno to do it
Quote from: alfagtv58 on June 25, 2012, 08:56:38 PM
Got some man time on the weekend so I pulled my transaxle out after it went kaput at Eastern Creek. I did the usual cursing at the bolts that hold the drive shafts on (the Allen head ones), what are they M8 x 1.0??? Anyway, has anyone replaced these with hex head? I hate getting 11 of the 12 out and spending 2 hours trying to get that last stubborn bastard out while rounding off my 'good' 6mm Allen key, skinning knuckles and teaching my 4 year old a vocabulary his mother was quite shocked to hear regurgitated.
Phil - just cut the head off any that won't budge with a 4" grinder and replace them afterwards. Once the half shaft is off the rest of the bolt spins out by hand (but remember it will be rather warm for a while!).
Thanks Aggie, thats what I am used to doing....but I am tiring of it. In fact when I pulled it out the first time I think I had to grind almost all of them after many years in place.
A good idea Anthony, we use those at work for similar stubborn bolts, don't know why i didnt think of that......I'll go and grab one (from the tool shop, not work!!).
Cheers,
You're using anti seize on the bolts before they go back in right Phil? The first time they come out is always a nightmare (I had to use a 3ft breaker bar to get them out of the 90), but after they've been out once I've never had a problem with them. The V6 ones are supposed to be torqued to 50NM, don't know the 4cyl off the top of my head but it would be similar (probably less as smaller bolts?) Either way that's not ridiculously tight!
Yes Matt, the copper stuff seems to work pretty good. Torque setting I have been using is V.F.T.
In hindsight 50 NM is near impossible with a right angled Allen key. Get the bit for your ratchet and you'll be laughing :)
Haha, sounds good. Yes I use the coppercoat stuff as well
Quote from: alfagtv58 on June 26, 2012, 10:08:40 AM
Thanks Aggie, thats what I am used to doing....but I am tiring of it. In fact when I pulled it out the first time I think I had to grind almost all of them after many years in place.
A good idea Anthony, we use those at work for similar stubborn bolts, don't know why i didnt think of that......I'll go and grab one (from the tool shop, not work!!).
Cheers,
Yeah - it does get a bit that way. I must admit I also have a 6mm hex socket and long extensions in my toolbox. Much easier sitting beside the car undoing the ones on the transaxle than lying on your back cursing and swearing... ;D
According to my workshop manual for the 2 litre Alfetta, the drive shaft flange bolts only require tightening to 30 Nm and that's not very tight at all.
Not sure if I should start a new thread or add to this one.
I'm pretty sure 3rd and 4th gear shouldn't look like this. It seems the dog drive let the syncro ring loose which shattered itself into 1.2m bits taking out 3rd and 4th with it. Luckily it is 3rd and 4th, as these are from standard 2L Alfetta, Hugh is going to get 1st and 2nd crack tested to be sure. The good news is the diff seems fine!
Thanks to Hugh & Mick for pulling it apart on Saturday for me.
Phil,
I think to make sure the same problem doesn't happen again, best you and I swap engine.
I think your engine is putting too much torque through the gear box.
;D
Quote from: hmd on July 09, 2012, 12:04:11 PM
Phil,
I think to make sure the same problem doesn't happen again, best you and I swap engine.
I think your engine is putting too much torque through the gear box.
;D
hmd, how 'bout we swap transaxles instead ;D
I just thought I would report on how the rebuild went. I took it down to Richard at Avanti who pulled it down. I believe the second gear area was a little sad. He delved into his remaining stock of used but genuine Alfa synchros and put it back together. He also advised to fill it with Redline light-weight shock proof, and to take it easy and run it in. All of which I did.
I am pleased to report that the 'box is now very nice. At first and in memory of all the graunches I had heard, I was very tentative. But ran it in gently and it is very user friendly. I will always be careful, especially of second gear, but now it is sweet and I can just get on and drive it. These transaxles always had that reputation, but when built properly and treated with some minor mechanical sympathy they are not that difficult.