Guys,
Past 2-3 months irrespective of whichever brand fuel 98 octane i fill in, the engine ping's a lot between 2500 and 3500 rpm, dont feel drastic loss of power but i hate that pinging noise. Could it be cam shaft? or could it be MAF?.....as soon as i put my foot on throttle ....i hear pinging noise as if the valves are jumping.
Sure it's not a bearing rattle?
Hey DDALFA, it could be you have a faulty, knock sensor, i usually run Caltex 98 premium in my JTS, but a few years ago, i couldn't get any brand premium, due to strike\supply problems\refinery down\etc, and i used scungy 92 octane, and this was during the summer, and i do a bit of hill work, but no pinging, but the car seemed to lack a bit of torque, but you may get an alarm if the knock sensor is faulty, Colin.
Bearing rattle :-\ i would strike out that possibility ....cos the noice would continue once i leave the throttle. I am more leaned towards Colins view as i do notice a bit loss in torque ....especially while leaving clutch the revs just drops and i get a sort of jerk while getting the car off from stand still. dont know if thats typical alfa engine.
Regarding the alarm for faulty knock sensor .....havent received any warning. I have heard about JTS engines requiring change of camshaft .....i pray its not that.
the car has done 110k also i go thorugh around 3 liters of oil between servicing (10k Kms).
Quote from: DDALFA on February 29, 2012, 09:26:17 AM
Bearing rattle :-\ i would strike out that possibility ....cos the noice would continue once i leave the throttle.
Not if it's in the early stages....
Of course there are other possibilities, could be belts (particularly balance shaft) flapping under the right conditions, or balance shaft tensioner bouncing off it's stop, could be something on the exhaust rattling... My point really was, just because it sounds like pinging, doesn't mean that it IS pinging.... Probably worth taking it to your local specialist for their thoughts, might save you some money in the long run.
Quote from: DDALFA on February 29, 2012, 09:26:17 AM
I have heard about JTS engines requiring change of camshaft .....i pray its not that.
Fairly unlikely given the driving conditions required produce the noise. Worn JTS camshafts usually tend to make the car sound like a diesel at idle and low revs...
Quote from: DDALFA on February 29, 2012, 09:26:17 AM
....especially while leaving clutch the revs just drops and i get a sort of jerk while getting the car off from stand still. dont know if thats typical alfa engine.
Sounds about normal for a manual 156 JTS - they normally do seem need a bit of a rev from a standing start...
If you needed a new camshaft, because of worn lobes, then it would be down on power, if it was a valve variator, then it sounds like a diesel at startup and idle, and i only noticed a lack of torque when using rubbish 92 octane, no name petrol, i hear that the knock sensor is like a piezo microphone, and picks up the sound of the pinging and the engine computer retards the ignition, some knock sensors pick up vibration, pinging is very dangerous, it is uncontrolled ignition, the firing can happen of the glow of the sparkplugs or any carbon glowing on the cylinder head, it will break your piston rings, which will scratch your bore and leak compression past the rings, i know it happened to me with my 1st car, Colin.
COlin,
your description of pinging sounds scary .....the sound that i get is like a rattle ...checked exhaust ....definitely not comming from there .....what it feels like is the valves are jumping on their seat . expecially when i travel through citylink and if there is a wall next to road ...it sounds horrible.
I'd be getting a specialist to check this out pretty damn quickly. If there's any possibility that the problem is serious then don't dick around.
No disrespect at all to the people who have given help so far, but diagnosis over the internet is not the answer if there's any possibility you're causing further damage while considering the range of possibilities that's been suggested.
Hope you get it sorted.
Cheers
Rory
DD, what sort of fuel are you running in it?, when i have run cheap fuel, it is down on performance, pinging is a noise that sounds like marbels rattling around in a tin, you hear it when labouring car, such as chugging up hill or 5th gear at 40kph, my first car was a shocker for pinging, can pick up pinging on cars just driving past me, on a JTS, they sometimes suffer from carbon build up in the head, this can leave deposits that will glow and cause the air \ petrol mixture to fire at the wrong time, also the deposits can actually make your compression ratio go higher due to a smaller combustion area, have it checked without delay, Colin.
Colin, I switched to BP ultimate long time ago from shell power, never used other than 98 octane. Yes it does sounds like marbles in the tin can. and i have read about the carbon builtup...... in my next service i am getting the cam belts replaced (its due).......i will speak with Bruno (@ Marnello). some time ago i did speak to him about the Wynns's engine treatment .....but he warned me about it as it may cause damage to the throttle body.
http://www.wynns.net/wynns_psp_fuel.aspx
i may also get my brakes done (all 4 roters + pads) any suggestions.
FYI Rory,
the internet forum has been very helpful in previous occasions and i have always left feedback of what the problem was and how it was fixed. Last time i have problem with 4th gear popping out ...went to specialists and was told that there was problem with syncro ($2.5k quote) ...the forum helped me with pinpointing the problem and suggested the common swarf problem and the locating pin issue. went with the suggestions to another trusted ALFA specialist ...was happy to follow suggetions....for $200 the problem was fixed. thats saving of >$2k.
another time had a rattling noice underneath the engine.....went around to get it fixed.....every one scared me that its a CAT cone (very expensive).... following the suggestions from this forum, the guys were spot on. it was the connecting plate between the engine and exhaust ...cracked....fixed for $80.
I will leave it to you to do the sums.
Cheers!
Hi DDALFA
Agreed, this forum community is extremely helpful and there's a wealth of combined experience and knowledge that people are willing to share. I've benefited from it many times myself, and it's a great way to either get some initial direction on a problem or as a second opinion to counter-balance any information you get from a mechanic that doesn't ring true.
That notwithstanding, I still stand by my comments in my last post. If the symptoms as described don't provide a clear answer; if there's more than one possible cause mooted; if it's something that really needs first-hand observation to fairly assess and test the symptoms; ultimately I think you should seek out a specialist (sooner rather than if there's any chance of ongoing damage, as, arguably, there was in this case). Having canvassed opinions through this thread you should at least have some possible causes to discuss with whomever you take it to.
Keep us posted on how this goes, hope it's a simple fix.
Cheers
Rory
Quotehe engine ping's a lot between 2500 and 3500 rpm
If this is correct and it is as bad as you say, I wouldn't even be driving it to a workshop, I would be trucking it in. Seriously, pinging engines put holes in pistons and that is what Rory is trying to subtly tell you. It's happened to an 8 month old Fiat 1500 I had.Put a 12mm hole in number two piston and Mahle pistons ain't cheap. Not to mention the engine rebuild.
Fuel mixture and timing checks are an everyday job for qualified mechanics and a report about this problem should present no complex or costly information. The fix may be a different story which you might care to reasearch later once it is correctly diagnosed.
I think you are selling Rory advice short.
Regarding brake replacements, i bought some non genuine Italian rotors and Euro made Magnetti Marelli brake pads locally, and they seem to work ok, apart from the dust, next time will try something different, most likely Genuine Alfa Romeo from EB Spares, England, Colin.
Certainly Roary i will post an update on the problem. As i said, i am going to put in for the major service soon.
"I think you are selling Rory advice short."
Wow! good to see a queenslander backing up anothe one (AROCA: Queensland division), ;D,,,i gues guys u have all the alfa specialist there very genuine ...unlike us here ...some ave very genuine and some are ........
cheers guys!
Hahha. Rory owes me five bucks for that but he doesnn't know the invoice is coming. :)
No, the support is not personality or locality based at all. I just happen to agree with the facts and wanted to make a strong point for you act with care.
Anyone who calls a spade a spade is alright by me. Best of luck with the choice of workshops.
QuoteHahha. Rory owes me five bucks for that but he doesnn't know the invoice is coming.
Just add it to the pile MD, just add it to the pile ...
;D
Hi,
I bought my 156 about a month ago and was very impressed with its torque around low RPM (2.5k-3.5k). I had the cambelt replaced, the selespeed box serviced and a general service about two weeks ago. Bruno recommended me on the type of Petrol to use (NO 7/11, NO Shell) and around last week, I heard that pinging as well, on 3rd gear around 2,500RPM and I can feel that juicy torque is not there anymore. In the last two weeks I filled in a Shell station (long story, don't ask..), and hopefully can relate it to not-so-clean/good petrol, I will fill with BP/Caltex next time and we see how we go. Also, is there any additive that is recommended to clean up around the engine?
thanks a lot,
Rafa
Hello Rafa, congrats on your car, as previously stated, always use Caltex 98, no pinging heard, sometimes forced to use no name petrol, [or run out], no pinging, but lack of torque up hills, ever noticed the petrol trucks that go to no name petrol stations?, particulary dirty and old, not like the ones that go to the well known branded petrol stations, also i have noticed that the supermarket owned petrol stations don't have the 98 premium, or is that just in my area?, when you say additives to clean up engine, what do you mean? additive to pour in engine, [like Wynns], or to degrease the outside of the engine, Colin.
no shell.. haven't heard that one before... altho i only use v-power 98 for my car...
On a recent comparison test of fuels, Caltex 98 had the highest energy content of all the 98 rated fuels.
I use Flashlube in my cars.Great upper cylinder lube and keeps the carbon from building up rock hard in the chamber that can cause detonation in itself. (carbon build up from too much city driving and a lack of sustained high rpms to burn off the carbon build)
Long time ago when they had full driveway service, you could buy upper cylinder lube off the rack while you were filling up. Rmember Golden Fleece Service Stations? :) Like all things of that era, all wanished. However this is about as close as you will get to it.
Check it out.http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/valve-saver-fluid.html (http://www.flashlube.com/en/products/valve-saver-fluid.html)
Hey MD, but you wouldn't use flashlube in a 156 JTS, or any modern Alfa, only use it in old dungers that are meant to use leaded petrol, so the lead lubricates the valve seats, i know of an old XB Falcan that uses flashlube and its very good, as it would be for cars with cast iron cylinder heads that haven't got hardened valve seats, all Alfa Romeo since the 70's would have hardened valve seats, Colin.
Yes I do colcol but totally unrelated to valve seats. I use it to soften the carbon build up around rings and ring lands, the chamber crowns, piston crowns and valves. When you pull a head down that has been using flash lube all its life,the carbon is almost non existent and what is there is soft unlike the scorched on hard stuff without it.
Believe me it is entirely relevant and useful irrespective of vehicle age.
I think you have the wrong take on this product. It is a lead replacement fuel additive but it does not contain lead. That would be illegal and totally screw up the catalytic converters which it does not. If you read the MSDS on this product you will find no reference to it containing lead anywhere.
To recap then, it's not about the valves it's about the carbon and detonation..
Like i said MD, i know people who use it on old cars due to valve seat problems and it works great, as a lead replacement, didn't know it could be used in other ways, but then there has been an alarming increase in things i know nothing about, Colin.
Mate, you are obviously a seasoned player here and a knowledgeable asset to the Forum. I personally enjoy reading your posts as always they are made with a sense of "been there" and carry much credibility.
..I think if we all stick our necks out to pass opinion, sooner or later the fan belt will slip just a tad and people will gloss over it without a second thought. :)
In my case I don't just get a slipping fan belt,I occasionally skip a few coggs as well and some would say it has become a permanent feature. ;D
Cheers .
Thank you for all the comments guys, very informative indeed.
I was referring to the additive that prevents the carbon build up and cleans the injectors, what you usually pour to your petrol tank once in a while when you refill. Now I can't wait for this sh@# petrol to be finished so I could finally refill with Caltex 98, just to make sure it is all good.
Thanks again for the comments, awesome forum.
And here is an Urban Myth to consider, sometimes the 98 premium Caltex is Shell, and 98 premium Shell is Caltex, due to distribution rights and where the Service station is located and who is delivering, and what refinery is making the 98 this week and how much 98 premium the service station has, the trucking operators don't like half filling the service station tanks and you notice just before the prices 'spike', [ in Victoria anyway], the are always out of 98 premium, Colin.
colcol, personally that is what i believe. Here in Vic if someone can point me to the caltex refinery, the bp refinery, shell, united etc... then maybe i'd believe they get different fuels with different additive packages...
instead:
http://www.exxonmobil.com/Australia-English/PA/about_what_rs_altona.aspx
seems the one altona based exxonmobil (world most cashed up company) refinery makes half the fuel for all of VIC, and most likely most of inner melb...
just sayin'