Some time ago I promised myself that I'd rebuild both the front and rear suspension on my 1750GTV.
Apart from new shock absorbers some years ago, as far as I know neither the front nor rear suspension has had any major work done since the car was new and whilst I thought it drove OK, I recently drove another car with a restored standard suspension and the contrast was dramatic. Over the last month I've completed rebuilding the rear suspension which was quite easy. The difference in handling with just a rebuilt rear suspension was very noticeable.
Now I'm tackling the front.
So far I've stripped both sides to the hubs and am waiting on an 'all-thread' spring remover so I can lower the pans without having the springs fly out from under the car and rip my head off ....
I've photographed everything as well as measuring and tagging the important bits and have ordered new bushes, bearings, tie-rods, idler kit and a couple of second hand lower suspension arms as mine have had grease nipples drilled into them many years ago.
I'm still thinking about new shock absorbers and will probably go with Koni Yellows on the front and Reds on the rear as the car is only ever used on the road.
I've attached some photos.
Chris
It will transform the car - great project !
For Spring peace of mind - I hook a chain around spring and link it with a d-shackle, not tightly to stop it extending - just to contain it if it does make a run for it :)
I was talking to a nice bloke out at Milano's not long ago, who's name escapes me (was another customer there at the time) but he mentioned using some bearings between the double nuts on the end of the all-thread and the pan - you had to use a couple of different size washers so the outside of the bearing race was hard against the pan / arm, and the inside was tight against the double-nuts... I haven't done it myself yet - but sounded like a nifty idea to make it a little easier / reduce the load on the all-thread a bit. He said it stops the all-thread and nuts chewing out as quickly.
That and an air ratchet :) - makes it a doddle, unless of course you want to work on the guns when you do it :)
You're probably all over that stuff already - but just thought I'd throw it out there :)
Cheers,
Thanks Scott.
The chain/D-shackle sounds like a good idea.
I'll post more photos as I go along.
I realize that it's not the most thrilling thread and probably has been covered in depth on other forums, but someone might be interested.
Chris
I think it's great as a lot of these old cars are more than likley still driving around on their original bushes and setups.
Not that I have seen many 105's on freeway's but yeah great write up and I am sure a lot of budding owners would like to give it a try if they get shown how and it's not too difficult or need special tools.
It's not difficult at all - or not so far :)
This afternoon I removed the passenger side spring by sequentially lowering the pan using three long headless (all-thread) bolts with double nuts on the top and an appropriately sized spacer on the bottom so I could get easy access to the bottom nut. I'm told you can use two, but I thought three was safer. You just go around loosening each bottom nut a few threads at a time. The front springs are under considerable tension being normally compressed to about half their natural length so the car needs to be jacked up a fair way. This method is very easy, very safe and, as they say, when the time comes, installation is the reverse of removal. Both rubber seats for the spring were in very bad shape and the pan was full of 40 years worth of dirt and grease though I'm sure it will all clean up very nicely. Couldn't see any spacers on this side.
The lower control arm bushes were completely knackered with lots of movement - no rubber left at all and the only reason the suspension felt 'tight' was because of the spring tension. The upper control arm bush also had a lot of play in it. To remove the upper control arm on this side (intake side) I'll have to remove the airbox - the one on the exhaust side should be a lot simpler.
So far so good.
Chris
Could I just add my $0.02 worth - this is a most useful post, very informative and not boring at all. I'll follow it with interest as I'm contemplating the same job here.
Chris, where did you source the new parts for the project? Here (i.e. Oz) or through one of the UK suppliers?
David Grainger
Thanks David.
Most of the parts came from the major UK Alfa suppliers. Their websites are very helpful and unfortunately years ahead of the local Oz suppliers. I'm up for new shockies sometime and will buy these locally.
I've spent the weekend stripping the rest of the suspension and only have one recalcitrant bolt left - the inner bolt on the RHS upper suspension arm. It's been sprayed liberally with WD40 and I'll attack it again one evening this week.
I've posted some photos of the parts that I've removed. The LHS pan is badly rusted with a couple of extra holes so I'll replace it with a new one and the steering track rod (drag link) has a bend in it so it's up for renewal as well. All the other parts have been degreased, wire brushed clean and coated with an antirust paint. They will eventually get a top coat of black paint.
Next big job is cleaning, rustproofing and painting the wheelwells prior to reassembly.
So far it has been an easy job (except for that bolt) - the pan lowering spring removal tool is a godsend. Most of the major bushes had no rubber left at all with easy movement in every plane. Similarly the ball joints. I guess if this suspension can be likened to a set of human joints, then my car had a severe case of arthritis, the only difference is that this one is completely curable.
I'll keep posting photos as I go with hopefully a few more of the reassembly steps as I put it all back together. I probably should have done this years ago, but as the car doesn't get driven much and felt OK when I did drive it, the rebuild kept slipping to the backburner. What precipitated my action was driving a mates car with a rebuilt standard suspension - the difference was quite obvious. I'd be interested to hear from others how often the suspensions in these cars should be rebuilt - 41 years is obviously a bit too long :)
Regards,
Chris
Hey Chris, just to confirm what you are going through, believe me it is most definitely worth doing. In fact it was the first real major expense I spent on buying my '69 1750 GTV. I went with both Koni yellows front and rear. I had the same setup on my 2l Berlina before hand and have the same for my '69 Fiat AC 124 sport.
But yes rebuilding the suspension makes a huge difference in handling and overall feel of security on the road. Oh that and some decent tyres ;D. Enjoy the project.
As far as shockies go, I was going to fit Koni yellows on the front and reds on the back.
Because of the live rear axle, I'm told that these cars had deliberately long travel, soft rear suspensions in an attempt to at least keep one rear wheel on the road at all times. As the car will only ever be used for lightweight road work, I'm keen to keep to the original design philosophy.
What do you think?
Chris
Quote from: 1750GTV on October 17, 2011, 10:10:55 PM
I was going to fit Koni yellows on the front and reds on the back.
That's what I have now, after more than a decade of reds all round. My yellows are centered, and the reds tight. I can't say it's definitely better than it was, as I have different rubber than ever before, but I'm certainly getting heaps of grip. Like you, I spend minimal time on a track, but I corner as if I was :)
Hi chris, i'm tipping you'll get a massive benefit from doing all this work, a couple of things you might want to consider to make the most of your efforts.
- Don't neglect the condition of the steering box at a minimum ensure you have the correct shim stack for the preload, this can be done with the box in the car
- follow the workshop instructions concerning setting the toe, as incorrect steering link lengths will change the ackerman curve and effect the handling
- The lower control arm inboard bushes are under incredibly high loads due to the spring motion ratio, so make sure you get all that right
- The soft rear setup is more a function of the rear roll centre height rather than having something to do with the live rear end, be careful with going to stiff in either spring rate or dampers at the rear, or the car will be even more diabolical in the wet
Good luck
Quote from: Colin Byrne on October 18, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
Hi chris, i'm tipping you'll get a massive benefit from doing all this work
I'm certainly hoping so.
Quote from: Colin Byrne on October 18, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
- follow the workshop instructions concerning setting the toe, as incorrect steering link lengths will change the ackerman curve and effect the handling
I've bought new track rods as well as tie rods and will set up the steering assembly as close to it was when I pulled it out of the car. Once back on the road, I'll get a professional wheel alignment done.
Quote from: Colin Byrne on October 18, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
- The lower control arm inboard bushes are under incredibly high loads due to the spring motion ratio, so make sure you get all that right
They will be tightened to a torque of 60-65 ftlb under load. I believe this is the correct figure.
Quote from: Colin Byrne on October 18, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
- The soft rear setup is more a function of the rear roll centre height rather than having something to do with the live rear end, be careful with going to stiff in either spring rate or dampers at the rear, or the car will be even more diabolical in the wet
The rear was rebuilt with standard bushes and springs. The only nonstandard part was a new high tensile aluminium trunnion with poly conical bushes.
Quote from: Colin Byrne on October 18, 2011, 03:18:17 PM
- Don't neglect the condition of the steering box at a minimum ensure you have the correct shim stack for the preload, this can be done with the box in the car
The steering box was rebuilt and properly set up about 3 years ago. The main problems with it were a leaking bottom seal and a loose castellated nut !
Thanks for the input, I appreciate it. I'll keep you all updated.
Chris
Spent the weekend trying to remove the last suspension component - the upper control arm on the drivers side. The large bolt that secures the inner bush is rusted on to the inner sleeve and I can't budge it despite liberal doses of WD40. I've tried all manner of force and even went to the extent of removing the inner headlight so I could thread a large 'punch' (crowbar) through and onto the nut. No go. The nut is loose but the bolt is jammed. I can rotate it because the rubber is so perished it has come away from the inner and outer sleeves. I guess there has to be one tricky bit.
The one on the LHS came out very easily and every other part of the 41yo suspension has been quite easy to disassemble.
A mate of mine is coming over later in the week - he's a panelbeater and will bring a variety of dollies and a bigger mallet. I refuse to be beaten by a steel bolt :(
I gave up on Sunday before I damaged either myself or the car and started cleaning instead - managed to uncover original paint under all of the grime and grease. When I cleaned the rear wheel wells there was a lot of original paint missing so I rustproofed the metal before painting it with a few coats of hard wearing black paint. I'll do the same on the front.
Chris
I was getting the sound deadener material off the front wheel arches of my car over the weekend in prep for blasting and noted the lack of the material in 30 % of the wheel arch area. Just white paint instead... Makes you wonder why they just rust like mad. :'(
"Spent the weekend trying to remove the last suspension component - the upper control arm on the drivers side. The large bolt that secures the inner bush is rusted on to the inner sleeve and I can't budge it despite liberal doses of WD40."
Chris - I feel the pain - I've had some success in freeing off frozen/rusted components by using a 50:50 mixture of acetone (from the local pharmacy, about $5 a bottle) and auto transmission fluid. The mixture seems to creep in to the slightest gap. I learned about it while restoring old (English) motorbikes and had lots of opportunity to attest to its effectiveness.
BTW, I now have a box of ball joints and tie rod ends from Classic Alfa in the UK and when I can summon up the courage I'll start doing the suspension rebuild on my Spider, having been inspired by you. I hope I won't have the same issue with the u/control arm ...
Cheers
David G.
Thanks for the sentiment, David.
In general I'm chugging along slowly - the car is a garage queen, so I'm in no hurry and want to get the job done properly. I took 4 weekends to rebuild the rear suspension, but in that case everything came apart very easily.
I've just about finished cleaning in and around the wheel wells and will start painting next weekend. I've uncovered plenty of bare metal, but no rust and have covered myself in dirt and grease to the point where my wife nearly refused me entry into the house. My kids think it's a great joke.
The dreaded bolt is still in situ and I'm going to give one last shot tomorrow night when my mate comes over with the thermonuclear gear ... If I can't shift it, I'll just have to cut it in half.
I tried your acetone:oil mixture to no avail - I guess because the bolt sits horizontally, it's difficult to soak it in any sort of penetrating liquid.
I've attached a photo of my cleaned and partially assembled front suspension. I've still got to paint a couple of parts.
Post some photos of your Spider rebuild when you do it. It's great fun - you'll have a hoot.
Chris
Very very nice 8)
Finally got the upper control arm off the car without damaging the chassis - a reciprocating saw with a long blade cut through it like butter. When I cut the old bush open, the inner sleeve was rusted tightly on to the bolt. A phone call to the nice guys at Milano Spares and a couple of good, second hand bolts are on the way north.
I've spend the last few evenings doing the final clean and started to paint Friday night, with the second coats going on this morning. Some parts of the wheel well had not seen much undercoat or paint, ever - little wonder these cars rust a bit.
One of the tricky bits was carefully removing the steering box bolts so I could paint the area without dropping the shims between it and the body of the car. When I rebuilt the box a couple of years ago, I had the inlet manifold off the car and the dash out of the car so I had a lot more room. This time I just slipped a couple of short bolts in from the engine bay to hold the shims when I removed the long bolts and the steering limiter on that side.
Tomorrow I hope to get most of the suspension on the car. I've ordered new shockies from Pace Engineering - Koni Yellows front and back. Apparently Koni Reds are virtually unobtainable, so I'll fit Yellows to the rear and set them to the softest setting.
Apart from the saga with the bolt, this has all gone very easily. I was expecting some problems as the suspension has not been touched in 40-odd years but have been pleasantly surprised. The rear rebuild was just as easy. I guess you get lucky now and again :)
I've posted a couple of pictures of the bolt (contain your excitement, if you can ...) and will post some more of the reassembly tomorrow evening.
Chris
Today I installed the major suspension components. New bushes, bump stops, ball joints and even new grommets for the brake lines. I torqued up everything except the wishbone spherical bushes and the upper control arm bolt. I'll do them when there is weight through the suspension. The springs went in without any trouble using the 'all thread' technique. I've still got a bit to do - caster arms, rotors, wheel bearings, brake calipers, anti-roll bar, steering assembly etc. but the heavy stuff is all done.
As well as the photos of the reassembly, I've also attached a pdf of the front suspension with the relevant torque settings.
Chris
That looks fantastic! Great work
How many hours effort do you think the whole suspension rebuild cleanup took ?
Pancho,
It's kinda hard to know as I was interrupted by the bolt saga.
By the time I stripped the suspension, steering and the front and rear inner mudguards, I gave the wheel wells an initial clean with loads of degreaser to remove most of the messy stuff. Next I attacked the areas with a wire brush mounted on my drill as well as a hand held wire brush. More degreaser followed, particularly in and around the cross member, gearbox and in the engine bay. Where the paint or undercoat was eventually clean I left it, though I did get down to bare metal in many places on both sides. When I was happy it was all clean, I masked it off, primed with a rustproofing undercoat and then applied by brush two coats of a thick, rust resistant matt black top coat paint. I know that these areas were originally body coloured, but for me it was easier to paint it all black.
I guess all up it took about about 60 hours - I'm a slow, methodical worker. Not obsessive/compulsive, just keen to do a good job :)
I did a similar thing to the rear when I rebuilt the suspension a couple of months ago. All up, it's been great fun, if a little messy at times. Now I'm really looking forward to getting out on the road.
Chris
PS: I've been watching your rebuild here and on the alfabb with great interest.
QuoteI did a similar thing to the rear when I rebuilt the suspension a couple of months ago
This has been as great read, thanks . Any idea on the time spent on the rear suspension.
The rear suspension was considerably easier as the rear wheel wells do not have the complex curves that are present at the front of the car, nor the brake components or suspension parts protruding from the body/chassis. The hardest part was balancing the diff on a trolley jack while I lined up the trunnion and the spring loaded trailing arms by myself.
The rear suspension was rebuilt using standard parts except for the trunnion. I ended up buying a light weight aluminium trunnion and used poly conical bushes for the diff end. It was very easy to fit and shim. The only real problem I had was with the rebound straps. I purchased two sets from two different suppliers and no permutation would fit properly so I soaked and cleaned the old ones, sealed them and reinstalled them as they were OK.
For the wheel wells, the cleaning, priming and painting took about 20 hours all up. I also cleaned (degreased) the fuel tank underside, spare wheel well and as far forward as I could get around the prop shaft tunnel and floor. The paint was OK under there, so I left it alone - I think all of the grease and oil has probably protected the underside over the years.
I didn't take many photos, sorry, as it is really quite an easy job. I might take a few when I install the new rear shock absorbers.
Chris
Hey again Chris, did you source the aluminium T bar from here or the UK ? Also what was the weight difference between the two - that's one weight saving upgrade I'll be doing.
Vin Sharp sells these aluminium T bar units (for anyone reading this).
Yeah my project at the moment feels like it's on a 'go slow' arrangement. It's moved a bit further forwards though as Pauls angle grinder has proven I now have to buy some more panels to repair rusty areas....update soon though.
The aluminium T-bar came from the UK and weighs about 4kg less the the standard pig-iron one. Well made and heat tempered - a nice bit of kit.
The lateral support end bushes are also better than the original - easier to fit, easier to replace and supposedly permit smoother vertical movement of the T-bar over uneven ground. Even though my car is a only a road car, I thought that this would be an improvement without sacrificing comfort, particularly when teamed with conical differential bushes. The only minor problem was that the three a side bolts that hold the T-bar are a bit long - this is easily fixed with a thicker washer on each bolt.
I'll see if I can get a photo when I'm next under that end of the car.
Chris
A few more photos that may help anyone else rebuilding their suspension and steering:
Non interchangeable parts are marked according to the side where they go - "S" (sinistra = left) and "D" (destra = right).
The 'scalloped' wishbone goes at the rear so the tie-rod end clears the suspension at that point on each side.
Chris
Nearly done now.
The Konis arrived yesterday and I put the front ones in last night after adjusting them to about half stiffness (360 deg from soft). All I need to do now is attach the antiroll bar, put in some new brake pads (I'll replace the front discs soon), bleed the system and I'm off ;D
I found an interesting website full of useful information at http://www.duettoinfo.com/. If you look at the 'Maintenance and Shop Manuals' page under 'Wheel and Suspension - Front End Geometry - Amendment to Specifications', number 1838-R2 (10/1977) -600 is a pdf giving the required lengths and angles. I'd post it here, but it's 1.8Mb and the maximum size I can post is 1.0Mb. I used it to do the initial steering setup. I'll get a formal adjustment as well as a suspension check soon as some angles I just guessed at (eg: castor angle).
Chris
I found a couple of photos that I took when I rebuilt the rear suspension. They show the light weight aluminium trunnion.
I'll take some more when I change the shockies next weekend.
Chris
As promised, the rear suspension.
The car has been finished for a little while now and will have a wheel alignment next weekend. I've been unable to do much in the last 2 weeks due to work commitments but once the steering geometry is sorted, it'll get driven much more than it has been in the last year or so.
This rebuild is well worth doing and easily within the capability of an amateur mechanic like myself.
Chris
A final note:
It's been a couple of months since I finished all of the suspension work and the result has been remarkable. The car points and turns beautifully, it sits on the road at speed without the 'hunting' it used to have and generally feels stable and safe.
This must be what they were like when they were new. No wonder people lauded them as drivers cars.
Chris