hello everyone, my 2l berlina will no longer start nor even fire! ???
It has been in the shed without being started for a month or so as the brake issues had got me down and I couldn`t face it. i needed to move it last week so turned the key and would have flattened the battery if I had kept cranking. The car engine was running roughly up to Easter but needed a tune up big time...but it did start up reasonably easily.
I have checked fuel and the pump is pushing it to the carbs. I have 95 octane in it.
I have checked and cleaned up the plugs ...lots of carbon on them, and reset the gaps.
I have reset the points and they are close if not exact. Each plug is arcing when the key is turned so spark is getting to the plugs.
I have tried to examine the timing with a strobe but i think it is well out. I tried to undo the dizzy to rotate it slightly but after loosening the 10mm nut it is not possible to rotate the dizzy at all...how do I unstick it??
I have removed each plug and given each of the cyls a squirt of start-ya-bastard before putting the plugs back in along with a short blast into the air filter box........then turned the key but still it will not fire!
What next do you think? I am nearly ready to buy a toyota!
Mickl
Sounds like fun :) Are you getting even a cough or a pop as you crank the engine, or nothing at all ?
If it was running, albeit roughly, before you laid it up - I wouldn't change the timing and add another unknown (although I do that all the time - I'm hopeless :) ) It should at least pop / cough a little even with the timing out. Even with the leads on the wrong plugs you usually still get the odd pop / cough / stall when cranking for a while. If you've loosened the clamping 10mm right off and still can't turn the dizzy - you might need to remove the locking 10mm (that faces straight up) and wiggle / lift the dizzy + clamp plate out together and free them up on the bench (mark the position so you can put it back the same way) Careful lining up the slot on the bottom of the dizzy with the shaft in the block - it fits fairly easily one way - but can be forced in180deg out of phase.
after cranking, if you pull one of the plugs and then crank again - can you smell the fuel from the cylinder ? although if you tried cranking while spraying a little start-ya-bastard in the intake I'd expect you to get a result of some sort to prove the carbs weren't fueling. You can check if the carbs have fuel in their bowls by taking off the jet cover, and unscrewing the main jet - it will be wet on the bottom with petrol if the bowls are full. The needle and seats in don't usually stick shut but the fuel lines can swell inside and block fuel supply - and also degrade and fill the carb filters with rubber gunk.
if no coughs / pops though - points back to spark, even though you've checked that. After sitting for a month or two then a no start (particularly coming into winter) I'd have checked through the points etc exactly like you did..
I hope that helps a little anyway - I hope wiser folks might have an AHA moment for you :)
Cheers,
QuoteWhat next do you think? I am nearly ready to buy a toyota!
Don't do that, some may view it as the cowards way out but just go and join RACV road side assist. Best money you can spend with an old Alfa.
have you checked the jets in the carbs they might be a little blocked
Thanks all for your help with this problem.....but it is not yet resolved.
Paul: the car is being brought back to some semblance of its original glory and it is unregistered so I am unable to join up with RACV/NRMA until it is registered.
Dehne: i have removed the carb tops and checked that each jet is free and not binding.
Chowderboy and Aikendrum; When I removed the carb tops I found plenty of fuel in the bowls and there was no gunk. I also removed the 19mm brass nut and removed the small brass filters and they were both clean. I cranked the engine and the fuel pump delivered a good flow of fuel through the delivery line.
I opened the throttle by hand and put a short squirt of start ya bastard into each port and cranked again.....no result. The engine will not even cough or splutter at all and refuses to fire or pop despite the plugs being clean and points set reasonably ok
I don`t think the choke is connected...could this be an issue? It looks like it never has been so that may not be the reason for the engine not starting as it previously did?? I am not so sure on how to set the choke cable up so this job was awaiting the time when I could drive it to a good mechanic to get fixed.
I have not revisited the dizzy/timing yet as I thought to get the carb checks done first.
In cranking the engine it does not sound like I have a solid battery as it can be a bit slow to turn over for a couple of seconds until it gets into a rhythm. The battery is new and fully charged so does this "heavy load/ flat battery sound" mean there is an elec issue somewhere?
Oh Boy.....there is alot to sort out with this berlina, the brakes not functioning (still!) and all of the elec connections to lights and blinkers etc yet to be sorted out. Bringing an Alfa back to life is turning into a bit of a nightmare for me!
Mickl
+1 on the plugs, it's weird but they do play up under compression when they get older - I had a set in the Super that threw me off track for a while - you could take them out, wire-brush them, hit them with a little carburettor cleaner - then burn the residue off with a propane torch, then put them in the car and they would start perfectly. Once. then you would lose 1-2 of them on the next start - at random - when you pulled them they were clean, not fouled or soaked with petrol - but there you go.
after everything you've checked - it almost has to be electrical. One thing I had happen years ago with a Pug 504 (what a legendary car) - I took it to the car wash and pressure washed the engine - inevitably soaking the dizzy in the process despite best efforts with plastic backs and rubber bands... After that it wouldn't start. We pushed it out into the road and checked everything - spark at the plugs on cranking, fuel, etc etc.
Turned out that cranking with a shorted dizzy for a while had toasted the fancy GT40 coil I had in the car - it would spark when the plug was out of the car, but not under compression.. very frustrating. after trying everything else - 2 hours later I threw the old ducellier oil coil in and away she went. Anyway - that's anectodal but maybe helpful...
I have a spare coil /leads set and possibly a points dizzy in the shed (Richmond) - you are welcome to borrow if that helps you narrow it down without throwing ca$h at it - let me know. If you get new plugs - I find NGK BP7S are great. I did actually run BP7ES for quite a while - but they are an extended electrode plug and dance a little closer to the valves / piston crown than is generally prudent.
Cheers,
Hello again
new BP7ES plugs installed but no change at all.........not a single firing anywhere.
Could it be the strength of the spark.......it looks more yellow than blue? If so what could be replaced or modified to boost the spark?? Is this a possibility?
I am also borrowing a compression tester from a friend later this week.......if compression is low would this be a likely cause? What compression should be expected from this engine and what would be considered to be too low?
The battery is new, fully charged and is rated fairly high CCA
Thanks in advance
Mickl
My TCW.
This might sound like overkill and if this was my car in my garage, I would do this in stages but in your case it will pay to do it anyway if you intend to restore the car.
My money is on the electrics for now. So do this:
1 Fit new cap and rotor.
2 Fit new HT lead from coil to distributor
3 Fit new coil
4 Fit new condenser
5 Fit new points
6 Fit new or substitue a known good ballast resistor. (Prime suspect ATM)
Check for voltage drop at the coil primary during cranking. If it drops below 10.5 volts, install relay to deliver good supply to coil via fuse.
BTW A standard Berlina road engine require BP6ES plugs not BP7ES which are the wrong temperature rating for this engine.
Finally, none of this will work unless the engine is set for correct ignition timing. Job no 1.
Concentrate on the electrics first. The fuel will be easier to deal with if it is a problem at all.
Hi Mick,
You may have tried this anyway, but recently my berlina (1750) would not start despite continual cranking. It did not even sound like it wouls start. So I took off the distributor cap and sprayed some stuff called CRC aerostart into it. Popped it back on and the car then started staight away and ran even smoother than before. It had been cold and damp and when I lifted the bonnet I noticed that there was condensation on the cam covers of the engine making me suspect it was a moisture issue.
Give it a go, surely if the car was going before it must be something simple and much easier than the other solutions proposed.
cheers
Tony
Mickl,
The NGK advisory chart certainly nominates BP7ES as the correct plug for this engine in 2011.
Just to explain why I nominated 6's..
In the mid seventies when I owned a 2 litre Berlina ,it used to be tuned by one of the best carbie tuners in Brisbane, He used 6's in my engine for correct tuning. He himself had a Berlina as well and he used the same in his own car.
Whether NGK has shifted its heat ranges over the years I cannot say but the advice given was indeed based on personal use. It's why I never even bothered to consult the current chart.
At the end of the day, the heat range is not a key problem now. You can work through those issues if you need to once you get the engine to fire.
Sorry to hijack this thread, but this may help clear up the spark plug debate.
MD I believe that the temperature rating between then & now would be to do with running super compared to unleaded fuel (can't really be sure, as I wasn't around in the 70's). But I do recall in Karting when super was the fuel, that you had to remove the spark plug immediately after your race, so that it didn't foul the plug, where as with unleaded, it was not nearly as important to do so.
Maybe one of the chemical engineers on here may be able to confirm?
Just my 2c.
Could well be the case. Perhaps other 105 owners at the time may recollect using 6's but this is a distraction from Mickl's problem at hand and so I suppose we should refocus.
I remember owning an early series VW Golf. It had two major problems. It would go like a scalded cat on a hot tin roof but it would not stop 'cause the brakes were useless. The second problem it had was an intermittent ballast resistor issue. The ignition would simply die anywhere, anytime and then it wouldn't start for love or money. I threatened to burn the fukker many times.
Spark in open air is one thing but spark under compression requires a correctly functioning ignition system.Ballast resistors play an important role here especially when its cold and battery cranking voltages are lower. Everything I have suggested previously is simply designed to ensure the engine gets its original timing and spark intensity and if it does, it will definitely at least want to fire and then you can refine the diagnosis from there.
Wow! Thanks for the help from everybody. I must be making headway here. Starting to smile again rather than grimace.
Tony...the CRc trick was not successful and the inside of the dizzy was quite dry.
MD...thanks for your expertise, I am working on getting the timing right but am having trouble getting TDC on cyl 1. The nut to turn the engine by hand is so close to the radiator and shroud that I cannot get a spanner to it. I don`t want to remove the radiator if there is another way. So I removed all spark plugs to remove compression and then tried to turn the crankshaft by turning the fan by hand but it just made the belt slip on the fan`s pulley. I would have thought it must turn easily, but no. So is there a simple way of getting TDC on cyl 1 without removing the radiator?
I will be getting the compression tested tomorrow. Do you crank the engine for about 4 secs until the compression guage settles?
At the moment I look like getting an auto elec over on the weekend as a last resort to check the coil, condenser, ballast resistor and timing etc
More soon.......Mickl
Seems odd you can't turn by hand on the pulley/belt with no plugs in. I've done sillier things myself (ask my wife, she keeps a list) so I feel safe in asking - it is out of gear isn't it? :P
But whatever - It has to be spark surely - can't see how your timing can be so bad you are getting no hint of firing. MDs suggestion to replace more or less everything is fine - but if you want to be selective about it....
You haven't said anything about actually checking the points? if you can turn it over and just check that they do actually have a usable dwell angle before they open (rather than messing about with the specified gap etc it proly isn't that - it will run at idle without much time closed at all if everything else is good).
If points look ok chuck a coil in it (otherwise do the points obviously) and the condenser is cheap and easy to replace and can be a proble so do that regardless. Don't forget these things are all "consumables" you will want new points, coil eventually - or someone will...
PS: Only going for the coil so I can tell MD he was wrong for once ::) And you can always check if the ballast is a problem by bypassing it (ie stick a bit of wire across it). Not sure if the ignition cct is set up to bypass when cranking on a Berlina or not, but it won't do any harm running it that way at idle for a while before you go out and buy a new one only to find it *isn't* the problem.
Thanks for the post Darryl........it was in neutral when I tried first up and i couldn,t get it to move. Then I thought maybe I could put it in drive or first gear and turn the tailshaft to get the crankshaft to move, but again turning the tailshaft was relatively easy but I could not discern any movement in the crankshaft pulley. By luck with short cranking, I managed to get the pulley marks in view near the pointer. The pointer is about 10mm from the M mark and between the M and the F mark. The F mark is just out of sight. looking in the dizzy, the points are not yet on the high point of the shaft and hence not yet fully open to the max gap.
looks like I will have to remove the radiator now as I have noticed a small water leak from behind the pulley which carries the fan. Would it also be a good time to get the timing chain replaced or at least inspected/ Who knows when it was last replaced. I do not have a workshop manual for the car and I suspect this might also be a job for the pros....any idea of what it might cost?
Auto electrician arrives tomorrow morning so there may be more to post tomorrow!
Thanks to all, Mickl
Quote...Only going for the coil so I can tell MD he was wrong for once...
Been wrong many times but I am always happy to learn something by it so don't hold back. I am an expert on humble pie.. :D
Quote from: mickl on June 03, 2011, 01:57:21 PM
The pointer is about 10mm from the M mark and between the M and the F mark. The F mark is just out of sight. looking in the dizzy, the points are not yet on the high point of the shaft and hence not yet fully open to the max gap.
If I'm understanding that description correctly, your points are open before F, which is the static timing mark, so timing is advanced, but by the sounds of it not by much so probably ok/good.
Quote from: mickl on June 03, 2011, 01:57:21 PM
looks like I will have to remove the radiator now as I have noticed a small water leak from behind the pulley which carries the fan. Would it also be a good time to get the timing chain replaced or at least inspected/ Who knows when it was last replaced. I do not have a workshop manual for the car and I suspect this might also be a job for the pros....any idea of what it might cost?
Leave the timing chain alone - unlike a belt it isn't a regular service item, very unlikely you need to replace it. If it is loose you can adjust the tensioner easily enough yourself.
Well, the day started badly but improved significantly>>>
;D
I was trying to find tdc on one and was using a length of 10mm wooden dowel as the indicator. The auto electrician arrived and I got distracted and forgot to remove the stick from number one. In the mean time auto elec was checking coil etc and got me to turn over the engine and you know what happened next eh? >:( After about 20 mins of trying to extract the bigger bits of stick with long tweezers, we started the compressor and managed to blow all of the rest of the bits out of the plug hole.....and hoped that none were jammed in the valve openings. It seemed to work.
The auto elec was alot stronger than me and just managed to rotate the pulley until he had tdc on cyl one. Timing marks were well out so he loosened the dizzy and with some strong wrist action freed up the dizzy enough to do a static test and got the timing reasonably ok. Coil, condenser etc all ok.
he then closed the gaps on the brandnew sparkplugs to leave 0.5mm gap 9my owners manual does not give this info as it must have come with some fancy 4 electrode plugs which didn`t need adjusting)....hope this is close to what is needed?? Checked a plug after some cranking and determined it was bone dry so no fuel getting to the cyls.
Still no firing under cranking but we felt it was nearly there! He added jumper leads from his landcruiser to my new battery and we tried again....one or two pops now. We pulled out the start-ya-bastard, got a fire extinguiser ready, removed the air filter box and sprayed ether around the openings while cranking.....lots of coughs and splutters but it started to run. Engine stopped after ceasing spraying the ether though, so kept spraying until it warmed up a bit, the used the throttle and revved it up to 4000 and back for a minute and somehow the fuel blockage was no longer there and the engine ran without the ether. Stopped it and recranked with it starting and running ok now.
:D
I now notice a water leak just behind the pulley at the water pump. It is not a big leak but drips out a bit and needed about 500mls in the radiator with the drips running down the fan belt and onto the garage floor. Can this be fixed with some of that bars leaks stuff or will I need to remove the radiator and water pump and fit a new gasket/
Sorry for the "war and peace" but I am not very mech savvy and am learning alot here.Mickl
Sounds like you need a new water pump to me.
This is getting humerous.
All that is needed to fire a internal combustion engine is compression, spark & fuel/air mixture.
Firing order is 1,3,4,2
If you are unsure about the ballast resistor, disconnect it and connect ignition power direct to the coil. This will overload the coil & give you a more powerful spark, (like in cranking mode) and will only be an issue if left connected without the resistor long term.
If you think the spark is yellow,replace the condenser on the side of the distributor.
Forget spark plugs, any plugs will do to start.
If you are unsure about the timing, time the car statically.
If all else fails, I will buy your car!
Gary, I would have nearly given this car away last week but we have got it going again so I am feeling better disposed towards it.....and also because of the money already sunk into it! There was not too much in the way of laughter after mashing that dowel either!
Darryl....I will put the water pump on the shopping list, thanks.
One or two more problem to resolve with the engine:
1 Whilst it now starts, it isn`t doing so that easily when cold and I think it is because there is no choke mechanism for the cold starts. Is it just a matter of getting a cable to attach to the dash knob or are there likely to be some fittings at the carb which have been removed? Where do I get a decent workshop manual?
2 I completed a compression check and think I have some sticking or badly adjusted valves: Cyl 1 was 130 psi dry and 140 wet; cyl 2 was 130 dry and 150 wet; cyl 3 was 85 dry and 93 wet; cyl 4 was 90 dry and 90 wet. Is there anything to the two front cylinders being much higher than 3 & 4? Would I also be right in thinking the rings are maybe a little worn but not too bad ly from the wet/dry comparisons?
Mickl
Quote from: Gary Pearce on June 04, 2011, 08:27:09 PM
This is getting humerous.
All that is needed to fire a internal combustion engine is compression, spark & fuel/air mixture.
Firing order is 1,3,4,2
If you are unsure about the ballast resistor, disconnect it and connect ignition power direct to the coil. This will overload the coil & give you a more powerful spark, (like in cranking mode) and will only be an issue if left connected without the resistor long term.
If you think the spark is yellow,replace the condenser on the side of the distributor.
Forget spark plugs, any plugs will do to start.
If you are unsure about the timing, time the car statically.
If all else fails, I will buy your car!
Agreed!
Mickl - on these cars the choke is redundant. To get it started from cold two pumps of the accelerator, foot off trottle and crank. It'll fire if all is well and then hold it on trottle at a few revs until it runs smoothly. If the hand trottle is connected you can use that while it warms up. Only takes a few seconds or less than a minute max.
On the compression, I don't recall if you said were you live but I'd be taking it to your local reputable Alfa workshop and have them check. Those numbers do seem very low all round.
With those compressions, I suggest that might have been the nub of your hard starting.
Low compressions? maybe you should sell the car to me?
Thanks again for the assistance.
Starting without ckoke is rather tedious as the engine will crank then fire for a couple of seconds before coughing to a standstill. Crank again etc for a minute or so until it decides to run a bit with no throttle then gradually quickly rev and release throttle until it is poss to hold at 2000 rpm to warm up. Using ether helps quite a bit but a proper thorough tune up will be what is needed. The car is unreg so I will need to hire a trailer to get it to a mech. As I live on the mid north coast of nsw i will poss take to Newcastle. Does anyone have details of a good mechanic there? I have previously used John Collins dyno for good results for my 260z.
A bit of research tells me I may have a head gasket issue with the two adjacent cylinders showing lower compression readings......can anyone verify?
Also, is the tappet cover gasket re-usable if I take the cover off to check the valves and the timing chain tension?
Thanks in advance
Mickl
Yes, you can re-use the cam cover gasket.
Quote from: Gary Pearce on June 07, 2011, 11:14:50 AM
maybe you should sell the car to me?
Quote from: Gary Pearce on June 04, 2011, 08:27:09 PM
If all else fails, I will buy your car!
Not sure what you are trying to say Gary, maybe you need to be more specific :P
He he! I like Berlinas. But given that I have recently (misguidedly) purchased 2 more cars........I had better zip my lip.
By the way Phil, congrats on the new flag marshal. ( or are you planning her to be a contender....too)
Seriously though Mickl, come along and joins us mad lot at AROCA vic and you will enjoy the advice and help that will make the ownership of these wonderful cars even more enjoyable. Alternatively a visit to one of the Club Sponsored workshops would provide you with an enormous amount of help and advice at not much money. Might save you a lot of pain and trouble in the long run.
Thanks again everyone:
Chowderboy...no offence taken and you are right. When I am able to find a good mech locally at Newcastle I wanted to have a spare gasket ready in case he is unable to get hold of one at short notice.
Aggie....thanks for the advice.
Gary...I would like to join up with some guys who know the ropes and have some social events/runs but Melbourne is a bit remote from where I live in Nelson Bay nsw
Mickl
The berlina is now firing up like it just left the factory. What a relief! After new head gasket, some valve adjustments, ignition timing set correctly, full weber tune up and new 95 octane in the tank (& removal of stale fuel from the tank by small elec pump). It is running well now thanks to Monaco performance in Newcastle. Some other issues have presented with electrics which I will start new thread on. Thanks to all for posting help to me on this topic over the months.
Mickl
Hi Mickl,
Glad to hear that at last you have got your berlina up and running and the brakes sorted. I have been wondering how you've been going with your problems. I have had my master cylinder rebuilt and a new set of pads fitted with positive improvement, but still have slight sticking, though not as bad as before and this odd increase in boost which occurs just after application of the brakes, almost like the second booster is not responding in snyc with the first. So the next, and hopefully the last job is to replace all the flexible hoses in the sysytem.
Anyway hope you get to drive your berlina soon and look forward to seeing some photos.
cheers
Tony