Hi All,
I am thinking of purchasing a 77 gtv and have a few questions to ask.
1. Where do I look for signs of rust?
2. What type of engine/gearbox oil does it take?
3. Where can I get a workshop manual for it?
4. What are some common things to look out for?
5. What type of petrol does it take?
I'm sure there are more, I just can't think of them now.
Thanks
Joe
Hi Joe,
Welcome and good luck with the purchase! The best advice I could give you as a newbie to these cars is to get any prospective purchase inspected by one of the experienced Alfa service firms that advertise on this site. The two I would suggest you talk to are Monza Motors (http://www.monzamotors.biz/index2.html) and Maranello Pursang (http://www.maranellopursang.com/). Both are very experienced in these cars and will give you an honest assessment of a particular car for a very reasonable fee.
Hi Joe
Welcome! Good luck with the purchase and I hope you join the ranks. To answer some of your questions (as best as I can);
1. All over! They are not the best cars when it comes to rust. Hot spots include; bottom of the tailgate, bottom of the A pillar, door sills. Unless it has been repaired, expect to find rust.
2. Plenty of choice and a topic of much discussion. Also dependent on condition of engine and driving conditions. I personally like Penrite. Gearbox oil is supposed to be a 75/80 gear oil. I use Redline Lightweightwhich is awesome and awesomely priced.
3. Try the Pit Stop bookshop website (http://www.pitstop.net.au/). The Haynes manual is very comprehensive.
4. Common issues? Driveshaft doughnuts; electrical gremlins; synchros, especially second; engine compression etc
5. Leaded petrol, unless it has been converted.
Cheers
Julian
You can safely use and should use 98 premium with the car "as is". No additives or lead replacement required.
Quote from: joestram on February 16, 2012, 10:48:16 AM
Hi All,
I am thinking of purchasing a 77 gtv and have a few questions to ask.
1. Where do I look for signs of rust?
2. What type of engine/gearbox oil does it take?
3. Where can I get a workshop manual for it?
4. What are some common things to look out for?
5. What type of petrol does it take?
I'm sure there are more, I just can't think of them now.
Thanks
Joe
1. Much better to find areas which aren't rusty, and ask why..... Be VERY careful of rust which has been covered up. A recent respray would make me nervous. They rust everywhere but the critical spots are the base of the A-pillars and around the front suspension sheetmetal supports. Take a look here : http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-restoration/14822-alfetta-sill-cut.html (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-restoration/14822-alfetta-sill-cut.html) It's a sedan but it's almost identical to the coupe in the areas that count. They also rust around the rear hatch, the hatch hinges in the body, and along the top of the doors where the stainless trim attaches. Of course the bottoms of doors and the rear, lower areas behind the wheels.
3. Ebay. The Haynes manual is quite OK. Just make sure you get the Euro manual, NOT the one for U.S,-market cars. U.S. cars had Spica fuel injection where our cars have carbies.
4. If you aren't familiar with the Alfetta, the gearbox is separated from the engine all the way down the back. The clutch is co-located with the transmission, and driven by a propshaft which is always spinning at engine RPM. There are three rubber 'donuts' (giubos) which are critical, relatively expensive, and a right bugger to change.
Geashifts are slow, even in a pristine transmission, and synchros, particularly 2nd gear, are weak.
Engine mounts can suffer heat damage from the exhaust. Exhaust can get crushed where the two pipes go into the single section under the car.
Factory (Carello) headlamps are expensive, and there are no aftermarket replacements available unless you do some considerable reworking of the mounts.
Earlier cars have glue-in windshields and later ones have a rubber gasket. The screens are different sizes and not interchangeable. Damaged screen trims are very dificult to straighten.
3. The Haynes manual is available for download as a PDF in various locations, can be found with a few minutes searching. So I hear.
Joe,
6. It's fun to drive.
AL.
Thanks for your input everyone.
The car has been recently resprayed in yellow....So Paul Bayly you have confirmed my fears.
There is a little rust in the engine bay but im not sure if it's surface rust? There are no holes through the rusty area. Or how easy it will be to remove.
This is a extremely stupid question, but what if there is rust? Does it effect the cars strength? It's not like the car will crack while I'm driving, will it?
Thanks
Joe
That really depends on where the rust is and how deep it is.
In these cars in the engine bay there is an area to the top of the inner guards, just behind the shock absorber mount, that is notorious for rusting. And there is another area under the corner of the windscreen where it's also very common to find rust. Both are extremely hard and not cheap to treat properly and you need to get some expert opinion on them.
The other thing is that if rust is showing there and the car is recently painted then you can be prettty sure there will be rust hidden in other places. Pretty much everywhere on these cars can rust so it's really hard to narrow it down in this forum, but look carefully around all windows, along the sills, along the bottom and top of the doors, around the tailgate (on the tailgate itself and around the hinges in particular), and the rear panel in behind the bumper abd around the tail lights. Oh - also on the front guards behind the front wheels, on the outside and inside of the panel.
Even with the increased value of these cars recently, the high cost of quality body work means its very easy to make extensive rust repairs uneconomical.
Thanks for your advice Aggie.
So does rust mean the car will crumble?
If the car has rust and it has been painted over, how long will it take to show?
I am very sorry for the questions - I just have no idea of the consequences or rust.
Thanks
Joe
Quote from: joestram on February 17, 2012, 01:32:56 PM
So does rust mean the car will crumble?
Are you sure you're ready for a car?
Rust is VERY BAD. Your car is not legally roadworthy if it has any rust (technically it has to be 'structural' I believe, but that essentially means anywhere on the car, but I'm not absolutely sure on surface rust), so not only will it be at risk of being taken off the road if spotted, it will not be insured in event of an accident, and you won't get a roadworthy certificate in the first place, so you won't be able to register it.
If it's been painted over it will probably take a few months to re-appear, maybe up to a year, depending on if it's stored inside or out, and how good the 'patch-up' was.
It would take pretty bad rust before the car would start to fall apart, but yes, if it got bad enough in pillars or sills, or around suspension, then the structural integrity of the car is compromised, especially in an accident.
Rust is non-negotiable I'm afraid. If buying a first Alfa, avoid a rusty car at all costs, and get a potential purchase inspected beforehand by an Alfa expert, it will save you a lot of money and heartache in the long run.
And Aggie is right on the money; these cars are very desirable, and rising in value, but rust repairs can be very difficult and expensive on them, rendering the worst of them valueless.
Don't give up on the idea of an Alfa, but just ensure you go into it with your eyes open, and armed with all the facts. Buying and owning an old Alfa takes more knowledge, and work, than buying a Toyota. But there's a reason we all do it anyway....
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on February 17, 2012, 01:58:07 PM
Are you sure you're ready for a car?
Hi,
Thanks for advice and information.
I am ready for a car, however, I don't have any experience or knowledge in regards to bodywork.
As mentioned in my earlier post, I am very sorry for the novice question, however, I needed to bridge the gap in my knowledge.
Thanks
Joe
Joe,
Don't be concerned about the questions. We've all been through the process at some stage (first car, first Alfa) and I think I can speak for everyone when I say we are happy to help out. Those not happy won't respond ;)
Surface Rust? No such thing on a painted Alfa. Surface rust is the thin film of discolouration which occurs on unpainted steel. Rust in an Alfa is the real deal >:(
The problem these days is that no-one really wants to tackle rust properly, because the owner won't pay the money required to do the job. No-one wants to work for peanuts, and no-one is prepared to spend $20K to get a $10K car looking good.
Most mechanical things are relatively simple to fix, and you can get buy with used parts. No such luck with rust though, either fix it properly at high cost, or walk away. Simply covering it up with paint is a waste of time, money, and a car.
Having said that, rust in the external panels (door skins etc) is not too bad a problem, but will still cost money to fix.
Imagine the car stripped of everything. Glass, doors, boot lid, bonnet, engine, drivetrain. The 'chassis' you are left with is the critical part. Any rust in this bit is going to require fixing. Invariably the 'chassis' is formed from a complex mix of multi-curved and layered sheetmetal sections, which are very difficult to replicate or repair.
Scared yet? ;D
Joe, check your PRIVATE MESSAGES ;)
No problem Joe. As Paul says we all started somewhere.
If there is any doubt about this '77 GTV you're looking at perhaps you may want to look at something a bit later, around '84. That would be what we call a 'plastic' or 'rubber' bumper car so it looks a little different to the earlier 'steel' bumpered ones like the '77 would be. But by the early 80's Alfa had improved their bodywork hugely so those '84 and later cars don't have nearly the same body issues as the early ones.
That's not to say you'd buy one without having it checked properly but your chances of finding one that won't dissappoint you down the track is much less.
Quote from: Fast Eddie on February 16, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
You can safely use and should use 98 premium with the car "as is". No additives or lead replacement required.
Is that 'unless it has been converted' as advised by GTVeloce?
Quote from: Craig C on February 18, 2012, 08:25:24 AM
Quote from: Fast Eddie on February 16, 2012, 08:09:08 PM
You can safely use and should use 98 premium with the car "as is". No additives or lead replacement required.
Is that 'unless it has been converted' as advised by GTVeloce?
IMHO Eddie is right. There is no need for lead replacement additive in these engines. The standard valve seats inserts are hard (alloy head - most of the issues with the removal of lead were in iron heads without inserts). "Super" leaded fuel was about 97 RON so 98 is a good replacement (there is more to fuel burn characteristics than one magic number, but its a good start). Aside from that, you don't want any fuel with ethanol in it. You will be fine with any of the "branded" 98 PULP products.
Better still Joe, become a member of aroca and provided you are not in a rush, a club car will become available which in most cases will be in better than average nick or if it does have issues they will more than likely be pointed out by the selling member i would hope. Doug
98 Premium with no modifications or additives.
So what engine oil is mainly used in the alfetta 2lt?
I'm not really after the brand - just the type and if it's full synth or not?
Thanks
Joe
Penrite HPR30
Yep, I'd use HPPR30. But I did use Kmart/Big-W sourced Mobil Super Drop for the firt 8 years in my '79 Alfetta. 5000km changes. I only changed to BP Corse+ after moving to the NT as it held pressure better at a sustained 90-100mph :D
The engine was torn down at 220,000kms with no unusual wear noted.
However, that was in the eighties so there may have been more zinc content in even cheaper oils back then.
Anyone considered using a diesel engine oil? HPR Diesel 20W/60 has more zinc than the HPR30.
Joe, there is no such thing as "the type". Formulations with the same numbers and letters on the sticker aren't all the same especially in what additive pack they run. There is more than one right answer (ie oil that will do the job) but you *can't* say "The engine needs a 20W-50 or 20W-60 oil, any one will do...".
Valvoline alone make at least 5 separate oils meeting that spec, not all suitable for your engine and I can't find the detailed specs for any of them so am not keen to use even the (2) oils they recommend for this car... The current Penrite HPR30 formulation is a 20W-60 oil with adequate levels of additives (published specs) needed to lubricate the valve train on engines like yours, that a lot of people here use in these engines with good results. Use it or do your research starting with threads on oil suitability on this board...
Also note that "brand x product y" changes formulation over the years and may not still be suitable even if some older version was...
HPR30 has been used by Alfa owners for many many years for good reason. Actually I was a little surprised to see it is still one of the oils of choice when I saw it mentioned here; its been around for so long.
One of the things I always liked about using it was that it keeps the engine very clean (on the inside!). Strip down an engine that has been run on Penrite and, so long as it has been changed as it should be, you'll be amazed at how clean things are.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
Looks like I'm going to buy some Penrite later today :)
Hey everyone,
I am just about to service my car today and was wondering how much oil goes back in?
Thanks
Joe
Lots and enough.... :D
Supposedly 5.6 litres but it varies. I could always safely pour in an entire 5L container, let it sit, check the level, then gradualy top up to the full mark.
Have you sourced a book for it yet?
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Alfa-Romeo-Alfetta-1973-1987-Haynes-workshop-manual-/330662386035?pt=AU_Clothing_Merchandise_Media&hash=item4cfd039973
I prefer it on paper but if you prefer ones & zeros....and prepared to risk copyright infringement...: http://www.filecrop.com/haynes-alfa-romeo-alfetta.html
Hi Everyone,
I just picked up another alfetta and have a couple of mechanical issues.
I have a lot of oil coming out of the rocker cover gasket on the alternator side and was wondering where I can get these gaskets and if there are any tricks to replacing these or if it is straight forward?
Also, when I press the brakes, nothing happens. I had to use the handbrake to stop today. The pedal feels normal but nothing happens. I also noticed that there was no fluid in the bottle connected to the master cylinder so my question is - can I just fill it up or is there a technique to topping up the brake fluid?
Also, the clutch seems quite stiff compared to my old alfetta - I know the old alfetta I owned had the master clutch cylinder changed so it might feel different because of that or does the stiffness mean something else?
Thanks guys.
Joe
So what happened Joe? You didn't hang on to the first one for long. Someone make you an offer you couldn't refuse ;)
The gaskets are available at most of the Alfa spares suppliers (check the main AROCA Vic front page). These gaskets are relatively thick and get hard and eventially crack.
Clean off all the old gasket and glue it into place on the cam cover. Make sure the surfaces on the head are clean. Coat the mating surface with engine oil and place the cam cover in place and lightly do up the cover bolts and let the glue dry. This keeps the gasket on the cam cover but you won't destroy it every time you remove the cover. I've never used anything else when fitting covers (e.g. silicone etc) and while the gaskets may seep a little, never had a bad leak. I've found it's rarely good practice to apply a sealant on both sides of a gasket.
As for the brakes, a full bleed is in order, but you may have other issues. If you are still getting pedal pressure but she won't stop, I'd say you have at least one seized caliper, and maybe a siezed/blocked proportioning valve. Could be an inoperative brake booster.
But give the whole system a visual inspection first and adjust the rear brakes correctly. I've seen all manner of dodgy repairs people will do just to get a car sold.
Have you bought yourself a workshop manual yet? If not I'll have to give you a virtual uppercut ..... ;D If you aren't mechanically experienced, and even if you are but are not Alfamiliar, you really MUST use a manual. The Haynes type Alfetta manuals are very simple (the vehicles are very simple, but different) and you could easily read it cover to cover in a day (there are lots of pictures to take up space).
Hey Paul,
Thanks for replying.
I figured that the 76 had a little too much rust for me as a beginners car.
I ended up purchasing a 79 gtv which has no rust on it but has a couple mechanical issues which I figured would be easier and cheaper to fix.
Thanks for the advice - I will give these a shot.
How long (minus the glue setting) does it take to remove and install the cam cover?
I did buy myself the haynes manual - but I just find it really hard to make out the black and white pictures and also find there isn't that much detail.
I wish there were better manuals I could buy that had lots of info and colour pics.
Cam cover is easy to remove and install, and it should be, and often.... ;)
From memory, you should have two small bolts at the front (10mm spanner/socket), disconnect the oil vapour tube off the front RHS, and the smaller tube at the same point, then the large cam cover bolts (17mm spanner?).
If the cover is stuck, give it a thump with your fist, or better, with a soft mallet (gently, sideways). Try not to resort to using a lever/screwdriver.
When reinstalling, don't be tempted to crank the bolts down too tight. The cover is unsupported under these bolts and you can crack it.
Also note that the six big bolts should have metal (aluminium) washers/gaskets under the rear two, and fibre gaskets under the others. Supposedly to ensure a good earth path, but I can't fathom why it needs to be earthed. Maybe to reduce corrosion, because there certainly isn't anything electrical conected to the cover. People tell me there can be arcing inside the cover if it's not earthed, causing damage to valve shims, but I'm not convinced. But, the designers must have had their reasons.
I have a couple of manuals and you are correct that some of the photos are awful. My earliest manual has drawings rather than photos and is a lot better. Strangely it seems to have less text but more information..... ::)