Hi All - just looking for some advice on a recent problem I have with my 2003 147 GTA. First a brief history of the vehicle.
History: I am the second owner. It is a 2003 147 GTA with 43,000kms on it and in exceptional condition with a full and thorough service history from Rick Damelians, including having the alternator replaced under warranty and the water pump done with the timing belt. Since buying the car in March I've done about 2,000kms and installed the new Q2 diff (can't speak highly enough of it) and a new clutch, as well as having a good service with all my fluids changed etc. The car drives fantastic and apart from a stiff suspension on crap roads (which i expected) I can't fault it
Problem: Unfortunately I have had my first Alfa "hiccup." I was driving down the freeway late one night and I got a "Motor Control System Failure" messge on my dashboard. Everything was working fine at the time. I pulled over and basically the book says it could be a number of things, but that if it was "glowing" and not "flashing" I could continue to drive, but get it to a mechanic ASAP.
Anyway I got it home and upon closer inspection, my temperature gauge on the dashboard now constantly reads zero and the engine fan is constantly running at a beserk speed (sounds like a jet plane). I also noticed that the radiator fluid is below the minimum mark, which I thought was strange that its a been depleted since I've only done a little over 1,000kms since I had it serviced and have no obvious leaking under the engine bay or in the engine bay. The car is not running rough since the issue and does not seem to be using too much fuel, although I haven't driven it much to avoid aggravating anything.
I've done a bit of reading and the only things on the net that I can find are:
- Thermostat is broken, causing the temp gauge to read zero and the fan to come on as a fail safe.
- Catalytic converter (or something emissions related)
- Head Gasket issue (I think it unlikely given it's only done 43,000kms and I have no milky residue near the oil filler cap/exhaust smoke)
- The radiator has an issue (I read these wear quite quickly on the GTA?)
- I've got a separate radiator hose leak somewhere
- The Battery is old and low on power and is causing the ECU to go haywire (my last 147 and 156 both had what I would call - "fragile" ECUs).
Anyway it's booked in to get checked later in the week, but some advice would be great, as I'd like to know if its anything common so I can point the mechanic in the right direction before they get started, or so i know if they try and rip me off - i.e. if it's just the thermostat, it should be quite cheap.
Anyway thanks to anyone that responds with any ideas or quick checks I can do.
This happened to my 04 GTA just over a week ago.
It had been serviced 2 weeks prior so found it difficult to blame a lack of attention.
Situation was I parked it up at the airport on Friday night, came back just over 2 days later. Started fine then as I was putting the ticket in the machine to leave the long term car park the error came up.
Drove home with no water temp registering, parked it up and told the missus to take the 05 to work the next day. I started the 04 the next day and there was no issue and hasn't been one since.
In another thread it was suggested a few of the computer issues can be avoided, if you let the start checks complete, before actually starting the car. I've been trying to be more diligent ... but it is a bad habit to just start it so I can hear it idle. :)
Thanks Brad - I was hoping that mine would go away too and I could just put it down to fragile electronics or something. Unfortunately my problem persists. It's been 3 days and as soon as I turn on to accessories the engine fan runs at full throttle and the warning pops up. The temperature gauge still reads blank, even if I start the car and let it run.
Quote from: 155 lover on June 14, 2011, 03:16:33 PM- Thermostat is broken, causing the temp gauge to read zero and the fan to come on as a fail safe.
Thermostat or coolant temp sensor? I presume the latter. I've never had to locate the sensor, but you should first check it hasn't become unplugged.
Your error is no doubt related to the sensor, and the fan. If you can access the temp sensor, then there's probably a way to check that it's functional, say using a multimeter; you'd want to check a copy of the workshop manual about how to test it. If it's failed, and you're handy, it shouldn't be hard to replace, unless it's in an awkward position. You'll lose a bit of coolant, but work quickly and have some rags to catch it, and you should be right (top up any loss with distilled water). I presume it's in the housing between the water pump and thermostat, which means it's on the driver side at the level of the base of the 'V' of the cylinder banks.
If you're not into DIY, then a trip to your Alfa mechanic is in order. They can hook up the Examiner computer to confirm the MSCF error relates to the sensor or whatever, and go from there.
And if you are in no rush, and want to save money, you can buy the part (if required) yourself, either on ebay or any of the parts suppliers (eg: EB Spares, UK; Arese Spares, Sydney; AlfaWorshop, UK). For example, if it's the sensor: http://www.alfaworkshop.co.uk/parts/GT_Sending_unit.shtml Possibly A$40-50 delivered, and half the cost from a dealer.
Having said this, I think it's uncommon for the sensor to fail. So it may just be a loose/corroded plug.
:)
I've got another error now and I'm pretty concerned. I went to take it to the mechanic today and I have no clutch pedal pressure and it won't go into gear. I've just put a brand new clutch in only 1000 kms ago so I'm at a bit of a loss to explain what's going on unless the installation was screwed up.
Only thing I can think of is the clutch master cylinder, but it seems odd that this would choose to fail now, especially as it's only done 43, 000 kms. Also I would have thought this would have beeen done when the new clutch went in, unless it's external from the clutch?
This is driving me nuts. I know alfas are sensitive, but the cars only done 43, 000 kms. My 79 alfetta with 150, 000kms is more robust than this!
Master/slave cylinders are separate, and not part of a routine clutch replacement.
It does seem odd, because the clutch is not 'electrical' obviously. Hard to tie it together.
I presume - but let's not presume too much! - that the 'pin' that connects the clutch pedal to the master cylinder piston/rod has not broken? This was a recall from years ago, due to a weak clip that holds the pin. If it breaks, then you lose clutch function. Perhaps have a look under the dash at the pedal and mechanism. It's the only thing I can think of that's 'simple' (as opposed to a leak in the system). It's still unrelated to the temperature issue AFAIK.
:)
Thanks. My guess is the clutch slave cylinder, because if I pump the clutch 9 or 10 times, I can get it to go into gear. With regards to the recall on the pin connecting the clutch to the slave cylinder, was that on the 147 GTA too? I can't find any mention of a recall on the associated government product recall website for my model.
Oh well, the car got towed to the mechanics today, so I'll post when I hear back as to what the problems are for others reference. I managed to reverse it out of the garage and turn it arround by furiously pumping the clutch to build pressure and get it into gear.
Either way, I'm massively frustrated and disappointed by the whole affair. With only 43,000kms, a full service history (it's been serviced around 12 times, that's once every 3,500kms to put that in perspective!), and good money spent on upgrades to improve durability and performance with the Q2, I suppose I expected more from the car in terms of reliability.
I know my faults *may* end up being relatively cheap and easy, but I can't help but think that a $60-$70,000 Alfa (when brand new) shouldn't have these crappy faults after 7-8 years (I know that's a fair period of time) but only 43,000kms.
Either way I still love the car and have had experiences with my older Alfas, but it is no surprise that despite their fantastic looks and driveability the new models are struggling in terms of sales if these problems are common (from what I'm reading).
I'll update this post when I know more for the benefit of other 147 GTA owners.
please update, i know its annoying, but it could be something really simple...
i had all sorts of VDC/ABS errors until the earth strap to the engine was reconnected - all issues solved...
clutch is probably just a slave, which with time, is no indictment on the car or make...
tough it out, it's a great car! hope its a cheap and easy fix!
let us know!
joe
Thanks for the support.
Ok - My mechanic has gone through the car and found:
- With regards to the clutch: both the clutch Master and Slave cylinders are worn out. The Master cylinder completely gone and the Slave cylinder apparently just hanging in there, so I'm replacing both.
- With regards to the motor control system failure error, the computer found two fault codes: - 1. Rear brake switch fault and 2. Coolant temperature reading problem. He investigated both, found nothing, reset the fault codes and everything is apparently running fine - temp gauge back on, fan cutting in appropriately etc.
- With regards to my radiator coolant level being low again after 1000kms since flushing and replacing, he can't find any leaks at all, and thinks it's most likely an "air lock" (no idea what that means exactly), but it's probably something I'll have to monitor.
I also asked him to check the alternator and battery as I've read that an old battery can make your ECU go haywire. The alternator is fine (it was replaced under warranty) and the battery is also ok, although it appears slightly dated, so for $150 odd I'll probably just replace it, at least I can rule that out of being the cause if it happens again.
Either way, I'm glad the problems are relatively "minor" given the nasty sound of "motor control system failure" - but seriously what good is having a computer to give you warning lights about engine problems if they daignose problems that don't exist or can't be located, and worse - don't diagnose them when they actually happen (i.e. I got no warning for the clutch master/slave cylinders, purely felt it).
I actually prefer the way my alfetta and spider work - when something breaks, I find out the old fashioned way, when it just doesn't work, as opposed to living in fear of nasty sounding warning lights from a computer that could be terrible and expensive or cheap, annoying and nothing, but still requires a trip to the mechanic to clear the computer.
Geez, sorry to hear about the master/slave cylinders. Odd.
Quote from: 155 lover on June 15, 2011, 03:57:19 PMWith regards to the recall on the pin connecting the clutch to the slave cylinder, was that on the 147 GTA too? I can't find any mention of a recall on the associated government product recall website for my model.
I presume it includes the GTA, but owners should have received a letter at the time, stating the recall, to arrange the fix.
http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/apps/recalls/searches/expand.asp?uniqueID=BE178B3E065C101D802571E6004151E8&freeText=Blank&tx=
Irrelevant to you now, anyway. :)
It could be worse, if it was a JTS, the gearbox would have to come out as they have an internal slave cylinder, i would say yours slave cylinder is located on outside of the gearbox, but did you know that every time you bleed the brakes you should bleed the cluch system as well, as the fluid is hydroscopic, which means it absorbs moisture, and water is a bad lubricant, therefor the rapid wear of your clutch system, and while we are at it, you really should change it every 2 years, or when the moisture content is too high, some service centres have a electronic gizmo that you put its sensor into the master cylinder, and it reads how much moisture is in the fluid, and they really work well, as i have one, they are about $150 new or cheaper second hand, as mine was, so you only fling the brake fluid when you need, also change the power steering fluid every few years, such as when it gets dirty, or goes a 'milky' colour which is aluminium particles, see various internet car servicing sites for details, and some Beemers that i know off have a filter in the power steering reservoir, and to renew the filter, you renew the reservoir!, the one i seen was the same as in Alfa Romeo Milano's, 90's spiders, 16 valve 33's and 164's, but the reservoirs were about $40 on ebay, Colin.
correct col, v6s and selespeed have external slaves.... no biggie.....
Thanks guys. Got the car back - drives great, although the clutch feels different compared to before the clutch slave and master cylinders gave up - it feels smoother, but not as firm as before.
Also, from what I read about the placement of the clutch slave and master cylinders being external and all, as well as some posts in here about it not being a big job, how much could I expect to pay? I've got the bill here and I'm slightly gob-smacked. I won't give it away because I don't want to pre-empt what anyone else would expect.
Ignoring the fact that I could get cheap parts from the UK, how many hours labour and how much would the two parts cost me? I'd be interested to know what people on here would expect considering all the comments I had (even from the mechanic initially) was that it would be an easy job.
i myself was referring to the slave as being not a big deal... MC is harder... its unusual for both to go, and is usually SC over MC...
it's hard to say what the local mech pricing is... the v6 slave is around 30 quid from o/s... typically aus pricing is at least 2-2.5x this... carrying over to master.. 50 quid...
so that's around $160-210 on parts alone... depending on how willing they are to pass on trade discount... but most non-dealers get screwed on oem parts here...
labour... i'm not too sure about the 147 but teh MC can be difficult... sometimes u need to remove some of the pedals to get access, and i think some of the hard line needs to be removed from the engine bay.. maybe 2-4 hrs for MC alone.... but a sympathetic mech may give the SC labour free....
at least $200 in labour alone, to I would say a fixed ceiling for this kind of work being $400, even if difficult...
but I tend to low ball it... compared to what local indy mechs want!
so, i would guess anywhere from $400-$700. U'd be amazing how pricing varies from mech to mech... I wont say what for, and who, but from a DEALER i was charged $400 labour, and they did so, impeccably... cf quote from a well known 'alfa specialist' who wanted.... $900.
true story.
I go to the dealer for big ticket items i wont do myself.
Thanks for that. I suppose my labour seems about right then - 3 hours. More shocked with the parts mark up here. $200 for slave and $200 for master cylinder. I saw them prior for around 50 pounds each in the UK and was tempted to order them, but I didn't think the mark up would be that crazy. In hindsight I definitely should have ordered them online. At current exchange rates and postage would have got both for sub $200AUD total.
yes and no... it sound like u got hit up around $700... i know $200 can be alot but if one of those new parts fails, u are now covered... teh mech will have to swap it FREE.. usually over 12mo period minimum...
if one of the parts u bring in is faulty... good luck... u're on your own, which usually means paying labour twice...
IME shipping in parts is only really worth it when u literally can't afford a big ticket item eg, q2 diff, 800 imported vs $1900 local, and the parts price greatly exceeds labour costs... or of course you're doing the labour yourself...
it's all good bud.
least it's problem solved, and u have an all new clutch circuit now... :)
Yeah - got hit up for $750. Thought it was a bit steep and closer to $500 fairer, but from the information I've got from ringing around, it sounds like its around what others are charging these days.
Also - FYI, I did the Q2 upgrade a while ago and paid $1100 for the part from Sydney with full warranty and everything.
Anyway, thanks for all the help with the issue. I'm still a bit concerned I'll get another crazy message ECU warning message, but wait and see I suppose. Next job's the timing belt. I don't know what to do though. The belt was done at 27,000 kms in late 2007. It's now 43,000kms and June 2011. I know it's past the 3 years, but it's only done 16,000kms. I don't want to push my luck, but I was hoping to stretch it another 12 months. Lord knows I'll only do another 5,000kms.
$1,100 for a local q2 is a damn impressive price... well done! did that include new bearings and 4 seals i.e. full kit or just diff?
yeah, cam belt @ 3yrs replace... unfort... the risk is simply too great to defer for 12mo... esp, if you intend to keep the car for a while...
when it goes engine = cactus... an' the 3.2 is a good 'un...
u wouldn't care so much if it was a TS for example...
That was for the full kit - I was pretty happy with the Q2 price. Unfortunately I decided to do the clutch at the same time as the gearbox had to come out anyway which was another $700 just for the clutch part. Labour was then the killer on the job, as I expected.
The cam belt is going to kill me though. I know I need to do it, but replacing a cam belt after 16,000kms is just ludicrous. The 30,000km/3 year mark still seems a bit rich to me that in this day and age they can't make one that will get you to 5 yr/100,000kms with ease, but I just cannot seem to justify having to replace a cam belt at 16,000kms because it's hit 3 years at this stage.
I'd be interested to find out what other car makes require a 30,000km/3 year timing belt replacement and what cost that involves. The cam belt is a cam belt + water pump job so it's going to be a $2-$3k at the least. Crazy, particularly that before hitting 50,000kms I will have replaced the timing belt and water pump (twice). Can't think of another car that would have the same problem (maybe a ferrari? lol)
The tensioners wear out on a distance, ie they turn X billion times and then they are worn out, they don't wear out on a time basis as they are not turning, however the belts will turn a few billion times and last for 3 years, but the problem is with belts, is they dry out and become brittle, and the teeth can break off which is the same as the belt breaking, the water pump should be replaced with one with a metal impellor[fan], the plastic impellors crack and at freeway speeds they spin on the shaft and do not pump water and the car overheats at freeway speeds, however round the city the fans do not slip as much so the car is less prone to overheating, as Wankski pounted out, look after that 3.2V-6, there are not many around and the ones that are are expensive, i saw one a few years ago for $6500+, if it was a twin spark it would not matter that much as they start at around $1500+ at wreckers, Colin.
further to what colin mentioned, you don't need to do the water pump again if you are sure it's been changed with a metal one - plastic has been phased out, and the metal one should last 100k kms no worries...
the v6 i believe has a better cam belt arrangement and life cf the fiat 4 design, but still... if it does go, no-one to blame... major ouch to repair or replace...
better safer than sorrier... ???
Hi guys
Wankski raises an interesting point in that the V6 cam belt arrangement was superior to the 4-cylinder. In fact, if you review the AR bulletin issued in 2006 which revised the cam belt change intervals down from 100,000km/5 years to 60,000km/3 years it only actually covered the 4-cylinder models. To my knowledge (and I'm happy to be proven wrong here) there has never been a factory-issued directive stating the V6 intervals had ever changed from the original.
My service book states something like 'inspection at 60,000km/3 years, replacement at 100,000km/5 years, unless harsh conditions dictate earlier replacement'.
Am I advocating stretching out to the full original interval? Hell no! But, there is probably (possibly) more margin than with the a 4-cylinder used in the same manner. Me, I'll be sweating every day from the 3-year mark until it's done. Peace of mind is a wonderful thing....
Cheers
Rory
Thanks guys - I love the car and am happy to spend $ on it as I already have - I like to keep my alfas pretty meticulous. The possibility of having to do a timing belt so soon after the last one (16,000kms) is what's getting to me i suppose.
Either way, it would be good to get some sort of directive straight from Alfa about the 3.2v6 timing belt and water pump replacement.
I'll probably just try and stretch it out until the end of the year and then get it all done.
yes Rori, i believe u are correct, i just didn't want to say the v6 was good for 5yrs...
AR notice only covered 4 cyl models...
ATECO aus applied it model range wide, IIRC citing aus as a harsh climate....
anyway i believe we, and the OP, know what's what... make of it what you will...officially in aus... 3 yrs/60k kms...
Quote from: 155 lover on June 17, 2011, 04:17:30 PMThe possibility of having to do a timing belt so soon after the last one (16,000kms) is what's getting to me i suppose.
Meh, my GT's belt will be 'due' next year, at 6 years. At 3 years, the car had travelled about 21K km. At 6 years, I estimate it will have travelled a total 28-29K km, so the belt will have seen 8K km!
I will have it changed. The only consolation being I can confidently retain the pump, idlers, and tensioner, because these were all changed at the 3 year mark!
As per Rory, it's for peace of mind!
:)
I don't think the V6 cam belt service frequency was changed by Alfa either. Only the 4cyl petrol engines to my knowledge. If you are going to change it, change everything in the critical path including the water pump, tensioners etc.
60,000kls or 3 years inspection, so you pay someone to remove your belts and tensioners to inspect, and you can't look at the belt while it is installed, so it has to be taken off to check the teeth, and then it all has to be put back on, would it not be better to put new a new belt on while it is all pulled apart, and do away with this inspection business, actually everyone seems to have a different idea of belt renewals, just remember as per all high performance engines, they have high compressions and the valves run close to the pistons, they are called an interference engine, that is belt goes, valves interfere with pistons, non interference, valves run further away from pistons, years ago i had a low performance car, after 18 years and 170,000kls, the teeth sheared off the belt and the engine stopped, no damage, but then it was not an interference motor, Colin.
I would love to see a chain conversion kit for these engines. This was never a problem with my 30 year old 105 series.
Every time you renew the belts your timing is perfect again, until the belts stretch, with a chain, they also stretch and the timing goes out as does your performance and fuel economy, there is a certain V-6 that Alfa now use and when the chain stretches a lot the variable valve timing goes out of kilter and causes an engine alarm, i know a freind at work had this happen to his VE Commodore, and it went into limp mode because the chain had stretched, and the only way to fix it is a new chain which is a lot more expensive than a belt change, swings and roundabouts, Colin.
Was just reading the UK site on this subject, interesting that the v6 cam belt change frequency is different round the world and by model (2.5/3.0/3.2). I wonder if this is alfa planning for different markets/conditions or (ateco?) alfa australia just gouging.
In anycase i always err on the side of safety and replace anything and everything preventative maintenance wise in the critical path when in doubt given labor is usually the most expensive bit if your not doing it yourself
Not sure (in my mind) that inspection includes the necessity to remove the belts. Cant the belts be visually checked for wear, imperfections and/or noisy bearings/tensioners by just removing the plastic cam covers?
The belts have to be taken off to inspect the teeth for cracks and the belt drying out, most belts look ok from the outside because the outside does not do any work and the tensioners, apart from looking at a rough finish on the pulley and obvious signs of a leak, they need to be taken off and checked for freeplay and rough running, and while it is all off you might as well put new parts on it as the labour bill is going to be the same, Colin.
Quote from: bix on June 17, 2011, 10:08:10 PM
I would love to see a chain conversion kit for these engines. This was never a problem with my 30 year old 105 series.
that, will never happen. chain systems are internal, lubed by the engine oil... chains don't 'stretch' the roller balls and links wear causing overall elongation over 100+ links... the biggest reason for wear is debris and particulate ingestion by the roller ball, causing internal grinding and play b/w the ball and links...
so, as you can see, and external 'dry' system would not work very well for long...
as colcol mentioned... belts are fine, but belt systems on interference motors is a bit rubbish... really, alfa could have made pocketed pistons and this whole discussion would be moot.
On one of my Mercedes I had once a chain jump a couple of teeth. It happened on start-up, I shut it down immediately and managed to avoid bending valves, but it still cost $3500 to repair the damage. Yes I'd prefer chains over belts, but chains aren't immune from problems either.
BTW changing the cambelt on out Tarago costs an eye-watering $290 ....
Rory
The closer you run the pistons to the valves the more compression, the more power you get, move them away and you lose power, putting cutouts in the pistons would give more clearance for valve to piston, but you would lose power, just change the belts when you should and there will be no need for this discussion, also chain drives have a lot more noise vibration and harshness, but you don't have to change them till they skip a sprocket or they break, Colin.
Quotejust change the belts when you should and there will be no need for this discussion ...
I doubt there would be any discussion if it wasn't such an expensive exercise.
Yes, but they are an Alfa Romeo, you should know that they are not going to be as cheap to run as a Hyundai Getz, when they were new they were say $50,000, now they are worth half of that, they don't cost half as much to run as they did new, if you don't want to change the belts, fine just keep driving until it goes bang and then moan about the high price of reconditioned engines, Colin.
Quote from: wankski on June 18, 2011, 10:24:49 AM
Quote from: bix on June 17, 2011, 10:08:10 PM
I would love to see a chain conversion kit for these engines. This was never a problem with my 30 year old 105 series.
that, will never happen. chain systems are internal, lubed by the engine oil... chains don't 'stretch' the roller balls and links wear causing overall elongation over 100+ links... the biggest reason for wear is debris and particulate ingestion by the roller ball, causing internal grinding and play b/w the ball and links...
so, as you can see, and external 'dry' system would not work very well for long...
as colcol mentioned... belts are fine, but belt systems on interference motors is a bit rubbish... really, alfa could have made pocketed pistons and this whole discussion would be moot.
Yes that's a good point Wankski. I guess the chains in the 105 are lubed by the engine oil which would be a challenge if replacing a belt system with a chain in a modern engine.
Quote from: Craig_m67 on June 18, 2011, 12:04:10 AM
Was just reading the UK site on this subject, interesting that the v6 cam belt change frequency is different round the world and by model (2.5/3.0/3.2). I wonder if this is alfa planning for different markets/conditions or (ateco?) alfa australia just gouging.
In anycase i always err on the side of safety and replace anything and everything preventative maintenance wise in the critical path when in doubt given labor is usually the most expensive bit if your not doing it yourself
Not sure (in my mind) that inspection includes the necessity to remove the belts. Cant the belts be visually checked for wear, imperfections and/or noisy bearings/tensioners by just removing the plastic cam covers?
My 156 manual actually recommends changing the belts more frequently if the car lives in harsher climates. I suspect the cold weather may degrade the rubber more readily.
Hang on, doesn't that mean that living in a mild climate such as Oz, I can stretch my belt change for another couple of years??? - I personally don't think it would be worth the psychological stress worrying if the belt was going to break or not. If anything is to go wrong with the car it will always happen when the wife is driving alone in some remote parts...
The hot temperatures in Australia dry the belts out and the dust, which engineers say is only found in Australia wear the belts, they have their sharp edges ground away by the dust, which means the sharp edges no longer contact, and the radiused edges are more prone to slipping off the cogs, the cold temperatures were the achilles heel of the early twin sparks in freezing climates as the PLASTIC belt tensioners would shatter as they were brittle and the cam belt would go loose destroying your engine, Colin.
Quote
if you don't want to change the belts, fine just keep driving until it goes bang and then moan about the high price of reconditioned engines, Colin.
I never said I was not going to change the belts then moan about a blown engine Colin. I agree with all the technical points you've made here, but I hope you agree that, regardless of them original price of the vehicle, these days the cost of a cambelt change is a significant percentage of the vehicle's current value. Again, hence the discussion.
Totally agree, and you will reach a stage when it just won't be worth changing the belts on the V-6 as the cost of a belt change, up to $2500, will exceed the price of the car, you can't blame the mechanics for the high price of the belt change, its just a lot of work to change it, and if possible have a look at one of these belts and see and feel the belts and think about what a great job they do, there is no right or wrong answer to this question, if you don't like rubber cam belts, get a 159 with a benzina 4 or V-6, they are a chain drive, Colin.
That's a good point Colin. There is actually no programmed maintenance schedule to replace the chains on the petrol 159s (although there has been some issues noted on the forums regarding stretched chains).
That means in theory that my 159 will be cheaper in the long-run on maintenance costs than even our twin spark 156 (cheaper than the v6 but still over $1300 every 3 years).
On a side-note, the 159 diesel does use a belt. The 159 service book recommends the diesel belt to be changed every 150,000km's or "...every 3 years if the vehicle is used in one of the following particularly harsh conditions: prolonged used in hot/cold climates; town driving with a lot of idling; use on particularly dusty roads." Ozzie driving probably ticks the prolonged hot climate box, and driving in Sydney or Melbourne would tick the "lot of idling" box.
With that sort of distance of 150,000, you would say its a non interference type motor, so if the belt breaks, tow it to the mechanics and fit a new one, as you know the diesel engine in the 159 is made in Italy by a specialist diesel engine maker, that among others makes the diesel engines for Rover, the diesel in the 159 is an absolute ripper all that torque, and most importantly its an Italian car with an Italian motor, good stuff!, Colin.
Just paid almost $2800 for a service and cam belt and water pump change for my 156 GTA. There were a lot of problems with the dealer and service that I won't care to mention but will try to get them sorted out tomorrow when I take it back. Last cam belt change was 50000kms by PO 4 years ago and it's done 74000kms now
However, I noticed the idle doesn't appear to be as smooth as I remember it to be. Almost feels like a very slight miss fire occasionally when idle but when the car is going and revving higher, it seems fine. Anyone have any ideas what could have transpired or is that normal? Would a tooth out on one of the cams cause that?
On another note, I had my 1999 Subaru 2 door STi in for a cam belt change - I have had it since new and this is the first cam belt change (12 years) , as the car has only done 49000kms. I was told and shown the old cam belt was almost like new and the rubber and teeth were still very supple with no hint of dryness. I know I was stretching it a bit as the Subaru boxer motors are interference type and redline is 8000rpm...... but it's good to know there's a good safety margin with the Subaru. (The Subaru cam belt change cost a fraction of what the Alfa belt change was :) ) . I don't think I will take the chance with the Alfa and will have to follow the recommended service / cam belt interval ........ :)
Quote from: bteoh on June 20, 2011, 12:29:04 AM
However, I noticed the idle doesn't appear to be as smooth as I remember it to be. Almost feels like a very slight miss fire occasionally when idle but when the car is going and revving higher, it seems fine. Anyone have any ideas what could have transpired or is that normal? Would a tooth out on one of the cams cause that?
I'm interested in the solution, my 05 GTA has a similar rough idle, it was suggested to me it was spark plugs which I have yet to change over (on account of having to take the manifold off). If I get around to changing the spark plugs, I'll let you know if it fixes the problem.
Nice advice and discussion from everyone on the belts - appreciate all the advice.
Anyway, further to my original problem, I got the car back, but it just doesn't "sound" the same (slightly rough-ish sound coming from the engine, not the exhaust) and the mechanic did not do anything except replace brake fluid, change the clutch slave and clutch master cylinders. Added to this, the comments from the mechanic are not encouraging me that he thoroughly checked the "motor control system failure" message I got. He said the warning code he read on the computer was related to coolant temperature.
Given that I got the MCSF warning when on the freeway (at about 130km/h), and knowing that the plastic water pump impellors can go funny at freeway speeds (I read this somewhere on the forum - correct me if I'm wrong), I'm now wondering if the original owner did the water pump when they did the belt at 27,000kms, and if that could be the cause of the MCSF warning. The dealer has the receipt number for the timing belt and they claim that they always do the pump at the same time as the belt, but he told me the pump wasn't listed as a part, so I have to question it.
Either way I've decided not to chance it, I'm going to take it to a different mechanic and get the water pump and belt done and be done with it.
Thanks again for the experiences and advice provided - very helpful indeed.
To colcol - I initially questioned the expense for the belts and water pump because I know the layout of the engine bay in the GTA (and in other alfas) just isn't conducive to working on cheaply. I.e. to change a parker light bulb, I need to remove the bumper is just one example. I know you can expect increased service costs with an alfa, but I wonder if they had spent a few more $$ on design and forward thinking about servicing needs, if they could not have reduced the labour hours required to service the car. I've got no problem with more expensive parts and designs to improve performance - that's what makes an Alfa special, but I can't help but wonder to what extent they could have spent some money laying out the engine in such a way that improves access and reduces servicing costs associated with labour.
alfa did a very good job...
its a 400lb monster v6 in a fwd layout in a engine bay designed for 4cyl...
GTAs came later, shoehorned into the 4 banger cooking model.. 4 banger in a transverse layout is bad enuff... make it a v6 the size of a small v8 and ain't nuthin' u can really do about it...
Could not agree more, a bit more thought should be put into these things such as accesable bolts or panels that unbolt to get to things, they need to say to the designers, ok you designed it, now you show us how to fix it in an hour, and talking of cam belt changes in WRX's and STI's, at work, one of the junior engineers decided that he better change the cam belts in his WRX, because it was 10 years old and it had done 130,000, but because they are Turbocharged they run low compression and have generous valve to piston clearance, it is not the must do ticket like it is in Alfa's, Colin.
Yeah I know they did well to fit it in there, and it's awesome having that 3.2 V6 in the 147 body, however there's nothing that a good bit of engineering can't improve on. As colcol said, having made the car, I just think Alfa could have spent more time and effort into making sure things are as easily accessible as possible and at the moment, I don't think they are when you have to work on the car.
Oh and I'm getting the timing belt and water pump done next Thursday if all goes to plan. A small fortune but at least I'll be able to drive it without worrying.
UPDATE:
After all the discussion and good advice on this forum, I wasn't happy with my first mechanic's diagnosis with regards to the motor control system failure and the cooling system and frankly it seemed a lot like blatant disregard for my suggestions. I took it to another specialist alfa mechanic with my concerns - basically all the discussion on here and previous posts, combined with the symptoms the car was displaying suggested a possible cracked plastic water pump impellor. I did a lot of reading on it and I was pretty convinced this could be the problem given that the previous dealer couldn't verify if they did the water pump with the timing belt at 27,000kms.
Anyway, I decided to do the timing belt and water pump because it was a little over 3 years with the new mechanic and sure enough, I just received a phone call letting me know that the plastic impellor is completely cracked, although it's not yet spinning. Overall I'm pretty happy that they found the problem and it's pretty straight forward and common, so I'll be getting the new water pump with the metal impellor.
A big thank you to all those that commented and provided advice - a good outcome in the end, everything else is in good condition.
Lastly, what oil should I be running in the GTA? Just for my own knowledge really - the mechanic recommended a fully synthetic oil I think - castrol edge sport or something.
Quote from: 155 lover on June 30, 2011, 04:43:58 PM
Lastly, what oil should I be running in the GTA? Just for my own knowledge really - the mechanic recommended a fully synthetic oil I think - castrol edge sport or something.
god job getting it sorted!!
GTA manual spec: 10w-60 API SL and ACEA A3.
Yes castrol edge 10w-60 is a good substitute for the spec'd selenia.
I had a similar issue re the rough idle and almost sounding like an occassional misfire after belts were done.
And new coil packs and new plugs . .
did you resolve this and how BTEOH and Brad ?
the problem is marking the pulleys instead of the correct procedure to strip all pulleys from their taper lock - using proper cam locks and starting the timing again as reference from TDC cyl1.
common.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-164-and-166/212058-166-3-0-terribly-rough-idle-knocking-noise-after-cambelt-2.html
timing must be done 100% correctly, u can rely on NO factory markings... and the pulley MUST come off.
wankski, it was done properly, the timing was checked with camlocks, with cyl 1 at TDC, and the cam locks slotted in perfectly.
they found the new spark plugs had a white coating, and I suspect (i sourced them from overseas) they weren't the right heat range, also the decarbonised the intake runners and plenum, seem to have improved quite a bit, but the uneven idle (happens only intermittently) is still there, but I will do an ecu reset and see if that helps further.
yeah, it's just in most cases if it happens right after belt change...
correct plugs are NGK R PFR6B.