Hi all
I thought it was about time I started recording my rebuild as I am on the homeward stretch and getting excited again! I have always referred to it as project GTV but I titled this post Alfa 911 for a good reason. It symbolises my rationale behind most of my decisions before and during the rebuild. Basically, I have owned an 83 Alfetta GTV for 10 years or more which has gone through so many re-incarnations and improvements that it didn't really resemble the original car anymore but I very much enjoyed driving it. It finally died (accident) in January and i decided to build another one using some of the good parts from the old car as well as rebuilding everything else. So, why Alfa 911? My brother owns a 1982 Porsche 911 SC which is in immaculate condition and came from the factory with the Bilstein suspension package. Needless to say it is an awesome car to drive. What I most like is the philosophy behind the car (and all 911's) - the car can be driven to work everyday; then driven to the race track on the weekend and flogged around; then driven home again. In other words, an everyday drivable car with creature comforts and yet track ready and capable. I didn't want to but a 911 as my brother already has one (and they are not cheap) so I decided to use the same philiosophy into my GTV. I will follow up with pictures soon but the basic details so far are;
- I have stripped two GTV's; my one and a donor one I bought in April
- The body is currently being 'refreshed' and should be back sometime around xmas. It will be good ol Alfa red!
- I rebuilt the engine (a 2lt TS) about two years ago and am in the process of tidying it up now. Meaning stripping all the ancillories off; new rubbers, hoses etc; painting the cam cover black etc.
- the transaxle is also TS and in great condition with a really good isostatic
- the rear suspension has bigger rear springs, a GTV6 a/r bar so that I can fit an adjustable bar down the track and Bilstein shocks as well as new bushes everywhere
- the front suspension has new ball joints Bilstein shocks and new bushes all over. I am waiting on Vin to finish some 28mm bars and longer upper ball joints to finish it off.
- Most new bushes have been replaced with poly, but a few have been replaced with rubber. The reasoning comes back to my design brief for the car. It needs to handle well enough for the track but still be comfortable enough for everyday road use and even country touring.
- The brakes have been replaced with 75 TS Brembo's that have been rebuilt. Braided steel lines have been added along with racing fluid. There is a new m/c and booster as well.
- The clutch is original although it has just had a new thrust bearing put in.
- I have put a lot of (with plenty more to go) sound deadener (dynapad) throughout the car to reduce noise getting into the cabin as well as reduce heat coming through from underneath, through the doors and through the firewall.
- I have installed a boot light using an old interior light and a pressure switch linked to the tailgate.
- The rear seats have been removed and replaced with a sound system that is designed to be made to look like it was original and is finished off with black carpet to match the rest of the car. I have taken inspiration from the Ferrari GT cars.
- I have installed electric windows, electric mirrors on both sides and a central locking kit. I have rebuilt the heater unit and installed a resistor in the fan control to lower the fan speed on setting 1 (I have always found the first setting to fast and too noisy).
- The speedo has the electronic converter installed so it will be accurate with the TS box (yet to be tested).
- The petrol tank has been modyfied to make use of the 75 TS sender unit as well the intank fuel pump.
- I have installed a starter button (no reason other than I wanted too!)
- I have replaced the stalk with a new unit as the old one was naffed.
- I am going to install relays on the lights, windows and wipers to improve their ability as well as longevity of my stalk!
- New rubber guibos (doughnut) on driveshaft.
- I have improved the a/c system by replacing some of the hoses and insulating them; using the TS compressor and using one of the latest hydro carbon refrigerants available.
- I have installed a 75 TS fan to replace the two noisy thermo fans.
- I have put the five stud hubs on. Currently I have just some standard 75 wheels but down the track will be looking at somethinmg bigger and better looking but not sure what yet as I don't want to ruin my ride quality.
Hopefully by the time this is all finished I will have what I wanted - an Alfa that drives like a 911! I realise this won't be to everone's taste but I don't actually want the car to look too radical i.e. a non alfisti might not realise the modifications as I have generally tried to make them look as standard as possible. Therefore the body looks original and the interior also looks mostly original except for the rear seats of course! The bulk of these mods are hidden under something or inside something. I thought about installing a six but I prefer the balance be kept and the TS is such a good engine.
Pics to follow in the next few days.
Julian
Ok, some pics. The first is of the car on its way to the panel beaters.
The second and third are of the TS engine before a tidy up and the transaxle during a tidy up.
The last is of the sound system getting built. This is built where the rear seats would be normally. This has the benefit of keeping the boot full size and also puts the weight (quite sizable with two subs, two amps and heavy 19mm mdf) centred and low in the car. It also means I have a storage space on top which can take two golf bags that don't fit in the boot!
Alfa 944 is more applicable?
Yes, probably. Certainly from a mechanical layout point of view. Anyway, here is a gratuitous pic of my inspiration - my brother's 911.
Nice looking SC (apart from the whale tail, but that's just my personal opinion), what colour is that? The SC is a very nice car, I once drove one on the track, and like you say in your earlier post it was a daily driver with just a change to race tyres for track days, and it was glorious.
Nice idea behind your build, sounds like it will be very nice, shame it's not a 6 though. ;) I plan on doing something similar to a road 90, utilising the stuff I've learnt on my track car; 3.0 engine, 28 or 30 TBs, konis, stiff rear; to make it a nice touring car which can still boogie in the twisties if required.
If you haven't seen Chris Harris' 911 build I highly recommend it, it's very inspiring. Here's the summation of it, but search hard enough and there are various videos of the build as it went on. I have all of them on my phone, and watch them occasionally for inspiration. It's a stunning car. http://skiddplayer.com/video/5721/drivers-republic-chris-harris- (http://skiddplayer.com/video/5721/drivers-republic-chris-harris-)
Keep us updated, sounds interesting.
Thanks Sheldon. The colour is Kiln Red which is the original colour. My brother has Toyo Proxes (205/45/16 & 225/40/16) for around town and then changes to the Toyo Proxes R Spec for race use. The car is a very similar weight to the Alfetta although obviously a very different balance. I prefer the balance of the Alfetta platform but the performance of the 911 is amazing. 220hp in a 1 ton car, especially given the traction off the line and the direct steering and you don't forget driving one in a hurry!
I will check out Chris Harris' videos for inspiration.
Nice work Julian,
It's good to have a plan, it gives you something to change ;) And don't be too concerned about any of the mods you've carried out, most are easily reversed, and all make for a better experience. By building a streetable car it means that chassis number lives on and isn't just relegated to a rusty hulk under someone's gum tree with grass growing through the floor.
A six is good, but in my opinion the Alfetta GTV-TS is the best car Alfa never built. I've only owned one 75TS but I reckon it's one of Alfas best engines. It has enough, but not too much power for the 116 chassis and retains that ultimate forgivability I love about Alfettas handling (yes, the 75 and the 90 are Alfettas in my book).
What have you planned as far as rust prevention goes? Much easier to do it while the body is stripped out.
It's ready to paint!
QuoteWhat have you planned as far as rust prevention goes? Much easier to do it while the body is stripped out.
Um, no real plan to be honest. All the rust has been replaced with new metal and will be painted but other than that no plans. Any thoughts of what else I could/should do?
Thanks for the comments Paul and I agree with you that the Alfetta GTV-TS is the best car Alfa never built. It would have been interesting to see how sales would have been if Alfa had built the Alfa 75 with the body of the GTV.
nice work, i too love a 911 sc, never used to really like them but after driving one i want one ;D
i like the ts but i think a gtv with 1.8t and its transaxle would be the best alfa never built ;)
Something you may want to investigate, but just keep it between us....., is fitting the headlight buckets from a US market car. This allows the fitment of any 5-3/4 inch diameter headlamps giving you much more choice for a lot less $$$ than the stock Carellos. It does give the car a slightly different look, but I had a '76 set up with twin, twin filament headlights (with suitable relays of course) and man, what a revelation in Alfa lighting ;D. Stupidly I sold the two spare sets of buckets I had a couple of years back.
Sounds like a good idea. I had thought about cutting the glass out of the Carello's and siliconing them into some aftermarket semi-sealed beams but I haven't worked it through yet. I could fashion some sort of plug if needs be as well but it sounds like the US spec buckets could save me some effort.
There is a good thread here on headlights, full of detail. I have done this to my car and they come up a treat. Although, I havent got around to do the wiring yet, unregistered race car, lights not really needed!
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=1464.0
After a nice break over Christmas and New Year it is back to work and back to working on the car! Just before a I left I picked up the car from the painters and am very happy with the work done (the spleen I had to sell to finance it was of little importance...). Now comes the fun part - putting it all together!
Just came across your thread - nice car, nice philosophy... Just one thing: 911 is an upside-down 116! Do be careful out there!
Ha ha! Well spotted Graham. Yes, hopefully that's not the fate of my resto!
Quick update: I have mostly finished my tidy up of the engine and it is now installed along with the driveshaft. I just need to finish curing the cam cover (painted it wrinkle finish black) and bolt on. Then I will take a few photos and post them.
One snag I have come across: I am using the isostatic linkages and in doing so I need to remove some metal to allow room for the linkages. I did this before in another car without any problems. On the weekend I have done the same thing but this time the linkages are coming in contact with the tunnel as well. I'm comfortable removing a little metal that is not structural but the tunnel I don't wish to touch. What I don't understand is why this is being a problem this time! The bodies are both from 83 116 GTV's so they should be the same. The transaxle crossmember went in without any problems so I don't think that is any issue. Any thoughts?
When you say coming into contact with the tunnel do you mean around the isostatic mechanism itself, right in front of the clutch housing?
The floor pan on isostatic cars is different to non-isostatic ones; the change was made around september 1984 so a 1983 car will have the earlier floorpan. Isostatic cars have a depression in the floor at the point to provide the necessary clearance; pre-iso cars do not.
One commonly used approach for the above issue is to "relieve" the floor with a 4lb sledge. Sounds rough but doesn't need much and no metal needs to be removed.
I have finally had a chance to get around to putting pictures of the engine in. I also have started playing around with putting the body bits and pieces back on. Just testing their fitment at the moment and then will paint them before fitting them properly. What are people's thoughts on colour of bumper etc? I am leaning towards body colour but some have suggested metallic grey would be better. I have painted window surrounds and small trim pieces in metallic grey.
Sorry Aggie57, I just realised I hadn't responded to your comment. My 83 body is pre-isostatic but so was the previous one. With the previous one all I had to do was 'relieve' some of the metal to make space. This time I have done that but the linkages are still rubbing quite severely on the tunnel. I am wondering whether maybe I have put the linkages on incorrectly this time. It looks ok but clearly something doesn't match up.
Julian- I f**kn love it ;)
Another Julian with the same philosophy on a GTV6!
Mine's an 85, was a 2.0, engine now a 2.5 V6 - 11.3:1 comp, big valves, Ex Colin Bond camshafts and an ancient Haltech F7 or something. (You may have seen it years ago in a silver Alfetta sedan, which is now a 3.0 12v TT). Revs to 8000, 180rwhp.
Box is 75 3.0 with a 4.3:1, re-packed LSD, Iso linkage and a custom clutch, fitted TS front brakes and currently on Bilsteins with lowered and stiffer rear springs.
Work to be done:
Mine's a little more serious on the resto side of things than yours looks to be- copped a hit up the rear beaver which I un-picked- it'll have a repair section welded in and some rust cut out. All glass and framing out, all trim off= to be painted like yours- red with gunmetal trim. Full (original) Zender kit to be fitted.
* Floors have had ALL bitumen chipped out and are being painted with www.lizardskin.com
* Original Tan pinstripe material (apparently on its' way from Israel....) purchased to re-trim the interior back to factory. Got the Recaro LXs in the picture. Old seats are not worth selling- they aren't original GTV mesh headrest ones, but older Recaros- they're gone.
* Keeping wind up windows, and taking a different path to you, as I want to keep it around the 1050- 1100kg mark with the V6 in it.
* Stereo to be made up in a portable box so I can remove it for the track. Hard to imagine, but this will happen down the track.
* Swapping to 5 bolt hubs and fitting 156 Superturismo rims for now. These will become my track rims when the road rubber wears out.
After I get it registered again,
* RS Racing Coilovers
* GTA brembos for the front, trying to figure out vented rears on a budget.
* Haltech E11V2 to be wired in
* GSXr 1000 Throttle bodies - I have a mate who'll make up a manifold for me- he's a tool maker- builds his own EVERYTHING.
After it's painted, I'll be putting it back together.
I'm about to move for a few months for work, so when I get back, I hope to have some photos to show!
PS- Get yourself a good aftermarket ECU and start saving for a turbo for that TS.
On stock compression, a Nissan SR20 GT28 will put 10-12 psi through a good air to air intercooler on that thing and you won't know what to do with yourself!
Well, things have been progressing, just slowly. I have managed to source a replacement for my Frankenstein like upper radiator hose. The lower radiator hose from a Jeep Cherokee 1994 (Gates 05-0905) fits very well. I lopped a little off both ends but otherwise it just slips on. It even comes with a metal coil through the centre to protect against kinks. This is designed for anyone who fits a standard TS engine into a GTV with the standard radiator.
Quote from: julianB on April 11, 2012, 08:49:09 PM
PS- Get yourself a good aftermarket ECU
The factory TS ECU is pretty flexible - unless you're planning something wild you shouldn't need to go aftermarket...
Hi GTVeloce,
You conversion looks like its coming along quite nicely. I just wanted to give you the heads up regarding the clutch master cylinder. If you use the original 116 pedal box the clutch master cylinder will fowl upon the intake. To prevent this the Alfa 75 pedal box has a modified clutch master mount that angles the cylinder underneath.
If you get stuck anywhere along the way please send me a message and I'll do my best to help out.
Kind regards,
Tristan
Tristan - thanks for the heads up regarding the clutch master cylinder. I discovered that the hard way the first time installed a TS engine into a GTV. Didn't make the same mistake this time... And thanks for the offer of help - I may very well take you up on that offer soon!
Festy - I'm not planning on doing anything to the engine at this stage. I do plan to take it to the track but have put my money and effort into suspension improvements rather than engine. Also, in keeping with the design philosophy for the car, it has to be able to comfortably run A/C on a hot day without any issues at all which is easy while the engine is stock. That said, the internals were rebuilt about 15k ago plus I have cleaned up all the peripherals this time around so the engine should still give about 110-115 hp at the rears which is enough to enjoy.
This thread has me rather intrigued. The philosophy is a good 1, but I'm curious about the approach.
I figured it may be worth adding a few comments, take them or leave them as you will.
Really good road cars and really good track cars have a very rigid chassis. Track cars obviously achieve this with a comprehensively integrated roll cage. The forces and loads are much higher in a dedicated track car (read: slick tyres which require much higher spring rates to get the best from them) and so are the chassis rigidity requirements.
In standard form, the transaxle chassis doesn't have a good reputation for chassis rigidity, especially at the front, which is also the worst performing suspension (can you say 'understeer'?).
The stiffer your front springs, bump valving in your dampers and anti roll bar, the more the chassis will flex. Please be aware that stiffer (thicker) torsion bars will flex the front of the chassis more, regardless of what some may say! If the wheel is less inclined to move up because a big fat torsion bar is stopping it, that vertical force will be transferred into the chassis. The same said for fat anti roll bars.
Spring rates, damper valving and front suspension geometry.
A tyre can only develop its maximum available grip levels when the tread is in perfect, even contact with the road.
The Alfa's front suspension has a very poor camber curve with bump travel!
The 'die hards' will hate this! The Alfa's front suspension is so bad in its basic dimensions that it quickly gets to a point and actually starts to gain positive camber with bump travel! The more you lower the standard geometry suspension, the closer you are to that point when it starts to gain positive camber.
This is a direct result of having the 'suspension virtual swing arm's pivot point' on the wrong side (the outside) of the wheel. Add to this gain in positive camber with bump travel, the positive camber that is gained with body roll and you end up with an outside front tyre (the hardest working tyre) that has a very poor tread contact with the road and so very little grip!
The other byproduct of this poor front suspension geometry is a low roll centre height. The Alfa's front suspension geometry all ready starts with a low roll centre height, but it also causes the roll centre height to go down faster/further than any lowering that is done. This causes a lot of body roll for a given spring (torsion bar)/damper/anti roll bar combination. If you took a standard TB and anti roll bar TA chassis Alfa and lowered it, it now suffers from MORE BODY ROLL!!!
By correcting the geometry of the front suspension you can fix 2 problems at once. By raising the top ball joint or lowering the bottom ball joint, the virtual swing arm's pivot point is moved to the correct side of the wheel, the inside. This gives a much better camber curve with bump travel and also brings the roll centre height up.
So now you have less body roll for your given spring(TB)/damper/anti roll bar combination and for the body roll that does happen, the tyre maintains a much better contact patch with the road. All of this is done without reducing the independence of the (independent) front suspension by using a huge front anti roll bar.
My personal approach to fixing the front geometry was to use Pace Engineering's long shank top ball joints. These cause a noticable amount of bump steer (toe in with bump) and the easiest and most effective fix I found, was to use a much more positive caster angle. About 7* instead of the factory spec 3*. More positive caster pushes the outer tie rod end down and this helps to reduce the bump steer. It also gives more negative camber with turn in, better self centering of the steering and better directional stability. The downside is more steering weight.
The TA Alfa's are still too softly sprung. It's not as much of an issue with the lighter 4 cylinder cars, but they can definitely benefit from more front spring rate. I haven't had the need to research front springs for the 4 cylinder cars (I have a V6 75), but I would seriously look at the wheel rates that 27.3mm torsion bars provide (191lb/in wheel rate).
Dampers (shock absorbers).
Well designed and well valved dampers will give good initial bump travel (low speed) damping but then gain no more damping force with with any further increase in damper speed (bigger bumps). This will allow the car to feel agile in initial changes in direction (turn in = low speed valving), but also negotiate bumps in the road surface(high speed valving) with minimal effect on the chassis.
This allows the car to negotiate bumps with the tyre firmly stuck to the road and still feel agile, responsive and well planted.
The only dampers that can achieve this kind of result are digressive valved dampers.
A basic linear damper is a force versus (damper)velocity device.
The faster you move it, the more it resists that movement!
The faster you move the damper, the greater the pressure build up inside the damper as more of the damper's oil is trying to flow through the valve(s) in less time.
Digressive valve dampers use internal pressure relief valves to prevent the damper's internal pressure from building up too high and causing an increase in damper force, as the damper's speed increases.
The obvious name to drop, for anyone who has done any sort of research, is Bilstien!
Koni Yellow are a linear valve damper and have too little initial(low speed) bump valving to help the car feel agile during turn in, but gain too much bump force when the wheel negotiates an actual bump. Add higher spring rates and the linear valve damper characteristics are exacerbated.
Koni Yellow's are NOT adjustable for bump valving n standard form. They can be revalved, but will still be a linear valved damper.
By doing things like increasing the chassis torsional rigidity, correcting the front suspension geometry, adding a reasonable amount of spring rate (especially to the front) and matching this with well specified, digressive valved dampers, you should be able to achieve an excellent performing road car car that can negotiate bumpy road surfaces with both agility and 'sure footedness' and still hold its own quite well on a track.
Your other option is to turn it into a crashy, banging POS that hates anything but low amplitude bumps and uses silly amount (for a road car) of negative camber to try and get some respectable levels of grip from the front tyres.
Or you could have a chassis stressing/flexing thing that cranks massive spring rates, huge anti roll bar rates, but with some decent designed dampers, to try and stop it from hammering the poor ol' thing to death, again to try and get some decent levels of grip and handling characteristics............
Thanks Duk. That was quite comprehensive! I am not a whiz at all the principals at play but thanks to brother (who is the engineering whiz) I have a workable understanding and agree mostly with your comments. To try and accomplish my goals I have spent time and effort into the suspension as best I can and I have tried to rectify as many of the handing problems you mention. Therefore;
- I have no welding gear nor experience so have held off doing any chassis improvements but I do have a few plans for the future. After having driven my brothers Porsche you really do appreciate the extra chassis stiffness! My plans include a custom made internally mounted roll bar that is going to be mounted underneath my sound system. Basically it will look just like a standard half cage only not as high. Obviously it won't be as useful and it won't provide roll-over protection but it should provide some extra rigidity as well as provide a mounting location for my sound system rather than having it effectively just sitting in place. The sound system was mounted in this location for a number of reasons but not least of which is keeping the weight low and centered.
- I am also going to experiment with some bars a la the 75 that bolt along the car between the TA and just behind the TB. I'm not as confident as to how effective this will be especially as in my car the TB's are not directly mounted to the chassis but into a cross bar. Still, it's a fairly easy mod to try.
- I would love engine bay chassis stiffening as you have done in your 75 but that requires skill beyond me.
As to the actual layout of the suspension, I have tried actually used a number of the things you mention, namely;
- I have used Pace's long shank upper ball joints
- I will be experimenting with caster angle once the car is drivable again
- I have upgraded to 28mm TB's (again Pace) to improve the suspension stiffness
- I am using Bilstein's all round and have found them to be excellent in the past
- I am going to be experimenting with Camber once it is driving again but previously I had 3 deg and surprisingly found it very good. I even had consistent tyre wear but I'm not sure if that was a combination of driving style and/or original TB's. Most likely the new set-up will employ somewhere between 1-2 deg.
- I have stiffer rear springs but not outrageous levels of stiffness.
I would love to improve the rear angles via a bent de dion but I couldn't justify the expense at this stage. I also have changed all suspension rubbers using a mixture of rubber and PU. Basically if I think PU will provide too much harshness I have opted for rubber e.g. the upper A arms to body have remained rubber but A/R bars and Watts linkage is now all PU. I am going to experiment with a mixture of rubber and PU for the caster arms to see if I can get a good compromise between losing steering angles and crashiness.
I have experienced both gamuts of Alfa suspension, from the sweet handling to the, as you say, crashy POS and hope that my mods will be towards the latter. Time will tell.
On a different but related note: I experimented with tightening the Koni reds in the rear of my mostly stock 75 and it feels disastrous! I will be turning them back down first chance I get. Tightening the Koni yellows in the front and it made an improvement but they still don't feel as good as the Bilsteins.
QuoteI have experienced both gamuts of Alfa suspension, from the sweet handling to the, as you say, crashy POS and hope that my mods will be towards the latter.
Ahem, make that the former...
GTVeloce, it reads like you have a very good handle on making a very good road car handle even better.
Indeed, the set up you plan to use for your GTV sounds like a very, very capable 1!
If you were able to find a way to strengthen the chassis at the front of your Alfa, I do genuinely believe that it will reap rewards for you.
I really do believe that adding a series of small improvements in many areas of the car will make it better on the whole. So rather than expecting 1, or even 2 or 3 or 4 changes, a series of relatively small changes will achieve a very large improvements that could be considered more inline with what a car manufacturer would do rather than what some clown in his shed my throw together.
Keen to read more about your work.
Not trying to wade into someone elses thread here. But followed this with interest. But I have the opposite issue in that I have raised the front of my GTV6 to use for gravel rally. As such my lower control arm is sitting at or just above horizontal, and i am considering raising it another 20mm after the last rally experience. (Did anyone say alloy sump) Fortunately it has a good sump guard that took on the rocks (bolders) and won.
I intend to take all this knowledge and spend some quality time lying under the front end this weekend to understand about it. The car has a welded in roll cage, all the way to the front towers and is running 28mm TB's. But I am wondering if the long shank ball joints would benefit me in the same way as a lowered car. Geometery being what it is I am thinking maybe it would help in keeping the camber at the front near optimum through the suspenison travel? That would help with it get some better bite and better turn in. Then I can go sort my other issue in that the back end wants to step out especially when the road goes off camber.
I have a standard 75 TS that I think has been lowered slightly at the front and I am also going to raise that to try and improve the ride quality as well improve ground clearance. This car is going to see some pretty rough roads soon! So, please let me know how you go with your efforts.
Also, I came across this table a while ago which is a good resource for seeing the different ways to fine tune your suspension to correct any imbalance.
For More Understeer For More Oversteer
Front Tire Pressure Lower Higher
Rear Tire Pressure Higher Lower
Front Tire Section Smaller Larger
Rear Tire Section Larger Smaller
Front Wheel Camber More Positive More Negative
Rear Wheel Camber More Negative More Positive
Front Springs Stiffer Softer
Rear Springs Softer Stiffer
Front Anti-Roll Bar Thicker Thinner
Rear Anti-Roll Bar Thinner Thicker
Front Roll Center Higher Lower
Rear Roll Center Lower Higher
Weight Distribution More Forward More Rearward
A quick update - nearly all the mechanical work has been done now and I have started work on the interior. First job is to remove all the old, degraded floor insulation and replace with dynapad. I think the pic says a lot about how much work is left...
QuoteFirst job is to remove all the old, degraded floor insulation and replace with dynapad
Great stuff Julian,
Thats a job thats been on my "to do " list for about 3 years. Would you like to comment of how hard is was to get the old material out , what it weighed. Where abouts are you sourcing the dynapad.
Cheers
Gully
Thanks Gully. So far getting the old material out has been fairly easy. However, I still have to get the last bits out - the bits that are stuck to the floor. I'm hoping 15-20 minutes with a scraper should have it all out. I haven't weighed it but it isn't ridiculously heavy. Not like the doors... The dynapad is possibly a smidgeon heavier but then that maybe just because the old stuff came out in bits while the dynapad is still one big sheet. I am really happy I'm doing this because it wasn't till I started to pull it out that I realised how far gone it was. It smells, is dusty and can't have been providing much heat or noise insulation. Given my design brief I think this is one of the most important stages. I have also begun putting dynaliner on the doors, sills (which are bare normally!), behind the dash and between the rear weather seals and skins.
As to sourcing the stuff, quite a few websites sell it as does a number of car audio places. I was lucky in that a friend of mine works in a car audio store in WA and ordered some for me at cost price which I collected from the supplier here in Melbourne. The difference in sound once the dynaliner is on is huge so I'm really interested to see how well the dynapad works.
I will give you another update once it's in.
Cheers
Julian
When I did mine, I used a combination of a heat gun and hammer+chisel to get most of it out in big chunks.
I then used a flap disc to clean up the little bits left behind, that was the easiest part of the job.
I'm guessing Julian is talking about the carpet 'underlay' fluffy stuff, rather than the 'tar' stuck to the shell, based on this quote...
Quote from: GTVeloce on June 05, 2012, 12:15:30 PM
It smells, is dusty and can't have been providing much heat or noise insulation. Given my design brief I think this is one of the most important stages. I have also begun putting dynaliner on the doors, sills (which are bare normally!), behind the dash and between the rear weather seals and skins.
The sound-deadener on the shell is another thing entirely, and as festy says, a heat-gun and scraper are needed for that.
Gully. FWIW, it's 20kg in a 90, so maybe 15kg in a coupe? And it takes a full day (well, it did for me anyway).
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on June 05, 2012, 04:39:57 PM
I'm guessing Julian is talking about the carpet 'underlay' fluffy stuff, rather than the 'tar' stuck to the shell, based on this quote...
Quote from: GTVeloce on June 05, 2012, 12:15:30 PM
It smells, is dusty and can't have been providing much heat or noise insulation. Given my design brief I think this is one of the most important stages. I have also begun putting dynaliner on the doors, sills (which are bare normally!), behind the dash and between the rear weather seals and skins.
The sound-deadener on the shell is another thing entirely, and as festy says, a heat-gun and scraper are needed for that.
Gully. FWIW, it's 20kg in a 90, so maybe 15kg in a coupe? And it takes a full day (well, it did for me anyway).
That's what I read as well Sheldon. But comment on the sound deadener - I always remove it cold with a large screwdriver or cold chisel and 2lb hammer. Comes off in big chunks in no time. Maybe all the cars I've done it on are just really, really old......
Yes, I am referring to just the fluffy stuff. I have no need to remove the hard sound deadener. The car is primarily a road car not a track car. That said, some of the hard stuff came with a screw driver quite easily so if I was going to do it I would try it cold with a hammer and chisel first. If I really wanted to do the job well (and had an endless budget), I would remove the sound deadener and replace with dynamat before covering with dynapad. But where do you stop?
When I pulled the insulation up, I discovered the floor well plugs were all rusty on top (but not underneath) which is not surprising. The surrounding area was fine with no sign of rust. Obviously any moisture that gets in will settle in this area so my question is, should I clean these plugs up, paint them and put them back in or just clean them up and put them in. The reason I ask is maybe these were used as a type of sacrificial anode - i.e. a sacrificial piece of metal for the rust to gravitate to rather than the rest of the floor area and painting them may reduce their effectiveness?
I've never seen those plugs rusty before, because my 3 alfettas have all had rubber plugs ???
If you do ever want to remove the hard stuff. Try the dry ice method. Quick and satisfying :)
http://www.alfa-male.com/?s=dynamat
My '79 had hard plastic plugs (translucent/clear), my '76 GT had black plastic, and my '76 sedan wreck had metal.
Make certain you glue in the forward plugs. Water can come off the front tyres at high pressure and dislodge the plugs under the carpet without you knowing. Then the well gets wet and if the plastic backing on the carpet is good, the well can stay wet for a long time without you knowing.
I have to say I'm not a fan of sticking any impervious sound/heatproofing/underfelt down. When moisture gets under it, and it will get in, it will stay wet against the floor metal. While not as robust, breathable felts allow some chance of drying out when moisture does get in.
Anyone have a picture of metal plugs? I've only ever seen rubber or plastic.
Cheers
My 116 GTV had metal plugs. I cleaned them up and reinstalled them.
Tristan
I took some photo's of the rusty plugs - front and back.
QuoteMy 116 GTV had metal plugs.
I couldn't think of anything more dangerous . Un checked metal on metal in an alfetta for 30 + years
Just when you think you have seen every aspect of alfettas, that floor plug with the rubber plug in it, I pulled an alfetta apart this year and seen this same plug and thought a strange idea by someone, and now it seems done factory.
Just seems so, well, dumb! I mean putting metal plugs in a floor under carpet in a place where moisture is always going to collect....
There was a reason for this design so i have been told. It was there for running wiring under the car if required.
We have politicians that need to justify their positions, Italians have engineers
Hi Julian/gents,
My plugs were a little rough, but mostly good. Stripped them to bare, had them re primed and are now back in.
just a thought re: sound deadening- I took about 13kg of the bitumen off the floor.
The dry ice is meant to be really good- it's meant to break off in large sheets. I did it with a hammer and blunt chisel/fat headed screwdriver- none of the floor priming was touched, and it took myself and two mates about 3 hours- boot and all.
You've said you don't want to go down this path, but I'm going to point you in the direction of www.lizardskin.com -
It cost me about $600 for heat and sound insulation material and the special paint gun required to paint it.
The panel beaters I'm using were (rightly so) sceptical about the stuff, so they painted it on half a scrap sheet of metal.
When heated with a paint stripping gun, the unpainted metal is so hot that you can barely touch it. However, the half with lizardskin painted on it is cool enough that you can rest your entire hand on it (while heat is still being applied from the underside).
Mine was dusted with a light coat of red (for the girls- they love a bit of colour ;D )
It's credit card thick- it would weigh nothing.
Keep the thread coming mate- I won't hijack anymore!
Hi Julian
The pics are great! And this lizardskin stuff sounds very interesting. It's a shame as I have already bought (and mostly installed) Dynamat, Dynaliner and Dynapad.
I like the bonnet on your car - GTV6 superleggera! Could be fun putting a seat in the car, some goggles and taking the car for a fang! It would be extremely light.
Seriously, what is the plan for the bonnet? Do you have a cover, or are you going down the suck-in-small-furry-animals (scoop) path? :)
My car was orginally a 2.0- that's the old bonnet- I drove it around with a carbon fibre skinned v6 bonnet with pins for about 5 years. I've cut the hole in the old bonnet to clear the plenum, having a fibreglass moulding of the Zender hump grafted on and cutting the vents out (my engine is fairly worked and creates a bit of heat)- sometime next year, I'll be doing a six throttle conversion, so it will breathe through there as well. I'll start my own topic shortly!
Keep them coming Jules!
I was wondering how long it would take you get here.. :D
Nice going guys.
Too funny, Mike :) I've been in the gtv6.com vortex for too long!
Finally an update! Due to a number of reasons not much has happened over the past couple of months but I can finally say things are progressing again.
Firstly, I have almost finished the engine bay. The only thing left to do is to tidy up the wiring on the right hand fender, then pour a little oil on the valve gear before starting.
I have also finished placing dynamat in the interior and have started with the dynapad to replace the original underlay. A picture tells a thousand words, so...
As you can see from the interior shot, still a long way to go.
Have begun putting some of the interior trim back in and have put in the dynapad. It wasn't too hard except trying to go over the tunnel, especially at the back under where the rear seats go. Next up is the carpet and sub box. Then I need to start making sense of the spaghetti that is where the dash needs to go. Part of the problem is I have a new column switch gear which needs to be wired in so plenty of time with the wiring diagrams. I will be fluent in italian colours by the end! As well as colourful language...
Also, does anybody have an interior door handle (RHS)? Mine has broken where it attaches to the rod to the mechanism. I suspect any of the later GTV(6) ones should fit, not sure about early cars.
Thanks
Julian
Another small update I'm afraid. Still working on the interior and have managed to temporarily finish the doors. I say temporarily as I intend to recover the door skins in leather once I know what the seat colour is going to be.
The first pic is the protective plastic in place. I have covered it with dynaliner to help absorb noise and heat into the cabin. This is the thinnest dynaliner designed specifically for this job (1/8in thick from memory).
The second pic is the door skin in place. Excuse the quality - the sun was just in the wrong position. Also, the front speakers are still coming (5in components) hence the hole however, the wiring is all in place as is the relays for the power windows.
Next week I will get to put the front suspension back together, hopefully!
Great looking doorskins.. are they new? If so, who did them?
They're completely original! I am looking to get them re-covered (in leather) but I might find another set of faded ones first so as to keep these as is.
Finally a few updates. Quite a lot has been done over the past few weeks, the main thing being the front suspension rebuild. New ball joints all round including PACE long shank upper ball joint as well as 28mm bars. Had the usual fun trying to get it all back together properly but managed to just as I was running out f time. The good news is ride height is dead level (<1mm) on both sides, the bad news I discovered once I got the wheels back on etc is the ride height is way off. Probably would have been fine with the original TB's given the amount flex but with the 28's I am a good 50mm too high. Sigh! Another job to do later.
I replaced the sock filter that's on the end of the in-tank fuel pump. I couldn't find the correct one but the one from an American SPICA injected car fits perfectly. Much happier now that's done as I didn't like not having something there (see the pic for the condition of the old one).
I have also almost finished the wiring modifications which has been a major undertaking. However I have a couple of questions if anyone can help.
1) The hazard switch has one too many wires going to it. From the wiring diagram I think the spare might be a Red/Black wire that appears to loop back on itself (see pic - sorry for the quality). It's a short loop so I can't see where else it might go but the wiring diagram only mentions one Red/Black wire.
2) The central locking kit has a cable to attach to the direction indicators. However, I can't work out where to attach this so that both sides light up and that bypasses the switch. Any thoughts where to attach this? Maybe the hazard switch again?!?
3) The new switchgear (indicators, wipers and lights) has a cable that I have been able to ascertain is only for flashing high beam (pulling back on the lights lever). However, the wiring diagrams don't appear to show a cable for this operation so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do. How does it normally work? Does the switch just normally operate the standard high beam connection?
Thanks in advance.
Julian
Quote3) The new switchgear (indicators, wipers and lights) has a cable that I have been able to ascertain is only for flashing high beam (pulling back on the lights lever). However, the wiring diagrams don't appear to show a cable for this operation so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do. How does it normally work? Does the switch just normally operate the standard high beam connection?
The difference between normal high beam and "flash" high beam is that the high beams won't normally come on without the lights switched on, but the flash operation switches them on independent of the parker/light circuits - so the additional wire may be a power feed (or earth, I can't remember if they're high or low switched in the alfettas...)
Hi, the intank fuel pump, is this a mod or did it come standard on the GTV6's??
If the answer is "it's standard on the GTV6" then I ask, will a GTV6 fuel tank fit in a 4cyl car? I have a custom fuel system for my injected 4cyl and it's currently all mounted in the boot.. I want my boot back and that is certainly a way to reclaim some space.. injector pump and surge tank is planned for remounting on underside of boot floor above the watts link if i can move the pickup pump from there...
The intank pump I have installed came out of a 75 TS. It fits exactly where the old fuel gauge sender was. I then installed the TS fuel gauge sender that mounts from on top of the tank sop as to still have a working gauge.
I'm not sure if the GTV6's had an intank pump but I know their tanks were mounted in the boot and therefore took up some boot space compared to the GTV's.
Well it has been quite some time since my last post but, she drives!!! After a bit of fiddling around I have managed to start driving her again, almost exactly two years since I started the project.
So far I am very happy with the suspension set-up. It was one of my main concerns - to have suitable handling characteristics without compromising comfort too much. I will admit the ride quality is diminished slightly (only noticeable on the worst Melbourne roads) but the extra grip and speed through corners far outweighs this. I still have some tuning to do (messing around with different a/r bars and tyre pressures) plus I am still running old Yoko C drives at this stage so it can still get better.
Quite a bit of work went into the electrics and this has paid off. No issues with insufficient power (red battery light...) and head lights are modern car bright (via four relays and beefy wiring). I stole plenty of ideas from shiny car (thanks for inspiration!) albeit my finished product is much more utilitarian as my car is no show car but an everyday driver. Also, the new column switches are brilliant! Makes using the car a dream. Still have a couple of things to fix. The drivers window motor died (have one I bought from Jaycar that I want to try and fit) plus a faint red battery light which I can't work out. Anybody know what could cause this? The only thing that should be attached is the brake fluid level indicator which is working fine (I can press the button and the light come on brightly). Disconnecting this makes no difference so no sure what else it could be. I don't believe the car had brake pad indicators so a little confused.
However, the biggest issue at the moment is the engine. It keeps wanting to stall. It starts fine and idles away. It struggles a little when cold but once a little warm the engine is fantastic! Really quick and responsive. But, as it gets up to temperature, it keeps wanting to stall when returning to idle. If it gets to idle it is fine, it will hold it without a problem. I have experimented with the fuel quality plug and that doesn't seem to make a difference long term. Basically the engine is stock except for the exhaust which is bigger than standard after the headers, very free flowing (loud!) and no cat but it does have an O2 sensor. Also, at the moment it is running a pod filter. I was very careful and have re=checked there are no air leaks (lots of new rubbers) so a bit unsure where to next. Any thoughts?
I have to take more photos but here is one to get going with.
Quote from: GTVeloce on April 01, 2013, 10:32:36 AM
However, the biggest issue at the moment is the engine. It keeps wanting to stall. It starts fine and idles away. It struggles a little when cold but once a little warm the engine is fantastic! Really quick and responsive. But, as it gets up to temperature, it keeps wanting to stall when returning to idle. If it gets to idle it is fine, it will hold it without a problem. I have experimented with the fuel quality plug and that doesn't seem to make a difference long term. Basically the engine is stock except for the exhaust which is bigger than standard after the headers, very free flowing (loud!) and no cat but it does have an O2 sensor. Also, at the moment it is running a pod filter. I was very careful and have re=checked there are no air leaks (lots of new rubbers) so a bit unsure where to next. Any thoughts?
I have to take more photos but here is one to get going with.
Ideally you'd do a fault code check to see if the ECU is logging any faults.
Definitely check the throttle position switch and make sure it is closing the idle contact when the throttle is closed.
Definitely check the coolant temperature sensor and its wiring.
My understanding of the Motronic is that it uses ignition timing to control idle speed, but it might be worth while to make sure the auxiliary air passages are clean and that the auxiliary air valve works properly work properly.
Last but not least, try and adjust the idle stop or air bypass valve (I don't know how the TS TB is designed) so that the engine idles a bit higher. The ECU should still try and get the idle speed down if the throttle switch is closed.
If you haven't downloaded them already, http://david.alfa-romeo.eu/alfa/75/ is the place that you can still get the 75 Manual from.
Well, it has been a little while since I posted on this thread but I've been away so nothing happened for six months.
The car was running ok except for a few little problems, all of which have been fixed with one solution! I always wanted to install the original charcoal cannister and solenoid as the TS was designed to have. However, I couldn't find either. Rummaging around Milano's the other day looking for one I found a later model one (156 I think) that had the two parts mounted together. Closer inspection showed the same electrical connections and entry/exit ports so I thought I would try it. As an added bonus this one weighs a fraction of the 75 one so I'm guessing this one isn't filled with charcoal a la the 75. Anyone know what is in it? Certainly worth a look at swapping to one of these if you are considering moving it because of the weight at the nose of the car.
Anyway, I pulled the cover from in front of the drivers side wheel, removed the horn and mounted it up there behind the headlights using a bracket I made and fixing it to the horn mount.
Hallelujah! It has fixed the stalling issue; improved initial take off; leaned out the mixture (it was way too rich before); it idles smooth now (girlfriend recently referred to being in a milkshake...); most of the nasty fume smell I was getting with window down is gone and I'm being better for the environment :) Oh, and as an added benefit it has improved gear changes. I know that seems odd but I have certainly noticed an improvement and the same thing would happen with the 75. If the engine wasn't quite right it was always harder to change gears.
Sounds like your ECU might have been running in Limp Home mode because of the 'failed' purge solenoid.