OK guys I am just curious, is it hard and/or costly do install a motor, lets say a GTA 3.2 or 164 Q motor into a GTV6?
Seen a few done so im hoping its not too difficult:)
A 12 valve 164 engine (164 / 164Q) is pretty straightforward. A 24-valve conversion (166 / GTA etc) less so.
Well I'm a very keen person to learn and seek advice to know how to install the engine:) Ok so I understand the heads will obviously different between 164Q 12V engine and a GTA 24V motor, but how the engine mount positions on both types of engines? Are they similar due to both coming from FWD or are they completely different? Also how would you go about the engine mounts? Would I need to get custom ones made or are there already ones out there? sorry for all the questions haha:p
Basicly with Alfas everything need to be custom made. You can fit anything into your Alfa,like choder said it come down to level of mechanical competency, how how much money do you have.
Engine mounts are the least of your problems. You need -
ECU + coil packs
New Extractors
Modify the sump for north south orientation
Modified Plennum + New Air Intake (depending on what comes with 24v you've got)
There are also differences between a 3.0t 24v and a 3.2lt GTA 24v. We know! We replaced the existing 3.0lt 24v with a new 3.2lt GTV 24v!
164 24v, not so bad as it shares the 12v type oil pump and the RWD sump bolts on without fouling the oil pump pickup. However, 156, 147, 166, GT, etc 2.5, 3.0 and 3.2 engines all have a chain drive oil pump with the pick up in a different position so the sump doesn't clear. Also, I believe the later engines have the crank angle sensor at the back of the engine looking at the flywheel which is a bit awkward because you need to use the RWD flywheel.
There is some discussion and pictures of the oil pump pick up and sump in the redalfaracing (Greg Wyatt) rally car thread.
Scott
By way of contrast a 12v 3.0 is a pretty straightforward process. You pull out the 2.5, strip everything off the block and heads including sump, intake, starter, flywheel, and fuel system. Swap the distributor drive and water pump off the 2.5 onto the 3.0 (you need to remove the right hand head to do the dizy but that's easy). Bolt everything from the 2.5 onto the 3.0, have the 2.5 flywheel and front pulley balanced to match the 3.0, insert a 4mm spacer between the crank and the flywheel and chuck it in the car.
Then bolt up the 2.5 wiring and off you go. Oh, don't forget to 'adjust' the rear engine mount, starter mount, flywheel cover plate and a few sump bolt holes and the gasket.
Could have forgotten something seeing its 14 years since I did the job.
Or pay Hugh to do it, sit back and watch Senna.....💺😊
try talking to milano spares as the do some mods to put later engines into earlier cars, thats if they are still in business
Aggie's advice in both his posts is pretty spot on (although I don't recall having to remove a head). A 12V swap is reasonably straight forward, I managed one on my own (but with the kind loan of Aggie's engine stand), and it was the first engine swap I'd done. It took me about a week of research beforehand, about $1000 in tools and parts, and about 3 months to complete (it was during winter).
Even with that, I've seen grown Alfa mechanics have teething issues with a 12V transplant, and hearing the stories of 24V transplants..... :o :o ??? :o You would need a very good workshop, and an extremely competent good friend to do it yourself.
Have a good read through these threads...
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-management/26315-vems-install-my-verde.html
http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/milano-75-1987-1989/27358-roxanne-budget-milano-75-track-car-39.html#post307503
...and have another think about it. As I said, I managed to do a 12V, and I'm not a very competent mechanic, but I was able to get good advice and borrow special tools along the way.
But, if you can afford a good 24v engine, maybe you can afford to pay $5k to get someone to install it. Assuming anyone would do it for that price....
And IMHO opinion, a 3.0 12V is all you'd ever need in a GTV6. On the road at least.
The right hand head had to come off on mine because the ratio between the 2.5 dizy drive and the idler on the front of the head (on the 3.0 engine) was different. It was a very early 3.0 so maybe they changed it later.
And yes, agree that a 12v 3.0 is perfectly adequate for a road car. Add some of Vin's extractors and you're away....
But if you've tried a 24v in a road car .... Who was it that started that Alfa 911 thread?!
Thanks everyone for their advice!
Especially Aggie thanks heaps!
Hmm after reading all this info I am kind of trying to decide to either use a 164 12V (if I can a Q motor), or a 24V 164 motor, seems it fits in easier than the later model cars and sounds like a lot of work to do the later model engines.
Although I do like a challenge and the GTA motor still is a goal for me;)
However this is a future project, just wanting to get advice for now, look around and see what is available and try learn a few mechanical things myself.
I am very well acquainted with milano spares, been going there since I got into alfas, yes they are still in business and will be giving him a visit shortly to discuss this topic:)
I do plan to try find a GTV6 in the near future as I've been dying to have one since I first saw one close up!
As I currently own a 164 Q I am quite impressed with its performance and beautiful engine note so if I had to use one of these with a few mods would be a very good road performer...may look into building one for twin turbo charging;) buts thats for another idea haha!
I do plan to put a few grand into the car as I want the conversion done properly without any glitches( hopefully none!), however I do want to learn to do things myself on the mechanical side, I do have family who worked with alfas for years so hopefully they can give some good advice.
Thanks again for everyones help and valuable advice!
Aggie and Sheldon, how was your experiences with doing these conversions?
Did you encounter very troublesome problems along the way or did you have relatively free-flowing success with the engines?
I guess, research, time, patience and money will get you a good job!
Also Aggie, do you the details of Hugh?
Thanks Choderboy! Oh so hes located in melbourne which works well!
in people's opinion tho who would be better to go to talk about this, Maranello Pursang or Monza Motors? Or try get the best advice from both?
I was just reading on another alfa forum, check this out, 24V V6 into a GTV6:
http://www.alfagtv6.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1088
here's his car on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dVOaPf27vM&feature=related
Think answers my question on who to see!
Although I wonder why the engine was smoking haha!
Quote from: gtv6sv on January 17, 2012, 11:49:27 PM
Aggie and Sheldon, how was your experiences with doing these conversions?
Did you encounter very troublesome problems along the way or did you have relatively free-flowing success with the engines?
I guess, research, time, patience and money will get you a good job!
Also Aggie, do you the details of Hugh?
Had no real issues that I can recall either with the conversion or later with the engine in the car. I did it in 1996 so the 3.0 engines were relatively rare and it was one of the very first conversions done locally. All I did was take my time and fit, adjust, re-fit etc. until it was right. The engine ran reliably for the 8 years I had it after that, in two different cars.
What I did find though was that much of the talk at the time about different ECU's and different AFM's etc. was incorrect. The early 3.0 engines used exactly the same ECU, injectors and AFM as the 2.5 engines. Alfa put different part numbers on them but the Bosch part numbers in most cases were the same. Obviously later motronic systems were different but not those early L-Jetronic's.
The real differences in those engines are external and relate to the need to package it for FWD, with many of the changes needed being made not just to the engines that went into 164's but also later 75's and Milano's. Examples - all later engine blocks are machined shorter than early 2.5 ones and the crank is also shorter. Also, the distributor drive on a 164 is taken from the rear of the left hand head, off the cam. On the GTV6 and 75 it's from the front of the right hand head directly off the front drive. So on 75's you see a blanking plate on the rear of the left hand head. Saves them casting different heads for the two installations.
I was lucky at the time in having a 2.5 GTV6 engine, a Milano (75) 3.0 engine and a 164 3.0 engine on the floor at the same time. Which meant I could compare directly and where necessary measure different components. Which is how we ended up with the 4mm spacer for the flywheel.
if u go on http://alfagtv6.com/ on the left side of page click technical then 164 3.0 into gtv6, it is a word document with all u need to know, i used it when i converted my 3.0 for rwd just need to finish other projects before it goes in 8)
Look to me like Alister had done everything there is to do in a 116.
And look at what he ends up with a 911 ;D
Quote from: hmd on January 18, 2012, 02:25:46 PM
Look to me like Alister had done everything there is to do in a 116.
And look at what he ends up with a 911 ;D
I do like my
911 but I spend my time talking to people who drive Alfa's.
Quote from: gtv6sv on January 17, 2012, 11:49:27 PM
Aggie and Sheldon, how was your experiences with doing these conversions?
Did you encounter very troublesome problems along the way or did you have relatively free-flowing success with the engines?
I guess, research, time, patience and money will get you a good job!
Also Aggie, do you the details of Hugh?
I didn't have too many problems when I did mine, certainly nothing that hadn't been experienced by everyone before, and was easily fixed by googling the problem. I think my only major problem was trying to get the engine out on my own; that took me a week, and apparently it can't be done on your own...well, I'm here to tell you it can, but it's not much fun!!
Other than that, I went through everything methodically, and it all worked reasonably well. I had issues taking out some of the studs from the engine, but some borrowed Wurth product fixed that.
Apart from that, I had to look at the valve clearances after the first couple of times I used it, but this was to be expected really; the engine came from an auto 164, so probably had a pretty easy life, and then suddenly it's getting thrashed to within an inch of it's life for 15 minutes at a time, 5 times a day.
Since I'm still using the intake and exhaust from the 2.5, the 3.0 does feel a little breathless when the revs get high (over 5000rpm). The torque increase is very noticeable though, and I would certainly do this mod to any road 2.5 I owned.
For what it's worth, the engine alone made me 4 seconds a lap quicker around Phillip Island. As anyone that's been at Phillip Island would attest to, 1 second there is hard to come by, let alone 4.
Oh yeah, and I should just add.... I'd done mods to my brakes and suspension before I did this transplant. My brakes and suspension are more than good enough for a 3.0 12V. It's the old story, power should be the last of your considerations, concentrate on brakes and suspension before anything else.
at the moment the 12V seems to be the safer and cheaper option, a good 3 litre with a slightly tuned engine or turbo charging seems like a good way to get power:) although suspension and brakes must be the most important to upgrade first!
Will try to speak to a few members in club meetings coming up :)
Definately got a lot of help thanks heaps everyone!
Are you planning to buy a GTV6 to do this to? As I see you now have a 4 cylinder - makes things a lot easier if you start with a V6, since you don't have to chase up individually all the little bits and pieces required (some of which are getting harder to find).