Hi guys
Does the installing of teledials to the 75 require longer wheel bolts? I currently have the original 14" Benzoni wheels and it seems the holes on the teledials are too deep to easily get the current nuts on and off.
Were the original nuts for these wheels (from the 156 I assume) longer, and are they the same thread?
Cheers
I believe the 156 nuts are longer and you need to use them. I did a similar conversion and remember sourcing the longer wheel nuts from a 156
there are two lenghts for the 156 wheel bolt so be carefull, they are the same as the sud ones but again you need the long ones
I'm confused.... 75's have wheel nuts, with studs in the hub, 156's use wheel bolts, where the hub is threaded for them to screw into. How are you going to use 156 wheel bolts in place of the wheel nuts on a 75?
Quote from: Jekyll and Hyde on March 09, 2011, 09:17:02 PM
I'm confused.... 75's have wheel nuts, with studs in the hub, 156's use wheel bolts, where the hub is threaded for them to screw into. How are you going to use 156 wheel bolts in place of the wheel nuts on a 75?
Well, that's kinda what I'm asking, which nuts to use. There are a number of 75's with these wheels on.
Like Evan's, pictured in this thread: http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=6620.30 (http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=6620.30)
ok so you have a standard set up using factory 75 hub which will have the stud connected and you use wheel nuts to tighten the wheels. so what you need is spacers, 5 mm thick you can buy these from any auto store you can get ones that are a direct fit but you can also buy the others and just modify them to fit
The studs are a pretty common thread, it's no problem to get aftermarket nuts from a local wheel or performance shop. You may also need to open up the centre hole in the wheel by a half mm or so, to ensure it sits properly.
I've also only ever seen 156s with bolts rather than nuts.
Quote from: dehne on March 08, 2011, 10:54:51 PM
there are two lenghts for the 156 wheel bolt so be carefull, they are the same as the sud ones but again you need the long ones
Quote from: dehne on March 09, 2011, 10:33:59 PM
ok so you have a standard set up using factory 75 hub which will have the stud connected and you use wheel nuts to tighten the wheels. so what you need is spacers, 5 mm thick you can buy these from any auto store you can get ones that are a direct fit but you can also buy the others and just modify them to fit
dehne, this is why people swear at you. I know you are trying to help, but you end up doing the opposite. I would explain why these two posts were about ten different kinds of fail, but I know you wouldn't read it, and that you are never wrong. Oh, and since you're giving the advice, what is the situation with home-modified wheel spacers in regards to RWC and insurance companies?
Choderboy, all is forgiven.
In my experience a common mistake made over the years in this area is people not realising that a wheel is centred on the hub by EITHER the centre spigot on the hub OR the taper on the bolts / nuts. You must have one, you must not have both.
If the wheel is located by the spigot (that's the bit protudes from the hub and fits neatly into centre of the wheel) then typically the face of the nut/bolt will be flat. Conversely if the back of the nut/bolt is tapered the face of the hub is typically flush, or in the case of bearing caps protuding etc the centre does not interfere with the wheel in any way.
That means that:
- if you put a spacer on a wheel centred on the hub you need to provide the same location for the wheel after the spacer is fitted.
- if you put different nuts / bolts on you need to match both the face (tapered or flat) and if tapered you need to match the taper angle.
Bottom line, just because a nut or bolt threads on does not mean it is right. It may be, but check. Otherwise one day, sometime, somewhere totally inconvenient the wheel may come off, the wheel may break, or as is relatively common on 116's the studs may break. All happened over the years and all avoidable.
Quote from: aggie57 on March 10, 2011, 08:20:26 AMYou must have one, you must not have both.
Not both? Why not? ???
I realise this is the 160 series subforum (which I am interested in), but on my 155, GT, and 159, for example, all are hubcentric and have tapered bolts. That equates to 'both' does it not?
:)
Quote from: aggie57 on March 10, 2011, 08:20:26 AM
In my experience a common mistake made over the years in this area is people not realising that a wheel is centred on the hub by EITHER the centre spigot on the hub OR the taper on the bolts / nuts. You must have one, you must not have both.
If the wheel is located by the spigot (that's the bit protudes from the hub and fits neatly into centre of the wheel) then typically the face of the nut/bolt will be flat. Conversely if the back of the nut/bolt is tapered the face of the hub is typically flush, or in the case of bearing caps protuding etc the centre does not interfere with the wheel in any way.
Um...Sud/33/16v have centre bore spigot, <58.1mm to be precise, PLUS tapered seat ( 60 degrees to be precise, again)
Wheel locates onto locating ring around bearing cap, snugly, then tapered seat bolts tighten wheel to hub...they're designed to have both ! Wouldn't change anything, certainly wouldn't put on a rim that didn't fit the centre bore measurement exactly, ie be larger than 58.1mm(thats why spigot rings for aftermarket alloys exist) If the rim doesn't, then ALL load is on wheel bolts, to both hold/align wheel to hub AND locate wheel on hub re rotation and load forces...'BOTH' are complimentary and, share the...load/loads !
Phil
PS: Agree with Sheldon. What you need 'F1worldchamp' is a tapered seat nut of same pitch and same thread, but WITH a longer head, so that you can get to it with your fingers; Yes?
Quote from: philpot on March 10, 2011, 02:43:30 PM
What you need 'F1worldchamp' is a tapered seat nut of same pitch and same thread, but WITH a longer head, so that you can get to it with your fingers; Yes?
Got it in one.
Quote from: Sheldon McIntosh on March 10, 2011, 01:16:30 AM
dehne, this is why people swear at you. I know you are trying to help, but you end up doing the opposite. I would explain why these two posts were about ten different kinds of fail, but I know you wouldn't read it, and that you are never wrong. Oh, and since you're giving the advice, what is the situation with home-modified wheel spacers in regards to RWC and insurance companies?
sheldon i read everything, and thats correct never wrong ;D have had my cars go through roadys and they have not picked them. from what i was told at a tyre place that the laws are they are not allowed to fit them but if you do them urself its then fine, and they have not affected any thing the centre fit snug on the hub and the wheels sit on perfectly, there are ones out there which are totally different but you need to choose the correct ones if your going to modify them, thats if you ewant them there and then but you can order the correct ones and they will take a couple of days to get there.
not sure what you mean with the comment about the 156 sized bolts, may be i should of said there are 2 sizes of bolts for the 156 short and long, depending on what year model. the bolts for the suds are also the same
i hope that is better
Happy to be corrected. It was my understanding that either the studs locate the wheel or the spigot, and that both results in stress on one or more components.
What happens when a hub doesn't have a spigot? All the loads must then be carried by the studs? Just asking.....
Dont ya just love how a simple question on a forum gets totally off track and misses the original question ? :P
No, seriously though...Ok, not having a go aggie57, just that when put TSW alloys on my car originally, the tyre place didn't use spigot rings on the rims to fit my sud. Had issues re balance/vibration until requested they were put on...and presto! Problem solved. Oh, tsw rims use 60 deg taper bolt seats. Std rims all 58.1mm centre bore and tapered seat bolts. Yes, without a spigot to locate rim, all load is then taken by the bolts/studs; alone. Having both actually reduces the stresses by sharing the loads...
Right you are this time Dehne, tho suds/33/33 16v's have three possible wheel bolt sizes actually i've discovered (so far!) Sud/33 QV tele-dials use 32mm thread length; 3316v rims use 26mm; yet the TSW's when on the sud used 18mm so as not to foul behind front hub! ! These are all 'factory' alfa bolts by the way...The TSW's on the 16V are using 26's...
As for spacers, commercially made/homemade/home-fitted/home-made-fitted, for the sake of poor old (by now anyway...) f1worldchamp kinda completely off the track ( ;) ) re his original problem. Which is being able to get into the holes of a 156 teledial (gorgeous rim, reminds me of 1977 Porsche 928...) and finger tight the nuts before tightening them with a brace. And also the visual element as well of not having these lost little nuts way down the deeply recessed bolt holes...Check out speedywheels.com.au, they list a lot of shiny nuts; that might be a start. And go down to your nearest wheel place. Even your local, friendly alfa wrecker and have a chat and see the huge range of nuts there!... Maybe someone who actually has a 75 with 156 wheels would care to chip in at this point...(preferably with legal/roadworthy/insurance compliant advice) 8)
P p l e a s e !! :D
No problem philpot - I don't take these things personally at all. If my understanding is wrong or old-world that's cool.
Doing some further reading (there's lots of noise in web land as usual but as an e.g. http://forum.miata.net/vb/archive/index.php/t-40617.html and http://www.idsfa.net/miata/) it seems that a hub spigot and/or tapered nuts/bolts simply locate the wheel as it is mounted. The load once the wheel is mounted would appear to be taken across the face of the wheel / hub joint through friction generated by the torque of the nuts/bolts being correctly tightened.
Hence why spigot rings can be made from plastic - and why balance can be an issue if the wheel is balanced around the centre hole (as is the norm) but when mounted is centred by the studs/bolts.
Anyway, I'm an IT guy and a weekend car tinkerer. I'm sure there is an automotive engineer type on our board who can confirm / refute this conclusion.
A different question - kinda on-topic - the centre bore hole diameter on 156 wheels will be 58.1mm. I'm reading on alfabb.com US forums that their Milano/75 has 58.6mm spiggot/hub diameter. Hence, 156 wheels need to be slightly drilled out to fit properly.
Does this apply to Aus-spec 75s? Is the spiggot/hub 58.6mm? I was hoping to fit my unused GT 17" wheels onto the 75, but not if they require modification.
:)
Yep, on modern 156 wheels, there are 5 little tabs in the hub centre hole, these tabs can be taken off easily with a die grinder or a file.
Ah. Thanks Neil. I don't wish to bore out my GT wheels for the sake of it.
:)
thats why you use spacers so you do not need to alter anything but 1 thing is i thin k on the later 156 the off set changed, as on my 156 i put later model rims on it (still factory) but i had to buy longer studs/bolts, and these rims would not fit on the 90/75/gtv6 with out putting longer studs through the hub but it you altered the rims centre it may work but not sure on that either
Hey - just wanted to say I'm sorry if the conversation around mounting wheels seems off topic (well, it is a bit) but to put it in context over the years this is one of the area's we have had problems with at club events. Not so much in recent years but as an example back when we started going back to Phillip Island we were loosing (as in writing off) on average 1 car a meeting.
Around the same time R rated tyres became the norm as well so loads increased and wheel failures became worryingly common. I can recall one GTV being backed into the wall and totally destroyed at Phillip Island, a 105 having the centre of a rim ripped out at Calder and a 105 having a GTA alloy collapse at Winton. We also had a wheel fall off our old GT due to incorrect fitting in practice for a 6-hr way back when.
On the road it's potentially less of an issue as speeds and loads are not so high. Although personally I've had studs on another GT break, on factory wheels using standard lug nuts, just because of temperature variations after being left in the snow for a week and then being driven down the Hume.
Anyway, my point is this is an area you really want to know what you're doing if you start changing things around. Get it wrong, out on the track or at speed on country roads you get no second chances with this one. Please just be careful.
Just remember wheels are located by the SPIGOT on the hub and not by the wheel bolts or studs, the taper on the bolts \ nuts are for applying friction by means of the taper to stop the wheel bolts \ nuts from loosening off, i always use anti seize on my bolts on the 33 and 156 to stop them cold welding themselves to each other, just remember that old engineering saying i am about to make up, spigots and dowels are for accurate location, fasteners are for clamping, not locating, and make sure you use the correct length fasteners as they vary for steel \ alloy, different wheels etc, Colin.
Fascinating reading and something I have experienced first hand on this SPIGOT and STUD issue. I spent some hard hours changing bits and pieces several times to solve a wheel wobble problem which occurs at high speed of >100km/h. In the end, it was the spigot locating principle which I forgot about to apply.
The problem arised from trying to use spacers to space out wheel to clear caliper, once spaced out, the wheel centre hub hole did not locate onto spigot anymore, hence misalignment. Did not solve problem in time and went back to original set up.
Anyway, Colin, perhaps you can tell me, I have wheels where the centre hub hole is slightly bigger than the spigot, what would you suggest to solve this to prevent the wobbles and to locating them correctly.
I was thinking of having a spacer made which locates onto the hub spigot, and an outer spigot the size of the wheel centre hole to locate the new wheel. But could be kind of costly as they need to be made.
Any other ideas?
Neil
Hi Neil, there are a multitude of already available spigot rings out there if various thickness', a 'Plethora' even...try googling them, wheel manufacturers and check out tyre/wheel places... u might be able to cobble something simple before going the custom machine route. The spigot rings on my TSW wheels are made of alloy by the way. As an aside, these South African made rims survived being T-boned at 50 k's plus, transfering the impact forces to the axle and rear shock tower. Run true, no damage, balanced properly. A very well made brand of rim, even after 17 years use! The momo's that were on the sud originally didn't survive lapping Phillip Island without cracking one of their 16 spokes...
Yes, colcol, thats what the gist of my input was aimed at. OE suds/33's use 'BOTH' methods for a reason! Yes, I also use a thin film of lanox to make tightening the tapered seat bolts smoother and easier; and removal also.
Dont' have a prob of topics going off message as long as the original question has been addressed. Conversations can grow into very interesting, educational and somtimes humourous/infuriating beasts !
This is a serious subject as getting could cause a massive car accident, so if you are in doubt, don't do it, if your wheels are bigger than the spigot you may be able to shrink some reducing sleeves into the centre of the wheel to provide a snug fit on the hub spigot, but this would most likely be illegal, with spacers, they may be sound for wheel location, once again they are most likely illegal, and spacers to a certain extent add to the distance away from the hub the bolts and wheels nuts are which causes a certain amount of flexing which can lead to loosening off the fasteners or complete breakage, with catostrophic results, as for Suds and 33's, the bolts for the alloys are not interchangeable due to differing lengths, put 33 bolts on a Sud and it will not go anywhere because the bolts will foul on the suspension, use Sud bolts on a 33 and they will be slightly short which means they will not be fully engageing the whole length of the thread, which means they will be more prone to thread stripping and loosening off issues, Colin.
Thanks for all the replies guys, some good info and good reading.
I was under the impression that putting the teledials on the 75 was a fairly straight forward and oft done thing. Apparently not. :(
I have done a test fit of these and the centre hub appeared to line up perfectly, as did the bolts. The only issue ( I thought) was that I would be needing longer wheel nuts.