Hi everyone,
Some history- I was building a 33 race car (only because i couldn't find a sud). luckily enough Ive been that busy that I haven't had time to do much.
Which is good because Ive now come across a 79 sprint in pretty good nick, which I picked up on Saturday and will keep as a road going car. Has fairly fresh 1.5L twin carb, flogged out gearbox and bonus rear disc brakes.
Will stick a good gearbox I have with lsd and get out there and do some events.
I have a s3 33 that i would like to transfer the outboard brakes from, does anyone know exactly which bits I need to mix and match from each car to do this.
I'm impatient so Engine and gearbox are already out and waiting.
thanks
I fitted later suspension in the front of my s1 Sud Ti track car and deleted the inboard discs and calipers.
We swapped the whole front over:
- struts
- front cross member
- all four suspension arms
- driveshafts
I think the rear suspension arms are slightly longer, so it pushes the front wheels forward in the arch. Gives a bit more castor and a heavier steering feel, but I don't mind the extra stability. I've been driving it like this for years now, so I'm completely used to it.
There was some debate at the time - not sure if you can fit the rear arms from the Sud combined with the front from the 33 to retain the same castor - I've seen mention of it on the alfaowner forum I think. We chose to change the whole lot over.
I can't remember now what parts came from which car - the cross member and suspension arms came from a late 1.7 sprint I think. The struts, driveshafts, vented discs and calipers came from a 16v 1.7 33.
If you delete the discs, you need spacers on the gearbox end of the driveshafts.
Thanks for the reply Evan.
Where would I get spacers if I needed them or is it something I would have to have made?
Cheers
Meizhak
I think they were stock items for one of the breeds of sprint or 33 with outboard discs. 10mm from memory, but my memory is a bit crap. I got mine from Hugh Harrison at Monza Motors in Melbourne.
Evan, there is a spacer on the sprint between driveshaft and inboard brake disc. they are 23mm thick.
Attached is a photo, are these the ones you used?
Thats a good find, very neat. Just like my daily driver.
I too have fitted the 16V 33 front suspension to this car. I swapped the same main parts like Evan did. Some of the following may be different as I was replacing the engine and gearbox at the time.
The gearbox is from the 16V 33 with 'outboard brake' drive hubs, so when I assembled it, the drive shafts bolted up as they normally do on outboard braked 33's without spacers.
The brakes I use are the outboard solid rotor fitted to s1-2 33's. Mine are ATE type. I use these with a 5mm wheel spacer to continue using the original steel rims, like the ones on your car.
I also spaced the stabiliser bar down 10mm away from the front cross member because it was just touching the bolts that attach the front suspension arms to the front cross member. Not sure why this was required? I bolted the front cross member directly to the front rails of the car, like it was bolted to the 16V 33, unlike modified sprints where I have seen the entire cross member spaced away from the front rails. ?
Quote from: meizhak on August 17, 2011, 04:57:20 PM
Evan, there is a spacer on the sprint between driveshaft and inboard brake disc. they are 23mm thick.
Attached is a photo, are these the ones you used?
Those look familiar, but memory says they weren't that thick. I'd go and climb under the car and check, except it's in lockup storage. I'll see if Bruno remembers when I see him tonight.
Quote from: Frank Musco on August 17, 2011, 11:42:35 PM
I also spaced the stabiliser bar down 10mm away from the front cross member because it was just touching the bolts that attach the front suspension arms to the front cross member. Not sure why this was required? I bolted the front cross member directly to the front rails of the car, like it was bolted to the 16V 33, unlike modified sprints where I have seen the entire cross member spaced away from the front rails. ?
I used the late model front swaybar, which is smaller diameter and has more kinks in it than the early bar. Didn't have any clearance problems. It's now unbolted at one side, as I find better traction on the track without it. I should remove it, but as I'd have to drop the cross member to do so I haven't got a round 'tuit' yet.
My understanding of why modified sprints and suds space the cross member down is to make the angles of the front suspension arms nearer to horizontal. Something about the force from the wheels being applied through those arms not being angled upwards. I'd need an engineer to explain that to me properly! Frank? Colin?
Thanks for the replys,
I have bolted everything up with the spacers above and it seems to be ok. I suppose I wont know till I get it off the hoist onto flat ground. Evan if you could check with Bruno that would be great.
On a bad note, one of the bearings under the spring platform for the steering has come apart. Does anyone know where to get these from?
Can I put series one 33 struts in there to get me going till i can source parts?
Frank, Haven't tried fitting the sway bar yet but have trial fitted my magna/commodore brakes and changed wheel bolts for studs. (pic attached crap quality sorry)
Cheers,
Meizhak
They used to put spacers between the front cross member and body to lower the engine and gearbox, with the added benifit of a lower centre of gravity, this could be easily achieved by putting lowered springs in, when you put spacers between the body and subframe, you need 4 longer front subframe bolts, these are unobtainable as they are specials, unless you go to an engineer and have them make up longer bolts, bloody expensive!, but lowering the subframe straightens the control arms and apparantly cuts out a lot of torque steer, Colin.
Colin, I have often thought about performing the mods to lower the engine and have also come to a blank with the bolts. If you go to a imperial bolt there is plenty available.
I was going to do that then weld a captive nut of the correct size to the chassis rail.
I have fitted s1 33 struts for now until I rebuild the S3 ones, still unsure of the drive shaft spacers but will sought this out once I have finished brake lines and have it on the ground.
Cheers,
Meizhak
I previously sent you the details previously to lower the engine/ gearbox. From memory, I just purchased the longer bolts from a bolt shop in Melbourne (now closed) and don't think they are hard to find.
Colin, Beninca's lowered the engine/ gearbox in my Sud some 16 years ago and was the best mod I have done to the car suspension (should have discussed with you at the 900 night).
All the best.
Paul
I have only recently done and redone this mod a number of times ..
YES you need the spacer if you use and earlier gearbox designed for inboard brakes ... unless you use them.
I used the latter front cross member but this isn't essential ... just gives different a preferable geometry and greater neg camber.
If you use the latter cross member you must use the latter sway bar.
You can use the earlier rear arms .. they do fit but the castor was something stupid ... didn't look cool at all.
I am only using the 14" speedline wheels and they bolt straigh onto the s3 front end.
I did however get my inserts limited in their travel .. need to do that on the back now :( more money
Hi Guys,
Paul, the engine lowering mod is something i definately have on the cards once the car is sorted. I have searched high and low for the bolts in WA but know one has them or reckons they can get them.
Southern75, I am using sud box with 16v susp and outboard brakes. The spacer I have is 23mm thick, does this sound right?
Cheers,
Meizhak
The longer bolts were pre internet, and i searched Melbourne for longer bolts but couldn't find any, but an engineer made some up at great expense, but if you used imperial bolts, you would need to make 4 new captive nuts, they were not on my 33, but a sadly departed Alfasud, the 23mm spacer, would i be right in saying these are used on inboard disc brakes, as some late\early models had the driveshaft bolt to the hub, and others bolted to the disc, and when you purchased rotors you got this spacer to suit whatever setup you had, Colin.
Colin, The sprint is a 79 model and had the drive shafts that bolt to the hub on the gearbox not the disc.
Im fairly certain its right. Just have to replace stuffed tie rod end, set the wheel alignment and make up some new brake lines
Quote from: meizhak on August 20, 2011, 09:34:43 PM
Hi Guys,
Paul, the engine lowering mod is something i definately have on the cards once the car is sorted. I have searched high and low for the bolts in WA but know one has them or reckons they can get them.
Southern75, I am using sud box with 16v susp and outboard brakes. The spacer I have is 23mm thick, does this sound right?
Cheers,
Meizhak
Hi all, have made some engine lowering blocks out of aluminium bar and modified the gearbox mount, I will use some small round bar to space rear of gearbox. Have also found a supplier for the bolts over here in Perth.
I have the car all together and to the naked eye it seems to have alot of neg camber. Any ideas, I will try to get it on a wheel alignment tomorrow.
cheers
When I get the bolts I will bolt it all up and see how it goes.
Oops forgot this,
Meizhak
Your Sprint should be a lot of fun when complete and enjoy the updates. Glad you found the bolts.
Paul
I had to get the longer bolts made up by an engineer about 15 years ago, tried every where in Melbourne - NOTHING, but now metric fasteners are a lot easier to get, and imperial fasteners, not so readily available, about one million years ago with my first car, a VW, metric stuff was still a curiosity, thank christ things have changed for the better, Colin.
Thanks Paul, will keep the updates coming
Colin, I tried everywhere over here about a year ago and basically got laughed at, thats why I was going to change to imperial bolts.
Now after one phone call there seems to an abundance of them.
Still have to do some playing around with suspension arms. I suspect I will need to use the sprint ones to get the camber right.
I have made the gearshift shorter using the shift rod from the sud grafted on to the much simpler shifter from s3 33 and also extended the
steering wheel out using a quick release hub I had lying around from another project.
I have simply done this to make the driving position a bit more comfortable but have kept all original parts if I want to put it back to standard.
Pics to follow next week.
cheers
FWIW (not much)... I grabbed some 156 front suspension bolts a couple of years ago from Milano's. At the time I checked they were the right thread and size, and about 40-50mm longer than the standard Sud crossmember bolts. I think. Haven't got around to actually lowering the engine and crossmember...
A long time ago, we tried to graft the front suspension of a 33 onto a 80 Sprint so we could dump those horrible inboard brakes for some outboard vented discs of a 1.7 33, and we found nothing worked, the control arms were different lengths, even the pickup points seemed different, and after a few goes, we went back to standard Sprint suspension, as it was the guys daily driver, but it can be done, so keep at it, Evan, the front suspension bolts of a 156 sounds like a great idea, they would just go in and thats it, when we had made the front subframe bolts for the Sud, we decided that imperial bolts were a poor fit in the subframe and may lead to it not being correctly located, so we went the way of longer metric bolts, excess thread cut off and a new fine thread machined on the end of the bolt, Colin.
Evan, I've got four spare gearbox mounts that I was intending on modifying plus some spare 40mm square ali bar. If your interested I will let you know when there done. All you will need is a new bush to press in. Have to remove them when welding, plus there all stuffed.
Colin, I need to get it back up on the hoist and have a look at the differences in suspension arm lengths. Worst case I will make some adjustable ones with some fancy arse
internal threaded bar, although I hope this is not the case.
Cheers Guys
There are differences in the control arm lengths, ie early \ late Alfasud, early \ late 33, they all look the same until you lay them side by side, thats after you have put them in the car and the wheel is in a different spot, ie hard up against a mudgaurd, or other nonesence, Colin.
Hi All,
Not much progress until this last week.
Was just going to tidy up this car and drive it until one of my employees reversed our mobile welding truck into it!
The damage did not look that bad but has bent rear panel and the steel spoiler lip below rear hatch. To cut a long story short I have decided to
tidy up the body and repaint with a view to having a road registered club car for sprinting/ motorkana etc.
So Far,
Brakes- fronts fitted, just need to finish brake lines and fit hydraulic handbrake
Suspension- All new bushes to be fitted and then thinking of these http://www.intraxracing.nl/?cat=productdetail&prodid=587&title=33_schokdempers_RSA
About the same price as getting konis and springs fitted in Perth
Engine lowering mod done, people that said they had the bolts actually didn't. had to use course thread bolts and made new inserts for chassis rail.
Tyres and wheels to be sorted, Currently have 15 inch rims off my alfetta with spacers to clear the brakes
Inside stripped out, deadener removed
Cant remember any more, anyway attached are some photos of progress so far
cheers
Meizhak
Some Pictures of the engine lowering blocks and gearbox mounts in place.
So work today included making some new seat rails, picking up some parts and removing all old brake lines and load load sensing valve in rear in preperation for new lines, hydraulic handbrake and bias valve.
Meizhak
Laughed when reading your post as brought back memories re 'had to use course thread bolts and made new inserts for chassis rail' - same experience!
Car should be great when finished and agree with the 33 suspension swap for track work - although will make the Sud feel more like a 33 to drive.
All the best
Paul
The difference between fine threads and course threads is course threads are stronger as the thread is deeper, fine threads have a better wedging action, as the thread angle is less and is less prone to loosening off, thats why i stuffed around getting fine threads for 'my' Sud, if you can, loctite the course threads, and if there is enough thread pokeing through the top of the chassis rail, put a nylock nut or a plain nut, Colin.
Colin, you are totally correct about the thread pitch. Fine thread is def the stronger option.
Once everything is sorted and i am happy I will apply a loctite product called bearing mount to the bolt threads.
this is about a squillion times stronger than thread locker from loctite, I use it all the time on bearings in mining equipment.
its mint till you have to get it out, luckily they make a product to disolve it.
Anyway more updates tomorrow
Paul,
Im hoping to be finished within a couple of months.
Am running standard 1.5 twin carb till i build one of the 16v I have.
Im more concerned about sorting out brakes and suspension and getting to know the car before repowering.
Cheers
Meizhak
Loctite make a lot of products, low, medium, high strength thread lockers, even thread lockers called 'wick in', that is, you can't pull the thread apart to locktite it so you put this 'wick in', and it seeps in, i used to use it on Sud rear view mirrors that used to vibrate out of position, to remove loctite, heat it up with an oxy-acetelene, or paint removing heat gun, heat it up until the loctite starts to smoke, then you have killed it, let it cool and undo your fastener, Colin.
Yeah loctite definatly make some good products.
can somebody confirm for me what type of wing mirrors this model should have on it?
Are they similar to alfetta GTV ones?
Do they screw straight through the door? mine came with some crappy XC ford looking ones on it which screwed into two plastic inserts in the top of the door near the weather strip.
I Am thinking about putting a half cage in as well. Does anyone have any photos of a cage installed in a sprint?
Shack
Have a look on Alfaowner.com in the technical section
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-33-sud-and-sprint/
Heaps of Sprint info on race cars.
Need to be a member to get the pics to view