Anyone out there had experience in bringing back to life AIR CONDITIONING in a GTV6 from the 80s. I am about to get quotes and diagnose what needs to be done and would like some input in what is involved from owners that have gone through the procedure. I am guessing my air con has not been working for years. CIAO and thanks for any input
I will be interested to see how you go with that, I have been thinking about talking to an air con specialist to see if my GTV6 can be up graded. Mine has been tested for leaks and re-gassed and it blows out chilled air. In temperatures above 30 when the car has been left in the sun it goes nowhere near bringing the interior temperature of the car down. I think its a combination of factors – the air con hardware is dated, there is a lot of glass and a lot of the interior of the car is black.
I took our 156 to an air con specialist because my wife is threatening to sell it because the air con is poor to average (fair call).
The technician who tested it said it was working efficiently, the air at the vents was 4.2 degrees. He said this was the benchmark temperature for car air conditioning. The things that are working against the 156 are leather seats (they absorb a lot of heat), lots of black in the interior (once again absorbs heat) and, I think, poorly considered vent design. I thinks the vents look good but the designers put form before function. They just don't direct any air directly at the driver. I guess in an ideal world Alfa Romeo would deliver both form and function, maybe they have reached that point with the MiTo, 159 etc.
Anyway, I of course love both my Alfas despite their shortcomings!
Cheers
Alan
Re aircon, i went through a similar process when i restored a Sud, the problems and cost are big, lets start at the beggining, up until about 1992 all airconditioner used a refrigerant gas called R12, that had been around for years, but was very bad for the ozone layer, so a new gas was developed called R134, which wasn't as good as R12 as it cooled less and ran hotter, this gas is not a 'drop in' gas as the tx valves will not work with the different temperatures and and it won't mix with the existing oils which are mineral based and also the rubber hoses won't contain the new type refrigerants as they are finer and
leak through the pores of the hoses. I ended up buying a new compressor, new hoses, evaporator, condensor that were R134 compliant, so i could it gassed up without any supply problems of obsolete gas, and i was sure it would work, my conversion cost about $1200, about 7 years ago with me doing all the labour, you could use the existing condensor and evaporator, but you would have to get them thoroughly flushed out and leak tested and you would have to get a new tx valve and replace all the 'o' rings, don't be fooled by some of these replacement gases used by backyarders, sure they may cool, but they will mix with the oils and alloys in the system and corrode the innards of the aircon system, some of the orifices of tx valves are as small as ,1mm, actually you can LPG or Lighter gas to run air conditioners,and the problem is not so much the fire problem, its the corrosion problem, Colin.
Thanks Col for your insight,am not prepared to pump money like that into air con,so ill just get it looked it and by the sounds of it,(WINDOWS WOUND DOWN AND SUNROOF OPEN IS THE WAY TO GO) ciao.
All those years ago when i was trying to work out what to do, the main problem was the unavailability of the R12 gas, a couple of aircon specialists gave me a wink and said if i was to go to a certain place then they would be able to charge my system, but to go there, but not phone them, as they beleived they could still source the now illegal R12, but i read that in some parts of America it is illegal to register a car with the R12, and the rumor was, it was going to happen in Australia, but never did, but the main tipping point in airconditioning the Sud was bizzare, i was driving home from work one night and a bloody WASP flew in the open window and in my attemps to get it out of my car, i nearly hit 3 other cars, but the little bugger ended up biting me on the finger, no more windows down for me!, Colin.
Hi Lombardi,
Currently in the process of upgrading/ getting my air-cond to work and can back up Colin's comments.
Originally, the GTV6 ran a piston type compressor, which can be substituted with a rotary type from a later model, such as a 90. Allow $300- $400 for a good second hand unit
If you use a rotary type, the mounting points for the hoses are in different positions, and the original hoses wont reach. New hoses/ adaptors are required. Allow $150- $200. Fittings size is not that common- you're air- cond man may have to track them down.
This is where I am at to date, but will need to do:
* new evaporator
* system flush and leak check
* change more hoses and fittings
* re-gas (using current spec gas)
Probably another $400- $500 here. My air-cond thermo was not working, so add $200- $250 for a replacement.
There is also a 50/50 chance that the valve arrangement (tech term) up under the dash wont work properly and will have to be replaced.
So all up this will cost well over a grand- and then some. But as it doesn't take much for these cars to heat up, I am willing to pay for some comfort
RL
+1 on replacing the old piston York compressor with a rotary sanden unit - I did this on my old GTV6 - more efficient and less vibration in the car when running. Changed from R12 to the newer R134 stuff at the same time - had to replace the dryer unit (canister thing with the window in the top), the TX valve, seriously flush the system to get the old oils out completely and then gas up and look for leaks. I think only some short rigid line extensions were made to make the hoses reach the new compressor. Col's point about the hose material being porous also rings a bell - but at the time we left the old hoses in with a 'see how the charge holds and replace as necessary' attitude on the whole thing. I sold the car 2 years later, and had had the charge topped up slightly once in the interim - I always assumed it was the 2nd hand pump - but perhaps the hoses were at fault.
If you can find a sanden compressor that's been run on R134 previously - it might save you having to replace all the seals in it.
The point above about the GTV6 having lots of glass at shallow angles is spot on - difficult car to keep cool, I'd recommend having the windows tinted as well to keep as much UV / Heat out that way too - it made the difference in my car - about $400 from memory at tint-a-car
I think in the US - some of the cars that era came with a 'Tropic Air' aftermarket AC mod that doubled the output of the AC (I think by using a second evaporator ?)
Cheers,
All aircon compressors have pistons, the older type have 2 cylinders, where the new 'rotary' compressors have 5 cylinders and instead of a crankshaft, they have a swash plate that makes it more balanced, i left out the fact previously that your have to replace the receivor dryer, the round black can with the sight glass at the top, this should be done at every aircon service as this acts as a filter and the silica gel in it, traps any moisture in the system, also all the fittings on the ends of the hoses for R134 are 'o' ring type and all the fittings for R12 are taper type and they leak and won't hold R134, but are ok for R12, some times if a leak is suspected, then when it is 'gassed up' a tracer dye can be put in to show up any leaks, but a licenced aircon technition should check the system for leaks as part of the service, with a electronic leak detector, Colin.
Quote from: colcol on January 04, 2011, 11:17:17 AM
they have a swash plate that makes it more balanced,
I didn't know they had a swash plate - (just like torpedoes = win) that definitely makes them a necessary upgrade :) 'Flood tubes two through four Mr Smee !'
QuoteI thinks the vents look good but the designers put form before function. They just don't direct any air directly at the driver. I guess in an ideal world Alfa Romeo would deliver both form and function, maybe they have reached that point with the MiTo, 159 etc.
Just got a 2002MY 147 with the more modern aircon outlets, rotary surround with and directionally adjusted vent -good size and as amy other half said, an Alfa with decent vents that can be adjusted to get air to actually blow on you. I understand the dash is the same on the GT>
The car has duel zone (left and right side) climate control and it works a treat.
Much improved from the 156/GTV and Spider.
Lombardi,
I don't know how many times a I have had this discussion but I know it's heaps. I am going to be brutally honest and say, you can do whatever you like to a GTV6 or GTV2.0 to get good air conditioning but unless you completely redesign and remake the ENTIRE system for Australian heat loads,it will be marginal at best. Here's why:-
1 This is THE main problem but everybody overlooks it. The evaporator is too small. The cabin fan is too small. The air speed is insufficient. The air circulation inside the evaporator unit is all wrong and causes very little heat scrubbing because it uses the path of least resistance which means it is hopelessly inefficient on top of being way too small. The fan is a draw type instead of a push type. This partly is the reason for the poor flow path but has the added problem of making a lot of noise.
2 What little chill the sytem makes, it is very badly reticulated. You cannot get a wrap around your face cool as it all comes from one point source that is handy for chilling knee caps but that's about all. There are no ducts behind the dashboard like in modern cars to deliver lots of air at good speed to where it's needed so even if your system can deliver 4-5*C, due to a lack of air speed and distribution, it is still crap.
3 To cool a car down, the sytem needs to absorb all the heat that is already in it from being parked in the sun, overcome additonal heat from the engine and the exhaust system plus your body heat. To do this the system needs lots of air volume movement around the evaporator unit which it doesnt get so at best it may keep a cool car cool but doesn't have the capacity to chill a car that is already hot inside.
So I go back to my original point which is that to make the air condioner work in any Alfetta, you have to re-engineer everything and I mean everything !! Condesor sizes, evaporator sizes, fan sizes, compressor types, placement of ducting and air registers, noise levels, and last but not least HEAT LOADS !!.
Been there...my reworked custom system with all new parts cost $2750.00
My advice: Open the wallet or open the windows.
Don't piss about fixing this or that cause in the end in real terms it's just moving deck chairs..
Here's some work I did on an Alfetta Sportiva. Note the complete new evap unit rated at 18,000 BTU's under the dash and the two new dash centre outlets. The original side outlets were fitted with insulated ducting to give a wrap around chill at face level.
My aircon never worked on my GTV6.
I pulled most of it off when I replaced the timing belts and water pump because it was in the way and was pissing me off.
Taking the car to work in summer on a hot day it probably not an option, but the wind in your hair, sunroof open so you can hear the roar and get sunburn on your bald spot - these things beat icicles on your nose and $2000 odd dollars less in your pocket.(IMHO)
I do agree with MD, these things are not designed for our climate, compare the heater on a european car to an aussie car, some of the euro cars i've been in can make toast on the way to work !!
As a contrast though the 75 i have has an excellent aircon which is super chilled - go figure, maybe the previous owners already did the work.
catch ya
Shane
We are on the same page Shane.
The reason for the 75 being better is because it is a totally revised system. Different compressor, bigger condensor.The evaporator is larger and guess what? The fan is now a push type and behid the evaporator pack instead of at the front of it as in the GTV. They learned something over the next decade. I got a 75 too that has a well serviced air system but I wouldn't rate it as really being 100% up to the job.
In Queensland and especially on the coast it gets very humid and you need a good air con system to overcome these constraints. The 75 makes better chill but still lacks air speed, air volume and air distribution to match the systems in locally made cars. I have a BA Falcon wagon as my service vehicle. Station wagons have a much bigger heat load than sedans. On top of that, it has ducted air con to the rear passengers. It has no trouble providing and excellent conditioned air to the whole car on the hottest days and yet it has a small piss fart rotary compressor. So the lesson here is, the most important parts are the evaporator, condensor, distribution fan capacities and of course delivery points where you need them.
I do not however recommend selling the GTV and buying the Ford on the basis of good air conditioning 'cause the boat ride alone would generate more heat under the collar than any air con. system could handle. ;D
Alfisti, thanks for your valuable feedback, think i'll go with winding and opening as the way to go.ciao
For what it's worth, I'm fitting the heater box out of a 90 and using the 90 compressor on my 3.0l GTV6 project.
I use a 90 Super ('87) and a GTV (84) as alternative dailies, but as has been pointed out the GTV a/c is woeful.
Fitting the 90 heater box requires a set of the mounting bars used in sedans. (I've seen them in 90s, Alfettas and Giuliettas)
I am hoping that the 90 setup will fix all those problems, as the a/c in my 90 Super can actually get too cold! A/c in the 90s that I have run always worked well.
The fact that the 90 heater box has better airflow and the fan behind the evap. and heater core make it more efficient and less noisy and hopefully will overcome the glasshouse effect.
Just by the by, the a/c lines and the return heater hose go through the firewall on opposite sides, GTV/6 to 90, but the holes are already there, because (I'm assuming here) all those vehicles used the same firewall pressing, so it had to be usable for all types.
Steve
Adelaide
I went right through my the AC in my Giulietta 2 years ago, new hoses, TX valve and drier, new Sanden compressor, evaporator and condensor cleaned out with dry Nitrogen. Cost about $1000. Had to pull the dash out which would also be expensive job if you couldn't do it yourself.
It now works great, not as good as a Honda but plenty cool enough for the hottest days.
Many years ago my AC guy modified my heater box by making some more holes on the side, he said it allowed more air to get into the box. While I had it out I made identical holes in the other side and the air flow is greatly increased.
I noticed my parts car has the same mod so it must be common for Alfas.
I'll try to add some photos.
Pete
RE aircon, about 25 years ago when my Alfa 33 was newish, it had rubbish aircon that was a locally installed, the reason it was local was that fitted in Australia was about $1200 [1986], compared to a factory one installed on the production line about $3000, one day i was at an auto electrician buying a battery and he asked me how i liked the 33, i said its ok apart from rubbish aircon, he had a look and said, its a poor quality local one, and that he used to install, genuine ones that are a lot better, but couldn't make enough money doing them, i asked him about the Italian aircons and it sounded a lot better than the one i had, i said to him get me one in and i will have a look at it and if it is any good, i will buy it, if its no good here is $50 for your trouble, he got it in, i looked at it and paid $1000 on the spot, instead of freezing up due to lack of airflow it just kept putting out COLD AIR and it blew out of 5 vents, floor and screen, instead of just 3 vents in the centre, he told me that all the Alfa's of that time, 33's Alfetta's and Guillieta's had pathetic aircons due to the fact they were fitted locally, my aircon took me a month to fit, 2 hours at nights and weekends and it was about the best thing i ever did to my car, Colin.
Please pardon my ignorance-but whilst having a peak at my air con witha torch,noticed that the air con has a red valve and blue one,i might be wrong but does the blue one denotes its been overhauled previously with new type gas--looks rather newish down there-but suffice to say,does not blow cold air-am interested to see what the experts have to say,or maybe i am way off-heres hoping.Ciao
Re Aircon, if you have an old system up until the early 90's then it uses the old R12 gas, check on the compressor for 2 nipples that are externally threaded and are both the same size, if you have the newer system that uses the new R134 gas the nipples are usually on the pipes and the nipples [or charging ports as they are known as] are not externally threaded but have got grooves on the outside of the ports for use with quick release charging hoses, like a miniture airline or garden hose fitting, these port sizes are slightly different sizes to avoid wrong connection of the hoses with would result in major damage to aircon components, you may still have a R12 system that uses "replacement" gases with differing quality and suitability, Colin.
minipete,
That modification to the evap/heater box will simply result in drawing more air from the cabin around in circles and further reduce the draft of the air from the central duct over the evaporator coils where this air needs to go in order to scrub out heat (make chill).
I do not advocate doing this at all.
If one is not a purists and you are desperate for air conditioning but there is not enough room under the dash for new equipment, it is possible to do a radical departure from the norm.
Install the evaporator in the boot including the fans and reticulate the ducting from the rear to the front catering for rear seat pasengers along the way.
This is not new and was a practice done in the "old" days. My Berlina had one similar.It lacked proper ducting but it sure made a lot of chill albeit with poor circulation.
Aircon in older cars is never as good as newer cars, so we have to expect lower standards. The design as mentioned in many posts, is just not what it is now. Today, climate control in cars is a BIG design job, everyone wants a car that'll get the cabin down to 20c on a 40c day, if your car won't do it, it won't sell. If you can get an older A/C system to be tolerable on a hot day, it's a good effort!
Aside from all the design constraints older systems had (not factory fitted to all cars, so compromised design of components etc), many small issues can often creep into older car A/C systems, and none of them directly involve the evaporator or gas system itself.
The biggest problem I've seen and rectified on many older cars I've owned, has been incorrectly operating air vents and selector flaps. Even a slight bleed of heated air from the heater core into the air path over the A/C evaporator (or blending into the cool air after evaporator) will significantly reduce efficiency of the whole system, as will control knobs with incorrectly adjusted cables/ vacuum hose leaks etc. Air leaks around blend doors etc are also a big problem, trying to get max cooling usually means recirculating cabin air, so you are cooling air that's already been cooled a little. If the recirc door is blending outside air, again, less efficient. The same can be said for A/C systems that shut off coolant flow with valves, check the valve is fully closing.
There are many very good older A/C system gases available now and all the shops know what needs to be done for correct gas retrofits (not like in the 90's, when it was a replace EVERYTHING mentality), so go ahead and ask at a good A/C workshop. There are also plenty of retrofit kits available off the shelf for older cars that these specialists can now easily order too.
And always have a dye put into the system, it makes those pesky leaks very easy to find (and there WILL be leaks that are missed, it's the nature of an old high pressure gas system).
Yes i was right,just spoke to the air con specialist--a blue and red valve does mean air con accepts new gas--booked in for this pm--will let u know how i go,i got to tell u any cold air will do,the humidity in syd is stifling.CIAO
Quote from: MD on January 08, 2011, 09:25:35 PM
That modification to the evap/heater box will simply result in drawing more air from the cabin around in circles and further reduce the draft of the air from the central duct over the evaporator coils where this air needs to go in order to scrub out heat (make chill).
I do not advocate doing this at all.
I've had my Giulietta since 1986 and put up with pathetic AC for 7 or 8 years till this mod was done. They said the system could blow a lot more than it's ability to suck air into the box. I realise it increases the amount of air that is recirculated. It doubled the cooling ability of my system and I was very happy with it (still happy after 17 years).
He also said that when using AC I should always be on recirculate or the system has to work too hard.
Pete
minipete,
Just to kick this along a bit, please explain how a total short circuit of the intended draw through of the chiller coil pack (evap unit) will create more cool given that the fan is now drawing cabin air instead of cabin air over the evap. coils.
I trust you have had the "heater" box apart and have seen the posiition of the evap coils and the heater coils as they are sandwiched together and the relative position of the fan and path location of the intended air path.
It is a given that airconditioning is a recirculated practice and even ducted systems in buildings recirculate up to 95%of the air-nothing new there. Domestic split systems compeltely recirculate all conditioned air.
BTW. An air con. system that has worked at the same temp for 17years without fail has got to be a first. I need to know the details of the workshop that installed it 'cause I'm their very next customer.
I am fortunate enough to have a qualified air-con mechanic as my father. My Alfetta GTV air-con was always, as Clarkson once said: "like an asthmatic breathing through a straw"). We put R134a in for a while, but it did also leak very quickly through the pores of the hoses. When I installed the TS engine he overhauled the existing system. We didn't change too many components but cleaned the system thoroughly (cleaned the drier with petrol etc) and put new oil in. We also also put a different refrigerant in - SP34E. It is 95% 134a and 5% hydro-carbon. It will work without requiring major modifications to the rest of your system and delivers very cold air. It also hasn't leaked out through the pores like 134a did although it has only been a year since the conversion. This sort of work could be done for less money than some of mods mentioned previously but I would still recommend getting someone qualified to do some of the work as you will probably need to vac the system first.
Quote from: MD on January 10, 2011, 01:38:17 PM
Just to kick this along a bit, please explain how a total short circuit of the intended draw through of the chiller coil pack (evap unit) will create more cool given that the fan is now drawing cabin air instead of cabin air over the evap. coils.
I am no expert so am not in a position to explain it. When the mod was done it improved the AC a lot. That was good enough for me.
Quote
BTW. An air con. system that has worked at the same temp for 17years without fail has got to be a first. I need to know the details of the workshop that installed it 'cause I'm their very next customer.
I didn't infer that it went for 17 years without being serviced, only that the improvement had had no ill effect on the system in that time.
I can't really add any more.
Pete