Has anyone experienced worn cam lobes after 60000K. Car is a 2.0JTS. Previous owner neglected regular oil changes.
I have been told that the main problem is that the cams don't sit in a bath of oil when the engine is turned off as the with V6 cams.
So the damage is done at start up when the cams are dry for about 10seconds till oil is pumped up to cover them.
My mechanic has suggested an Lucas brand additive that will help oil bond to the camshafts.
Any further suggestions, would be grateful.
I will never forget going to a well known Alfa specialist to pick their brains before I bought a 156.
When the subject of the conversation turned to the JTS he showed me a whole shelf full of camshafts with some VERY worn lobes.
No doubt the result of poor maintenance. What was odd was the apparent ramdomness of the wear, on lobe ok the one right next to it HALF worn away!!!
Alan
yes this is common, and a good topic for discussion.
it is clear that lubrication is an issue, but higher quality materials and hardening can help... the randomness of lobe wear can be explained by the oil passages if one is blocked... altho cyl one seems to be more an issue than others (tho 3cyl has happened, others could too)... at least you have some chance of spotting cly1 with a good led torch and small wand mirror
inspecting oil is also obvious, but that doesn't mean it hasn;t run dry at some point before inspection.
personally, just my preference, I always perfer flow to any other characteristic in an oil, and for a 2.0 JTS i would still presist with 10w-40 myself.
THIS IS JUST AN OPINION OF WHAT I WOULD USE. ALFA SPEC IS 10w-60 FOR THE 2.0 JTS. IF IN DOUBT, REFER TO MANUFACTURER SPEC
the reason for my view is as far as i can see the blocks b/w the TS and JTS is common as is the oil pump. Nothing that would make a difference IMHO has changed, but alfa spec'd 10w-40 for the TS and a much thicker 10w-60.
10w-60 is much thicker than 10w-40, yes even its cold start viscosity is thicker!
I personally think alfa changed to the heavier spec to appease new car buyers as the TS was slammed for oil consumption, and blowing smoke with relatively low km engines... the ring tolerances on the jts pistons, which are different, may be even looser.
IMO if your jts can get away with 10w-40 (i.e. doesn't smoke and not excessive consumption), i'd use that and keep up with maintenance far ahead of schedule. Much worse than 'wrong' oil viscosity is definately lack of oil, and these engines definately use it.
An additional factor is fuel contamination which seems to be worse with the direct injection jts.
This bunch of factors leads me to hyperactive oil changes and always keeping it topped up on the higher side of max.
Definately a biatch... with a kaput camshaft i'd also worry about the bearings, especially the big ends... If you do go the route of changing teh cam shaft (inlet?) buy a new variator too. Change the entire belt kit and you might as well fit a new water pump (grab a metal impellor version if you can)... Personally i would swap out the big ends at least - it's cheap insurance if its done now...
A well known club sponsor and Alfa Specialist does prefer to recommend the twin spark equiped vehicles due to issues with oil starvation on the jts engine.
Its funny how this transpires, since in my case my Mechanic (an Alfa specialist) recommended against the twin spark and spoke highly of the JTS. His advice to me was to find the best example I could (that being one which had always been serviced by Alfa specialists), with the lowest Kms, the newest example I could find (at the time - that being 3 years ago) and for the best price I could manage.
My '03 JTS sportwagon fitted the bill exactly, as per his instructions, it now has 107,400km on the clock and goes superbly, and no dramas at all with worn cam lobes.
In my experience I think the point is if you buy a car which has not been maintained appropriately you run the risk of problems. Equally true is the opposite, as I think I have with mine. Mine hardly uses any oil at all, but I do regularly check and if at all a little low always keep toped up.
meh, TS, JTS very nearly the same engine...
now arese v6 vs the 4 bangers is a different story... :P
Well, this happened to me last year with my 156 TS and I did some research to find what might be going on.
I didn't know I had a problem until I decided to do the headgasket, and whilst I was pulling down the engine, imagine the surprise at finding a full 5mm missing from many lobes. My repair method was to search for the best secondhand cams I could find, get some extra lifters for the ones that were a bit suspect and proceed with job (including belts and variator of course).
Unlike you guys, I was running Mobil1, which is what I have used almost exclusively in my Alfa75 TS (differnt engine to the 156TS). That engine has been abused at the track for 20 years and has no issues.
The oil ALFA recommends for the 156 TS and JTS is actually their Selenia Racing (10W-60), which has an additional additive (a Four Letter Acronym I can't remember). They haven't always recommended this oil for both 156's, there was a change early in the car's life, and you can trace this backthrough their dealer releases.
I have decided to use Castrol Edge 10W-60 in all my cars now, and have not had any further issues.
Unless you take the tappet cover off you wouldn't know you had a problem.
Cheers
david
I suppose then that the rule would be that good oil has to be used - usually supplied buy an Alfa Specialist.
You have to get the car serviced by someone who knows the brand and the nature of then engines..
John,
We won't know whether it HAS to be Selenia until some more failures occur. I wish I knew more about the role of these additives that Europe are trying to reduce in oil. Whether these new oils (like Edge 10W-60 work in specific cases seems unclear. If you check all the oil company websites, very few specifiy ANY oil for the TS and Arese engines. It seems strange that all the complaints seem to be on the 2.0L TS and JTS engines. I see you also have an Arese V6 engined car...these don't seem to suffer from premature lobe wear, not have I found particluarly bad examples in the original TS series (as used in in ALFA75).
Lets hope that we have the solution.
Cheers, david
Recently i had the cam cover off my 156 JTS and was a bit nervous as to what i would see, the cams lobes were fine, which makes me think that lobe wear problems are caused by oil starvation by running the oil level too low or skipped oil changes with dirty oil and sludge clogging up the oil holes for correct lubrication and the incorrect oil viscosity being used that is too thick to be pumped to the top of the engine on startup, i change my oil every 6 months or 6000 ks, the oil being the cheapest thing i will ever put in the engine!
The dealers and Alfa Specialists have advised the problem of not using the correct speck oil is that the cams wear out. For the occasional long distance drive I have purchased a litre of the best oil for potential top ups.
Some people change oil frequently (me for sure 5,000kms) but an issue is cheap below spec oil used and infrequent service. Twin Spark or otherwise, if the oil level is not checked and only serviced every 20,000 kms, then if the oil level is low the engine is damaged.
Opinions vary but the latest feeling (opinions I have hears from several sources) about the JTS is that the Twin Spark is a better motor and less problematic. I was surprised to hear it. The JTS is a newer car so you sort of assume the technology is better and more reliable.
So question, if the JTS engine was so good, why was it only available for a few years and then discontinued with the 159 - and not available at all on the 147 ?
Re worn cams, i am bias here because i have a 156 JTS, when i said use the correct oil, i meant the correct viscosity, Alfa recomends 10-60, if you use say the more common 20-50 then it will be thicker at startup and then it wil take longer for the oil to reach the camshafts, the 10 rating being very thin almost like kerosene when the oil is cold, the 60 rating is what the oil thickness is when the engine is hot, i have used the highly touted Mobil 1, but the viscosity is not quite right for the JTS, it is 5-50 and i found that it used slightly more oil due to the fact i think it was thinning out at high temperatures, i currently use Castrol Edge 10-60 because it is the correct viscosity, an engine builder told me years before i got my JTS, what good oil Castrol Edge is, but i do not know enough about oils as i am not a Scientist, another feature of oil should have is called 'cling' that is the ability to coat to the metal and not drain off over night, so the metal parts do not have a dry start, this why this is why another man recommended good old fashion mineral oil with good 'cling' characteristics, another thing not touched on is the oil filter on a JTS the ones i have seen are much smaller than a filter on a twin spark, due to less room around the exhaust on a JTS, they may clogg up quicker and not filter the dirt out of the oil, there are several brands on the market, i use Daiken brand sold by Westfill, because they are 30% bigger than the more commonly available ones, the downside is they are even more difficult to change due a bigger filter going into a smaller space, Colin.
Re discontinue of JTS engine, the JTS engine in the 156 was used between 2002-2006, it offered 11 more kilowatts, 10% more torque at lower revs and better fuel economy than a twin spark, the down side of this engine is that it was more expensive to build than a twin spark due to the direct injection and more electronics, the JTS motor was not used in the sister Fiat cars but was used in the upmarket Lancia Lybra, but according to a spare parts catalogue the JTS was used in 147's oversea's, but i have never seen one in Australia, but i do not know everything, they may have made their way to Australia!.
The reason why the Alfa Romeo\ Fiat motors did not get used in the 159 series is because our parent company Fiat were in a bad way and General Motors took a stake in them as a roundabout way of getting into the Italian market, the 159 was approx 15% heavier than a 156 and needed a bigger motor, supplied by General Motors a 2.2 litre Family 2 supplied by i believe Opel and Pontiac and the 159 v-6 blocks were supplied by Holden in Australia, this arrangement injected some much neede cash to Fiat to develope new models and allowed General Motors to build more volume, Colin.
NO OIL gets 'thicker' as it gets warmer... and the ratings aren't precise values. Simply when cold (0C) the 10w-60 will 'flow like' a single grade 10w oil, and at full operating temp (90-100C) it flows like a signle grade 60w oil.. hence "multi-grade".
all oils get thinner at higher temps as the molecules excite and disperse.
- why the 'flow' analysis? because that's how oil actually works... there are no ball bearings on your crank shaft or conrods, they are simply flat pieces of half-circle metal - that is how the lubrication works - by inducing a fluid induced suspension of the running gear, that actually floats on the high pressure flow of oil ("hydrodynamic lubrication"). This stuff about 'cling' and all that is largely marketing BS.... The viscosity of oil is important as that is what determines flow.
This is why in most cases in normal driving you'll be better off on the thinner 'cold rating' alternative, but only a proper engine bench test will determine which oil flows best at optimal pressure for a particular engine at a fixed rpm.
also if you believe the power figures alfa gave for the 2.0 jts, get set to be disappointed on a dyno. I've never seen one make substantially more power than a TS.
Re power outputs, my 156 JTS put out a dissapointing 100 h.p. at a Dyno day, i was dissapointed until i got in the car and all the dash lights were flashing, i then worked it out that the electronic nanny had cut power to the engine because the front wheels were spinning at a million miles an hour and the back wheels were stopped, how you would disable it is i do not know!, as it is all linked with the traction and stability control and the ABS, the JTS engine has FOUR Lambda sensors, and one of them are a bit off their best, you lose a bit of power, luckily as i drove home all the sensors reset themselves and all the dash lights went out.
Well, my (156 TS) engine had Martini oil supplied by an alfa workshop when regularly serviced.
Can only go on what the dealers and after market specialists are finding - many people purchasing a damaged 156 JTS and get a bit of a shock. There seems to be a bit of grief out in the 2nd hand market.
Regarding Smitti52 comments, any discussion with an alfa workshop will cobnfirm while not common, the worn cam and poor maintenance (shit cheap oil) has been an issue.
Cheers.
yep, - its not always nice to point out - and may discourage JTS owners, but the obvious has not been stated....
random worn cam lobes and bottom end damage was never a problem on alfa made fours and 6s.... only when the switch to fiat iron block 4s was made did that become a problem.... with the jts many theorise that the design flaw is inadequate oil ports in the heads, but that does not explain bottom end damage... some blame also the thicker oil spec'd by alfa with the jts, but that does not explain damage in cars that run 10w-40...Suffice to say IMHO, the fiat engine is cheaply made - i mean, iron block? in a performance 4cly sedan? Cheap materials as well as the above - a combination of all these factors - is likely leading to these issues...
alfa have had their problems, but top engine design and materials was always the case, esp with the v6s... wet steel liners, all alloy design, fully nitrided cranks.... some of the most solid bottom ends rolling... also note the cam belt revision from 5yrs/100k km to 3yrs/60k km did not affect the alfa 6s, just the fiat 4s...
that old chestnut aside, merry christmas... have a good break guys... hope the only xmas tree u see is in your living room not on your dash!
Quote from: colcol on December 24, 2010, 01:16:14 PM
Re power outputs, my 156 JTS put out a dissapointing 100 h.p. at a Dyno day, i was dissapointed until i got in the car and all the dash lights were flashing, i then worked it out that the electronic nanny had cut power to the engine because the front wheels were spinning at a million miles an hour and the back wheels were stopped, how you would disable it is i do not know!, as it is all linked with the traction and stability control and the ABS, the JTS engine has FOUR Lambda sensors, and one of them are a bit off their best, you lose a bit of power, luckily as i drove home all the sensors reset themselves and all the dash lights went out.
I had the same power output from my JTS (Spider) and when I checked the power curve on the printout it was all lumpy at the top rather than a smooth arc. My engine light didn't flash (or i didn't notice it do so and then reset) but your explanation would fit with the shape of the curve. Where did you come across this as an explanation, is there more reference reading out there?
Re electronic nanny, the only time the stability control light ever came on with me was when i went into a corner too fast and a light blinked that i had never seen before, and if you have ever taken off from the lights too quickly then the traction control light will come on and it will cut spark to the various cylinders to minimise harm, as for cast iron blocks, sure they are cheap and heavy, but a good cast iron block will always put out more power than a good aluminium block but with added weight penalty's, a cast iron block is stronger and maintains its shape better, has round cylinders that don't go out of round like aluminium block and during hot weather they don't expand causing the ring gaps to expand loosing power, look at the V8 supercars all cast iron blocks!, the reason why Alfa have gone to the General Motors aluminium engine now is that the new emmision laws , the law require less emisions in the critical warm up stage, a aluminium with its better warm up due to aluminium transfers temperature better, a cast iron block can be made to comply, but with more and expensive electronics, Colin.
hrmm...
cast iron, has its advantages (in trucks and very torquey diesels), but like i said, this is in a 145hp tops 4 pot n/a sedan. It should have been all alloy as it was in the TS before it... it was made w/ an iron block outta cheapness, not for any other advantage
cylinders out of round? - any alloy block worth a damn has removable steel liners (wet). This is how alfa always did it. All this combines to of course also make for an engine that has a far better time cooling itself as well cf iron block that is essentially a dutch oven from the bottom of the heads down.. (and half the reason why iron blocks are cheap is b/c they simply bore a hole and there's ur cylinder... burn thru it and.... u're f*&ked..)
as for ring gaps - pfft. the fiat iron 4s are among the worst, iron block or not. give it a good rev and marvel in the sweet secondary function of the 2.0 JTS - smoke screen cover for the land invasion.
the iron block itself can be stiff and strong, but it's all for naught with bottom ends that fail - big end bearings, thrust bearings - all eating the crank like it was made of shortbread. the alfa nord never had bottom end problems, in fact alfa never had any bottom end issues that i can think of period IIRC aside from the crank plug issue which was easily solved by tapping and/or using strong loctite.
Not that there is anything to be gained by belly-aching over a now superseeded engine - but it's just a shame when the shining beacon of alfas were always its no expense spared engines with the best of enginering solutions and materials available at the time (in cruel contradiction to the body construction).
Re Fiat engines, i would say the reason the crank bearings and camshafts fail is because the owner runs them out of oil, the difference between full and low marks on the dipstick is about 1 litre, that is 1 litre of oil between ok and engine failure, no ones wants to admit they failed to check the oil level when they should have, they don't want to look like a WALLY, also the oil used in a JTS is 10-60, this is a very thin oil that manufacturers are using because of low drag and therefor better fuel consumption, this is very thin and manages to find its way past the piston rings very easy, therefor high oil consumption leading to low oil levels leading to engine failure, i remember the first time i changed the oil in the JTS, i couldn't beleive how thin it was, as it rushed out of the sump with the viscosity of water!, missing the drainpan i had put underneath it, requiring a good mopping out of the workshop!, Colin.
oil consumption: alfa engines have always consumed some oil - but it seems to be worse with the JTS in particular. that is still a negative on the JTS. In any case, consumption has not led to this many issues on any other alfa engine. Alfas revised guideline of 1l per 1000miles is way too much any way you cut it.
oil viscosity: on what planet is 10w-60 a thin oil? its one of the thickest at temp you can buy. I know not of any passenger vehicle that takes a thicker oil. the v6 which does not have the smoking ring problem i have seen in the JTS runs a much thinner 10w-40. viscosity is clearly not to blame.
JUST MY OPINION: the JTS oil gets trashed b/c of the first gen direct injection imho. The TS isn't as bad in this respect. I believe with the loose rings on the JTS the fuel getting dumped at much higher pressure thanks to the head mounted mechanical fuel pump (stays in liquid form longer) means that raw fuel is getting past the pistons (loose rings) and dumping into the oil supply. Q: what is one of the best solvents known to man? petrol. Mix that with oil and it don't take einstein to figure out what happens. The efficacy and viscosity of oil quickly goes to crap. This also explains oil levels. When cold, the fuel/oil mix appears at an acceptable level. Fang the car on a long and hard trip and the fuel quickly evaporates from the oil - all of a sudden u are a litre down. No other way of expaining that much oil loss in a short time in a car thats not badly smoking.
again jmo: the 2.0 JTS is one engine you def should not stick to the service book. 20k kms b/w oil and filter changes for this engine is waaay too long. Truth is tho, there is likely no service interval short enough to keep the oil honest.
I'm enjoying reading this topic and thought I would add a comment. I have a 2.0TS which has now done 103,000. I actually ran the engine for over a kilometre without any oil at about 80,000 (I'm too embarrassed to go into detail on that one ::) ). I change the oil every 12 months and there is absolutely no topping up required throughout the year. Engine is still going as strong as it ever has and doesn't blow any smoke whatsoever.
Oil Viscosity, i can understand where you are coming from on that, i noted that that the twin sparks used 10-40w oil, but i take it to get the JTS oil consumption down to an acceptable level a 10-60w oil was specified, being a thicker oil it would burn less and not get past the rings like a thinner 10-40w, it is a well known fact that on high mileage cars and oil burners like some JTS's, a thicker oil is used, as regarding oil dilution, you hit the nail on the head!, if the oil becomes diluted with petrol and for city cars that never get warmed up and the oil becomes diluted with moisture, then the oil level may be at the top, take it on a run and all the contaminates get burnt out and the oil level can drop to dangerous levels and you may ruin a motor, i have been told that the JTS's run FOUR Lambda sensors, if they go a bit off song, then the engine managment will richen up the mixture to compensate for any errors that may occur, as opposed to leaning it out which would cause pistons melting due to high temperature, and thats when you start to get oil contamination, Colin.
bix, I would change my oil twice a year and the oil filter every 2nd oil change or once a year, if you only do low kilometre's per year the oil will get contaminated with rubbish, and like i said the oil is the cheapest think you will ever put in your engine, check oil company websites for the recomended oils to use, some drivers have a preference for particular brands of oil, i have no idea what is the 'best' oil as i am not a scientist, you say your engine doesn't use any oil, yours must have been run in properly!, if i had a new car then i would drain the oil out the manufacturer put in, and put some hard to obtain 'running in oil' in and drain it after 1000 kilos and put some good oil in then, i have always done this with all engines i have done and they seem to always run in good and settle down to a long life, like yours that doesn't burn oil, Colin.
Re: the discontinued JTS engine - It was last seen in the Alfa GT JTS which ended its production in mid 2010. This means that the JTS engine had an 8 year run, about the same as a German car.
JTS, JTS is not so much a motor but the type of fuel injection system, JTS stands for Jet Thrust Stoichemetric which means Jet Thrust = High Pressure, Stoichemetric = Greek word for roughly air fuel mixture, the Fiat based engine that was used in 156's from 2002-2006 in the 2 litre form is completely different to the 2.2 litre General Motors based engine used in the 159, they both employ JTS systems which are direct injection, this is a new system in the Automotive field, but was used in constant speed Aircraft motors in the 1950's, the reason they are now being used in cars is because of the push for better fuel use, and with the constant varying demands on a car motor, a very clever engine managment system is used, due to the advances in computer systems in modern cars, Colin.
I can tell you the JTS 2.2 is no miser on the fuel :-\
Point taken on 6 monthly oil changes; laziness unfortunately has gotten the better of me in recent years.
Re 2.2 JTS, it may not be a miser on fuel, but compared to a 156 Fiat engine JTS, it has to haul around a heavier body and the engine makes more power and torque, and uses more fuel, as a comparison the best my 2.0 JTS has done is 37.04 M.P.G. or 13.22 kilometre's per litre, the worst is 29.49 M.P.G. or 10.53 kilometre's per litre, and i drove 827 kilometre's on a tank, before i ran out!, i drive light traffic, freeway and heavy traffic everyday and i do a fuel consumption check every fillup so i can keep a check on things that may go wrong ie the FOUR lambda sensors on a 2.0 JTS, Colin.
Col. So far my calculations on the 159 JTS range from 9.57k's per litre to the best being 13.3 k per litre which was pure highway driving. Very average for a modern car.
Has the 159 JTS got the correct oil in it?, the fully Synthetic oils that are quite thin are very important to keep the friction levels low in the engine, also check to see if the air cleaner element is not blocked, on a 932 series these are sometimes overlooked as you are advised to take your long service leave to change it! as it takes foreever to renew it, and the coolant thermostat, if these are staying open for too long the engine runs too cold and the engine managment system will run it too rich, Colin.
oil would have to be pretty thick to have a significant effect on petrol mileage....
here's the short answer... its a 1.5T car.... stated figures are for dreamers only...
nothing wrong w/ bix's figures... 10l/100km to a best of ~7.5l/100 is pretty damn good for a car of its size (both engine and overall weight)...
what's wrong w/ the 932 air filter? on the v6 which is generally a nightmare, its pretty straightforward.... not as good as some sure, but obvious and do-able enuff... (doing it soon, watch me eat my words!!) ;)
I don't know what the recomended oil is for the JTS GM based motor, but i am sure it would be a thin low friction synthetic oil to try and get the most out of a drop of fuel, as it is a relatively small motor pulling around a heavy car, that is the price you pay for 5 stars crash rating and roomy comfortable car with proper aircon, the air cleaner in the 932 series is a pain, as there is so much to remove out of the way to access it, when you have oversize hands like i do!, if you have a 2 litre remove and clean the spark plugs as you do the air cleaner as if it takes you 1 hour to replace the air cleaner and another 10 minutes to do the spark plugs it will make you feel good, a bit of sugar to go with an awfull job always helps, just hope that the screws holding the air cleaner housing are not seized up and you have to drill them out, also make sure you have an aircleaner 932 service kit consisting of DETTOL and BANDAIDES, Colin.
The manual specifies SAE 5W-40, and recommends Selenia StAR (which will cost you a small artificial island off the coast of Dubai).
Have a look at some oil company websites and see what they advice, eg Mobil, Castrol, Penrite, Valvoline, and pick which one is the closest to what is recommended by Fiat\Alfa, look at the ratings and specs on the oil containers and decide which one you like best, if you cannot decide then go with Selena, which is owned by Fiat, in the old days with my 84 Alfa 33, Alfa didn't own any oil company's and the owners manual recommended AGIP, IP, [Italian Petroleum], Shell, Mobil and Arexions?, as long as it was a reputable brand and the right viscosity and rating use it!, the choice is yours, just make sure it doesn't void you r warranty, Colin.