Hi Guys
Now that I have a repaired Dual relay (see other post) I ASSUMED the GTV6 would fire up and all would be forgiven.
I was dreaming.
So during my research to repair the relay I found a web page a guy called Greg http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Ljetronic.htm
Which tells all about the GTV6 fuel injection system - good thing too as I needed it.
So here is what happens now.
I have fuel, I have fuel pump, I know this because I can hear it start.
Turn the starter and the starter kicks in and the engine fires briefly. If you start again you will get a second kick.
Any touch of the accelerator and it stops dead and you have to wait a minute or so before a second attempt, and it kicks again and then stops.
So reading through all the info Greg referes a couple of times to the "Dreaded Starts then stalls" issue.
Congratulations Shane, this is what you have.
So it sounds to me like the cold start injector is working, and there is obviously some sort of timer (maybe part of the ecu ) which will only let this fire once and then it assumes the engine will kick in.
Things I have tried.
Checked hoses, I have relatively new silicon ones so they feel and look o.k. I did find the consatina hose to the Air Flow Meter wasnt on properly so put that one correctly - all excited - no luck.
Checked earths, found the earth from the plenum to the engine was broken, so repaired that - all excited - no luck.
I found that MOST of my fuel connectors to the injectors were loose and one of them was leaking !!! - tightened them up - all excited - no luck.
By this stage I was getting pretty pissed off and the Ducati was having a chuckle in the corner so I threw a cleaning rag at it and now I need to clean the tank again :-(
I read the bit about the AAV and realised I had never cleaned it so off it came, cleaned it out, chucked it in the freezer, it sort of opened but not fully so maybe an issue - comments from anyone ??
I also noticed that a couple of the fingers inside the connector for the throttle sensor were missing so maybe the top wire is not connecting properly - likely to be the cause anyone ??
For some reason it will not fire more that using the cold start injector. I checked the other part of the relay I fixed and volts are getting sent to the Injectors.
So I am at a loss at the moment, any ideas would be welcome.
Thanks in advance.
how are the injectors maybe a couple are blocked/knacked this can cause a car to stall have had it happen before in a engine transplate for one of my old 90's engine ran great before the did not work after put clean injector in and all was good again, maybe something to look at if not done already
Cool Mate.
Have never had them out, they could be blocked. I've seen where the guy talks about testing the cold start one so I imagine it would be the same. Not sure if you can just pull them out and clean them and put them back ??
Ta
Good tip MAte.
Will do.
Shane,
The cold start injector is controlled by the "Thermo time switch" which is mounted on the thermostat housing on the driver's side. It is supposed to disable the cold start injector when the temperature reaches 30 to 40 C. See Greg Gordon's tuning guide for how to test the sucker.
Throttle switch sounds a worry. Should be three contacts on that. If you carefully move the throttle by hand you'll hear a faint click. That's a switch telling the ECU that you aren't at idle anymore. The ECU then works out injector duration based on all the sensors. If you keep moving the throttle, a bit after half way you'll hear a second click, which is the flat out setting. Greg Gordon's tuning guide explains it all in more detail.
If contacts are missing off the connector then it could be the middle stage and when you first touch the accelerator the ECU knows you're not idling but isn't getting the right signals and does the wrong thing. Those connectors are pretty robust so maybe one of the contacts is just bent.
Good Luck,
AL.
I will check out these clicks tonight Mate.
I did read something last night which sort of said if you pull this connector off the car should idle. I think it was a BMW preso on the bosch FI which is the same as the GTV6 one.
Anyway I will let you know and at a pinch I might even gerryrig the wiring to bypass my potentially dodgy connection.
catch ya
Shane
I actually drove my car for about an half an hour with the throttle connector unplugged, after working on the car the day before. The most noticeable effect was when backing right off after acceleration the motor would stumble, almost stalling before quickly recovering. It must have been mostly using the AFM. Popped the bonnet to find the connector flapping around.
AL.
Shane,
Are you sure that there is 12 volts getting to the double relay? It comes directly off the back of the fuse box and not having that connected will show exactly the symptoms you describe.
Alister
I am pretty sure.
After spending a couple of hours mucking around with a rebuilding the relay over the weekend I measured the 12 volt input to the injector relay points, and also the output and there was 12 volts there.
I will recheck tonight and I will make sure I can hear the second relay click and see the volts.
I might also see if I can get volts on the injectors. The cold start one obviously has volts but this comes from the new relay I instaled, not the second one.
Thanks for the prompter.
Catch ya
Shane
I am not sure if you have covered this as I haven't read all the advice but I had an issue with my GTV6 which turned out to be the inertia switch. I bipassed it and it ran with no problems.
just a quiock thought shane does the car run with the cold start plug not cliped on mine stuffed up and sort of had the same probs cant remember as its been 3 years or so but i just pulled clip of and have not ran cold start since then maybe same prob for you
Thanks for all of the advice so far Guys.
Bit side tracked tonight but went out just then to discover the Alfa Fairy has not fixed my car - bugger - maybe if i leave an espresso on the bonnet tonight I may get lucky :-)
So firstly, normal start, still the same starts runs for a few seconds and dies. Does this about three times in a row, must be because it is colder tonight - yesterday it would only do it twice in a row.
So firstly disconnected the power connector from the cold start injector - now it didnt kick at all so this proves that the only reason it's starting at all is due to the cold start injector :-)
Put that back on and now disconnected the throttle sensor connector, just incase a broken wire means dodgy stuff goes back to the ECU and causes the prob - no luck same symptoms, starts then dies.
Hopefully tomorrow night I will get a bit more time and will do the inertia switch bypass (any ideas where it lives), and pull out the AAV again and set this for full open.
Catch ya
Shane
OK Guys
Getting excited now.
When I pulled the Dual relay off, it came off a number of times. I tried to keep the wiring in it's little groups so I didnt mix things up.
Now, when I was doing a check on the second relay, just to be sure to be sure, i noticed that the colour codes seemed out of whack with the wiring diagram that I have.
In fact it looks like some of the wires are on the wrong connectors and this would certainly cause my issue.
Now I am trying to be cautious, if I did stuff up which wire is on which connector I am cool with that but I dont want to misswire anything and blow the ecu for example.
So I will probably just meter out the wires and make sure the diag and the markings on the outside of the relay are correct, put the wiring as per the diagram I have and "hopefully" this wil make it run.
Catch ya
Shane
Sounds like you're on the right trail Shane.
Quick Update.
Did some rewiring and I am now able to get consistent crap running for a longer period of time. Thought I had positioned the relay wires so I couldn't stuff it up but looks like I have.
The benefit of this is I will meter out and create a map of the wiring and also what each one does and how the dual relay works so hopefully this will help someone in the future.
I will post the info when I finish. In the meantime if someone with a 84 - 86 GTV6 would possibly post a photo of the underside of the dual realy that may help. I could see how someone elses is wired.
Catch ya
Shane
Shane,
Careful with the colours of the wires. I've found some around the front of the engine bay that have faded, particularly the stripes. It's not until I traced the wire back along the bundle (hey that pink wire changes to grey!) that I worked out what was going on. Although probably not likely near the double relay as I suspect heat is the issue.
W.R.T. the double relay circuit - have you checked out the American ALFA site? There's an electrical section and there is a fair chance someone has already done the circuit.
Had a thought, page 20 of the L-Jetronic Manual from "Craig's Place":(//)
Thanks for the info Al.
Had a frustrating night tonight where I thought it would be a reconnect and worky but I have gone backwards.
Now I am back to no fuel pump when you trigger the AFM switch..
On one connector there is a violet wire, looking at the diag I am assuming this should have 12volts, it comes from the ignition switch and is joined to the +ve side of a diode. There is no volts there, and also no volts on the AFM switch.
I think by looking at the diags that the volts for the AFM switch comes from the ECU, but if the ECU gets crap input it is likely to have a crap output.
I will do more reading and tracing etc.
As I've always said to newbees in IT who I've worked with " I hope you have lots of problems because thats how you learn heaps. If everything goes the way it should you learn nothing".
I am enjoying learning about the Fuel injection on the Beast but I think I've leanred enough - come on Alfa Fairy - throw me a frickin bone here :-)
Update some time.
have you tried another relay at all, im sure someone is close to you and could pop over for a quick try,
Good point. I've got one I won't be using for at least 6 months, come and grab it from Brunswick if you want Shane.
Hi Guys
It is defo not a stuffed relay. I have a quick and simple method for testing these and mine is doing all the right things (thinking about building a little test rig for them).
Tail chasing is something I do very well so trying to avoid it.
One quick dumb question. Docos referr to the ECU as living behind a panel in the passenger side. Is the ECU the metal cased lump living on the pass side under the bonnet just near the coil, or is that something else.
Thanks
Hi Shane,
the ECU is mounted under a panel next to the accel pedal inside the car, looks like this:
(http://www.dragtimes.com/images-classifieds-large/Alfa-Romeo-GTV6-Bosch-ECU-Australian-Spec-GTV-6-for-sale_180599864679.jpg)
the little one near the coil is the spark ECU (I think)
Good luck ! I had a GTV6 for a while - and actually have some respect for the old L-Jet... but a 'will not start when hot' and 'always rich on the overrun' finally beat me, and I MegaSquirted it :)
But that V6 howl in the domain tunnel - I still dream of it....
Come to think of it - mine had a switch when I bought it under the dash to bypass the tachimetric part of the dual-relay and power the fuel pump. I pulled the relay down and cleaned the points and got it going again - but the switch was there, just in case :)
Shane - do you have access to the factory engine manual? I have one so if you want I can copy the relevant pages and email them to you. PM me if interested.
Alister
Thanks Aggie but do have all the manuals (bought a Car Disk when I got the car)
Right so there really IS a panel and ecu hidden behind it, i will have to open the panel and show it a bit of love.
Speaking of showing love I have put a good photo of my GTV6 as my wallpaper on my phone and relagated the Ducati photos to another place - hopefully this might send out some good vibes and a howling I will be soon.
On a serious note, there is a connector under the steering column which has a thick dark wire and a violet wire which runs down to the Dual relay. According to the wiring diagram this connects to the "roof lamp timer" and the ignition switch.
If anyone could check if there is 12volts on this violet when the igniotn is on that would be great. My belief is this is needed to signla the ECU and then the ECu will provide volts to the AFM switch so the fuel pump will run .
Catch ya
Shane
Quote from: shane wescott on January 20, 2011, 08:35:18 PM
hopefully this might send out some good vibes and a howling I will be soon.
If that doesn't work - try the opposite tack - leave the Angle grinder on the front seat of the GTV6 overnight.... ;)
Right so that would mean that if I stick a mmeter on it and turn the key to start I should see 12V.
Excellent Choderboy, that is exactly what I needed to know.
Pulled off the plenum today, just to make sure all the fuel lines to the injectros were proper tight, and metered out the wiring to make sure I have the injector wires on the right connectors on the dual relay - all good.
Trap for non observent people like me - whe you take off the throttle cable to get the plenum off, the little arm rocks back and sits down in the area where the injectors are.
If you aren't observant (that would be me) and you just pop the plenum back on and carefully tighten everything up - you notice when you get to put the throttle cable on that the little arm is stick and the plenum needs to come off again.
No worries, I enjoy doing things a second time just to make sure I know how they are done :-)
I think I am getting closer. Even pulled out the computer today, smelt funny so had a look and nothing appears to be burnt out so that is a good sign.
Again thank for the help guys, and the angle grinder is staying where it is at the moment - talk to me next week if the Beast is still playing up :-)
Success - well sort of.
This morning I put the refitted the plenum so I could get the trottle cable connected.
Then I put a MM on the violet wire which should fire the relay for the fuel pump when the ignition is in start mode - all cool volts there while cranking.
No fuel pump though.
Given that there is two things needed for a relay to fire 12v and an earth i thought i would chec the earth.
So I disconnected pin 85 off the dual relay and hooked the pin directly to earth.
Cracked the key and bingo - the Beast lives.
So my theory here is that in my stupidity when chekcing the wiring on the dual relay I did swap the wires on 85 and 86 because I was convinced I had them on arse about. Looking at the diag that would put 12v onto one pin of the ECU which normally puts out an earth - so I suspect I now have an issue inside the ecu.
I am trying to locate a circuit diag of the ecu so If anyone knows where one lives please let me know. I am 'hoping" it is a simple output which basically switches an earth on if the ignition is turned on and isnt hooked directly to a specialised chip.
So I believe my original fault was the blown coil in the dual relay (fixed by a $7 relay and a bit of solder), and the rest of my isses have been caused by me messing up which wire goes on which connector on the dual relay.
I agree Choderboy that mucking around with additional things will generally make a small job snowball into a much larger job, but that's been my life with cars and bikes. The positive of that is you generally fix a few more things and there are less future issues )in theory) and you learn a lot :-)
Next project is fix the speedo on the Ducati - sounds simple but I have to remove the front forks, swap them over, reposition and remount the brake calipers, and refit the front tyre just so I can avoid speeding fines.
All thanks to the previous owner who for some unknown reason refitted everything arse about which caused the speedo to work in reverse, and everythime you go for a ride the engine gets younger :-)
Catch ya
Shane
Quick Update.
Nothing to lose so pulled out the ECU to check it out. Traced out pin 28, which is the one I stuffed up, and found a burnt out PCB track :-) This explains the "brown" smell from the insode of the ECU.
Had to desolder a capacitor to get the track, rebuilt it, put the ECU back in and WHOOO HOOO it is now fixed and up and running :-)
Had a dicky spark plug which was dirty so pulled that cleaned it and she is now puring like a kitten.
Problem is I've had a gutful of the GTV6 over the last week so it can wait for a decent run. Might even take the Ducati out for little spin later just to piss it off.
But then again, there's probably nothing more dangerous than a GTV6 scorned.
I hope this will help someone in the future, I've certainly learnt heaps about the FI system from you guys, so thanks for the help and I will see you on a club run soon.
CAtch ya
Shane
Shane
It has been a pleasure reading your trials and tribulation through it all and all the help and assistances you have received. What a wonderful forum, though I have contributed nothing.
It seems like a romantic comedy and all ending in happiness, well done and keep up the good work and looking forward to your next chapter.
Neil
No worries Neil, glad you enjoyed it, I have certainly learnt heaps thanks to the Alfa Brains Trust.
Always happy to entertain but no, I don't stuff up deliberately just to make things more interesting :-)
For those who have never seen in side an L-Jetronic ECU here is a picky with my burnt out track circled in red. I am assuming this track goes to an earth hence the burn out when I connected it to 12 V and seemingly no other damage.
A couple of hours was all I could manage. I had to go out and give it another start, just to make sure I wasn't dreaming, and then had to take it out for a run.
The Beast is purring with all the glory the wonderful V6 can muster. It is idling MUCH better than I remember, probably due to all the little bits I did over the last two weeks.
Slight pinging under acceleration, that was there before and probably means I need to check the timing.
Cough and farted and spat out some smoke when I first took off, so my support car was left in a cloud of barbequed bugs and spiders. But after that she was flying.
I think the GTV6 has just thrown down the gauntlet to the Ducati - cop that Two Wheeler :-)
Catch ya
Shane