Hi all,
I have replaced my springs (whiteline) and shocks (bilstein) and am now looking at fitting a sway bar fronyt or back to reduce the amount of roll.
I understand there is a point of view that a bit of roll is good but I believe my Alfetta has excessive amounts. So I am after guidance on which to replace and what specification. I intend turning into a track car in the distant future but for now I am just hoping to stave of sea sickness when going around round abouts.
Thanks in advance
Two Dogs
The front sway bar off an Alfa 90 will fit . It is about 25% stiffer and won't cost an arm & leg. I'm sure if Dehne who posts regularly and has Australia's largest collection of Alfa 90's sees this he could point you in the right direction.
Gully
Another cheap upgrade is fitting 24mm (23.6) long torsion bars from a plastic bumper GTV or an early GTV6, being a 79 model
yours would most likely be 19mm.
Couple that with the 90 sway bar it would reduce body roll be without being too harsh. What model Bilsteins do you have ?
sorry to say but i have no fronts left, all sold but i have a rear one thats all, im looking at a guy making me a new front one soon so ill keep this updated
Quote from: Two Dogs on April 05, 2011, 04:09:50 PM
Hi all,
I have replaced my springs (whiteline) and shocks (bilstein) and am now looking at fitting a sway bar fronyt or back to reduce the amount of roll.
I understand there is a point of view that a bit of roll is good but I believe my Alfetta has excessive amounts. So I am after guidance on which to replace and what specification. I intend turning into a track car in the distant future but for now I am just hoping to stave of sea sickness when going around round abouts.
The easiest numerical comparison can be made by taking the diameter of the original bar and raising it to the forth power ('X'mm^4) and then comparing another thicker bar the same way. The units are irrelevant, but the percentage difference is an excellent comparison.
Thanks for the advice,
will the 90 rear be of any help ? Also the shocks are Bilstein B4. I'll probably leave the torsion bars until much later - changing them seems daunting from what I have read on the forum.
Thanks again :)
changing them is easy,
Has anyone out there come across a spare sway bar lately ?
Either a 90 or heavier Alfetta bar, front and rear.
Thanks
Hi Two Dogs,
I have had a quick read of this topic . I cannot see a clear picture emerging as to what is going to be your complete revised set up. In order to help, I would like to see what you currently have summerised including the size of torsion bars, sway bars, and rear spring rates.
Your plan should be a final picture and then work back from that rarther than adding bits and pieces in the hope that it all fit well.
The reason is, ( I am asuming you are running a standard engine) you may not even need a rear sway bar...bet that's got you scratching the bean bag ! ;D
Quote from: MD on November 03, 2012, 08:14:54 AM
Your plan should be a final picture and then work back from that rarther than adding bits and pieces in the hope that it all fit well.
Well said!
Quote from: MD on November 03, 2012, 08:14:54 AMThe reason is, ( I am asuming you are running a standard engine) you may not even need a rear sway bar...bet that's got you scratching the bean bag ! ;D
LOL! You sir, are being a menace! :P
Not everyone has fixed their woeful Alfa Romeo front geometry to actually make their tyres work properly, like you have. ;)
Yeah, wots happenin' with that hair dryer..?
You know how it goes. When a member's prefix says "Jr." you kind of never know whether that means junior knowledge or age and/or both. So it behoves guys like us to put the steering turn into the direction they should be going. The details are for the joy of the individual to put their stamp on it and call it their own. It's what makes working on your car a pleasure but you do want a good outcome for your financial and time involvement.
Before I get embarrassed further, to my shame, I think you should know that my efforts to solve handling issues with my beloved Alfettas has been the result of learning from others. No lightning bolt struck my cranium with gifts of ingenuity as I have been told I have an impenetrable phick head. ;D
Thanks for the feedback. The end state is a sedan that I can drive on the road but still do the odd track day. having said that, the track day would consist of frightening myself well away from the serious drivers.
So probably a minimal amount of engine work( cams and matching exhaust). To date I have just thrown some new springs and shocks at it with a mechanic going over the break system. This is because I love the car so much I decided to make it a daily driver until I accumulate the necessary parts.
I am sending the gearbox away for a total rebuild next week or so. Any parts I grab at this stage would be cleaned up and painted and stored for the total rebuild. I saved a 82 sportiva from the wreckers for spares, so things like the rear end bits such as the De-dion and associated parts will be stripped, painted and prepared for later.
If there is any info that may help, let me know.
Greatly appreciate the advice.
Two Dogs/ Carl
Quote from: Two Dogs on November 03, 2012, 12:51:25 PMIf there is any info that may help, let me know.
Oh where to begin? ;)
If you are prepared to approach your car the way MD said
Quote from: MD on November 03, 2012, 08:14:54 AMYour plan should be a final picture and then work back from that.............
my advice would be to start by fixing the front suspension geometry and adding actual spring rate (thicker torsion bars) 1st.
The better you can make the front tyres work (via geometry, alignment and spring rate), the less requirement you will have for a rear antiroll bar (as per what MD was alluding to).
I was going to go into some long tirade about all sorts of stuff, but I won't boor you with that. :o
If I had an Alfetta, my approach would be to leave the antiroll bars alone and add:
Pace Engineering/Vince Sharp's Long Shank Top Ball Joints. These go a long way to fix the front suspension geometry, but do introduce an unfortunate amount of bump steer.
Minimum of GTV6 torsion bars. Depending on the front weight of your car, these might well be enough, but I'd be looking more towards 27mm torsion bars.
Polyurethane caster arm bushes and assuming you don't have 'boney girl arms', more positive caster in the wheel alignment. 5* would help, but 6+ will help more.
The above recommendations will provide a massive improvement in the behavior of the front suspension, allowing it to do a MUCH better job of keeping the outside front wheel in better relationship to the road during cornering (the outside front wheel won't degenerate into positive camber with body roll, so the tyre's tread will maintain a much better contact patch with the road surface and so will have much more grip. Much more front grip equal LOTS less understeer!).
It will cost more, but the overall results will be much better.
Here's a picture of a 75 Twin Spark (Moundawg on AlfaBB's car) with the Alfaholics 'handling' kit (29mm front antiroll bar and heavier rate rear springs). As you can see, even with a huge increase in front antiroll bar rate, the car still has body roll and the front outside tyre has still moved into positive camber.
Corrected front suspension geometry, increased front spring rate and better wheel alignment specs would achieve a better result than this set up.
It's very interesting to note how much stuff Alfaholics make for the 105 chassi Alfa's! 2 of their most their most impressive kits are for corrected front suspension geometry 8).
Two Dogs,
Here's a simplified alternative to the Dukster (don't take it that I don't agree with him I'm just offering an alternative)
My parts bin:
For the road
7" rims > 205 x 45 road tyres @ 36psi
23mm torsion bars (if it needs more spring, add coil overs)
27mm front sway bar (have to strengthen existing mounts or they will just rip out)
185 lb rear springs but 35mm lower when fitted
Start with no rear sway bar (adding one could make the car handling a bit nervous, twitchy)(needs experimentaion)
At least a couple of degrees of negative camber
Some toe out ( needs experimenting for turn in )
About 3.5* castor is enough for this set up
Leave rear camber alone
Leave anything to do with roll centre alone.
Fit Bislteins
For the track
Fit competition brake pads on race days and put the road ones back when finished.
Use race tyres on track days. This is a must.
This is a mild tweek and will keep the suspension reasonably supple but firm up in the turns which is basically what a nice road car should drive like. Don't expect blistering on track handling as getting that perfect even for dedicated race cars is a pipedream.
Personally, I would restore the Sportiva to a sweet street car because it has better metallurgy and convert the '79 job into a dedicated racing chassis and then go as nuts as your wallet will handle.
You never know, you could possibly round up the Dukster by then in his hairdrier powered 75 weapon. ;D
Having said all that, I really am not a supporter of road cars being used on the track essentially on the basis of safety. Roll cages are there for a reason. They save lives. Motorsport is a dangerous activity and no protection is Russian Roulette. Think about it.
hi two dogs
heres my 2bobs budjet setup:
23.5mm torsion bars
22mm front sway bar
21mm rear sway bar
13mm diameter springs from 75ts 1 coil cutoff
koni yellows all round adjusted to 3/4
standard brakes with ebc greens pads
this setup served me well both on and off the track although brakes may fade after a few laps, fine for sprints though, and all these bits should be available from any of the alfa wreckers.
cheers Joe