just after some opinion on what would be a more easy way to convert from four stud to five at the rear
a: swap the hubs and have the benifit of new rear wheel bearings
b: swap the a-frame
To pull the hubs off you will kill the bearings for sure. Its a prick of a job. I think they cost around $100 each to replace. Depends what a replacement complete frame with good bearings will cost. Do some homework.
i have a complete frame with bearings that are ok from an old car of mine
or i can get bearings from skf at trade price
i was wondering which was the more easy of the two jobs in your opinion?
have changed many a transaxle but have only done one rear wheel bearing and it was a long time ago
im asking because im not sure how much of a bitch the rear hubs are to change.............if there a pain in the ass ill be changing the frame for sure
i did it 16 years ago....i cant even remember last week!
What was the topic again??? :D
my recollection of the bearing swap out is that you need:
1*very long bar, say 1.5m
1*freezer
1*oxy
Have to get stuff nice and cold and nice and hot to get things to go back together. And it takes some serious force to pop the flange out. I'd still swap bearings personally, then she'll be nice and new. I mean pulling the transaxle out is probably going to take about as long anyway. A stitch in time saves nine.
Yeah Mike
I know the rear flang nut is mega tight.
I do have all the tools in my workshop (inc a freezer and oxy) and it would be nice to have new bearings.
Im so indecisive...worse than a freakin woman.
Anybody know who can bend up some neg camber and toe on the A frame in Melbourne?
I know Beninca can do it so there is one.
..at least you're honest with yourself.
I am having the A frame cambers reset on the wheel aligner. CHeck out a crowd that is prepared to do it. Failing that come to Brisbane. I 'll hook you up . :)
Still interested in the people that can bend up the a frame?
Im tipping alot of heat and removal and replacment of wheel bearings.
Nothing of the sort.
You cut and you weld.
Adjust for camber and toe if that's what you want .
Weld in stages to keep it cool.
The bearing are nowhere near where the welds are anyway.
The more critical is the control of shrinkage during the welding so you don't wind up with much more adjustment than you intended.
ok thats interesting. I may have been told the wrong information. Makes sense as the outter ends are welded on anyway.
Sorry, I think I was a little harsh on you.
What you proposed is in fact one of the techniques. However unless you have blacksmith skills, it will simply turn into a nightmare and yes the bearings would need to come out first. Co-ordinating the alignment measurements at the same time would indeed be a tricky business hence the alternative that I have described for you. This was done to my last race car build and so I know it works. I also intend to do the same on the one I am building now.
Quote from: bt46 on September 29, 2010, 12:29:35 AM
Still interested in the people that can bend up the a frame?
Im tipping alot of heat and removal and replacment of wheel bearings.
Hugh at Monza motors can organise that for you, ....
Not sure where the cut and weld comes from. We used to use a large oxy torch. It's a little hit and miss so you may need to go through a couple of iterations.
My recommendation is to get an old steel wheel and weld a strong long straight bar across it. Use the bar to both do the be bending and measuring the results.
You will fry the bearing using that approach. The factory tool to replace the bearing is a simple but decent size slide bar. If you've seen it you'll never do it any other way. Beninca's have one......it takes oh all of a few minutes each side.
Alister
Hi Guys,
I am with MD on this one,if you are good at welding,measuring and using a 9" (on a hoist for me)then go for it.I run a cut up the De Dion tube about 7/8 of the way up,near to the original weld and drive a wedge of a given thickness into each cut until you have the amount of camber you are looking for then check measure the track front and rear of the back wheels with the wheels on,set the toe where you want it and tack the tubes up but as Mikey said be very carefull to keep checking and weld a bit every where so it doesnt pull out the alignment.Works a treat but it's not adjustable!.
Cheers
Andrew
See photo for what is under discussion.
See second photo if you want it adjustable and you own a stock exchange.
*Welding photo courtesy AlfaGTV6.com
As far as hub changes go it's not that hard really.If you just want to change the hubs all you need to do is use a 3/4 breaker bar with a 36mm 3/4 drive impact socket on the nut while the car is sitting on it's wheels to undo it,then jack it up take off the wheel and use a puller to pull the hub out,they aren't that tight in the bearing in my experience.To refit the 5 stud ones just assemble it and make sure you do that nut up tight again after.
To replace the bearing,once you have the hub out disconnect the axle and remove it.I then just use a puller made out of a threaded rod or 14mm bolt with fine thread and some bits of tube,a bit of channel and something solid enough to grab the bearing inner.Once the retainer is removed you should be able to wind it out,I think I pulled it out using the inner(makes it a binner! ha ha) and pulled it back in by the outer so as not damage it.I did notice that German made bearings have no play in them new but Italian ones do!.
Its not hard to improvise special tools if you have a grasp of the engineering principles involved,or am I grasping my tool!s?.I stuck a couple of pictures of some rudamentary pullers for the bearing and the rear transaxle mount.
Cheers
Andrew
Hi MD,
I notice you did yours from the top down,I did mine from the bottom up in the same manner.
Cheers
Andrew
Thanks guys.
The photos are great.
Just wondering how you measure the wheel alighnment on the hoist as you adjust.
String line?
Degree wheel?
Cheers
In my case, it has to be on the wheel aligner at the time of stitching up. As Andrew and I have said, you need to carefully wedge the cuts and progressively weld whilst continually monitoring your settings as the welding itself will want to create a greater angle than you may want or worse, you will wind up with one value on the left and a different value on the right.
I set them at 0* toe and 3.5* camber. As you know the factory setting is 0* toe and 0.5* camber. I hope that helps.
Hi bt46,
MD did it with the proper measuring equipment,I am a little more instinctive shall we say,I measured centre to centre(from the centre of left to the centre of the right wheels) before any work was done,with the wheels on so you have as big a diameter as possible.If it is even as it should be and you have no reason to doubt the correctness of the current set up then you can begin.Cut one side and wedge it across the diameter of the tube checking the measurements front and back of the wheels to keep it straight as far as toe goes,to measure the camber I used an old engineering tool which has a spirit level in a gauge that you adjust and it tells you the degrees from vertical,I cant think of the proper name for it!!.You will need to be sure the De Dion frame is level to use a tool with a spirit level in it for the camber.
When you have the camber you want start tacking it up carefully as we have said and weld it up if you like.
Once you have done one side repeat the process on the other side.If you can lock up the back wheels with the hand brake and mark your measuring points on the tyre front and back you will keep some consistency.
You can remove and refit the wheel during the process for access but always put it back the same way,this is the way I do it from the bottom up.
Hope that helps
Cheers
Andrew
MD
i just took a look at ur pic for the camber and it totally different to how i will do mine, what i will be doing is to move the roll centre to the bottom and the cut the top of the de-dion around half way (middle back over the top the middle front) then just put a little weight on it and its done weld up and alls happy no heat going anywhere near bearings
i will post pics as im doing it just to show all how i have done it to
the father inlaw has had it done this way on his r/c for about 5/6 years and it works fine
Hi Dehne,
I need the pictures please,I cant make any sense of your description.
Cheers
Andrew
i get a pic of one that has already been done tomorrow and post it up, ill take a pic of the straps that have been put on it also
Andrew, I think dehne is going to make one cut in the centre of the DeDion tube after lowering the watts link central fixing point. (his roll centre move).
..er good luck mate.
here is one that we have done before
some pics with the straps,
be cutting and welding here it also changes the toe in a bit to but not sure by how much
So dehne. How much camber and toe is on that conversion?
neg 2 camber and somewhere around 1 deg toe in i think but not 100% sure
dehne,
In picture 3 looking at the watts linkage, the lower arm would appear to bind up on the pivot point very early if the de-dion moved left relative to the body. Has this been a problem at all that you know of?
Quote from: prettyboyalfetta on October 08, 2010, 09:36:31 PM
dehne,
In picture 3 looking at the watts linkage, the lower arm would appear to bind up on the pivot point very early if the de-dion moved left relative to the body. Has this been a problem at all that you know of?
Er... what? Why would the de-dion move to the left (or the right for that matter)? The whole point of the watts linkage is to locate the de-dion centrally, and keep it there.
Correct in that the watts linkage is intended to prevent relative movement between the body and the wheels. It does this by rotating on the centre of the watts linkage, hence why it has bushes or perhaps rose joints (if yours special). If you corner hard enough the lateral force on the tyres will try to push them out from under the car and rotate the watts linkage.
I hope that makes sense
Quote from: prettyboyalfetta on October 08, 2010, 10:25:26 PM
Correct in that the watts linkage is intended to prevent relative movement between the body and the wheels. It does this by rotating on the centre of the watts linkage, hence why it has bushes or perhaps rose joints (if yours special). If you corner hard enough the lateral force on the tyres will try to push them out from under the car and rotate the watts linkage.
I hope that makes sense
Makes absolutely no sense at all. So what if the Watts link rotates? That is how it works. Every time you go over a bump, the centre portion of the Watts link rotates as the de-dion moves up or down. Does that mean that every time you go over a bump your wheels are moving left or right? No, because the other end of the two arms are attached to the body. If the top bolt of the centre piece moves 10mm to the right, the bottom bolt of it moves 10mm to the left, and the centre pin (which actually locates the De-dion) stays exactly where it was (in terms of left to right).
The ONLY side to side movement you will get is due to the deflection in the rubber bushes, and that is bugger all.
dehne.
I must commend you on the solution to keep the springs captive.Excellent. Provided it allows the springs to fully open without dislodgement, it's a simple and great solution.
the straps are at springs full release (no weight on them) they do the job and have had no probs yet
it would appear to me that prettyboy is concerned that when the watts linkage rotates on the car in the photo, however that may happen either in bump, rebound or when it rotates in order to prevent lateral motion of the de-dion, that if it rotates enough that the arms may bind on the centre pivot point.
If that car is sitting at standard ride hide, the angles of the watts linkage bars are quite steep, a standard car has those arms parallel. dehne have you noticed any difference handling wise with the lowered rear roll centre?
the car has been lowered as well so it effectivly is in the same angle poss as standard, father inlaw has had his like this for about 6 years plus and never has a prob thats why im doing mine like that to
it looks like hoist that the car is on is only supporting the body, hence the car is therefore at full droop anyway, am I correct?
thats is correct