http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/vw-bids-for-alfa-romeo-20100824-13og4.html (http://smh.drive.com.au/motor-news/vw-bids-for-alfa-romeo-20100824-13og4.html)
Perhaps the brand would be more likely to survive as part of the VW group.
Oh dear, now I'm really conflicted. For a while now I've said to the wife that in a perfect world I'd have an alfa for 'driving' and a Golf for all those other things we have to do in a car, like go to the shops, cart kids around, throw animals in the back (which perhaps I've already covered in saying cart kids around) etc.
Not so sure I want them to be the same thing though.
Although it could be good. Can I place my order for a Twin Charger Mito with DSG gearbox?
On the flip side, it could be bad - a car that's supposed to be fun to drive, with german engineering? Isn't that a bmw?
Shudders....
Alfa owned by the same company that owns Porsche
More shudders.....
Suppose we'll have to concentrate on those Lambo connections
if this happens it could be the best thing that has ever happened to the marque...
quality needs to come way up, and if vw treats alfa like they do audi, we're set...
Quote from: wankski on August 24, 2010, 05:30:57 PM
if this happens it could be the best thing that has ever happened to the marque...
quality needs to come way up, and if vw treats alfa like they do audi, we're set...
I agree ...
Welcome back John. Good to see you active on the Forum again.
I have to be nice to you 'cause I am going to disagree with you :D
Alfa now barely lives on history and heritage and recently celebrating it's 100 in Oz just strengthens that marketing point. What's going to happen to Italian heritage for this fine machine when it is German built? If nothing else a state of confusion in the mind of the buyer. Is it Italian? Is it German? Does it matter?
Well yes to me it does matter. If they built a replica Colosseum down to the last grain of sand and put it up in Hamburg, would the experience be the same? Would walking up a new leaning tower of Pizza in Cologne feel the same? No I don't think so.
For me using some German parts as they do now is about as far I want to see the brand move. I would rarther see it die on the vine and remain a piece of history like the work of Michelangelo. Let the Germans earn their respect instead of going shopping for it.
BTW German stuff is not all it's craked up to be. I have owned the first series Golf. Day one I owned it, the driver's side quarter pane fell clean out when I opened it. It had a shit load of electrical gremlins that left you stranded anywhere and anytime at random. This crap was only exceeded by the worst brakes on any car I ever owned.
Sure they can great cars too, but then so can most advanced countires if the will is there.
Not many people know that today most German cars aren't actually built by German tradesmen. All the grunt work is done by cheap imported labour from everywhere.
If this ever happened I would never buy an alfa romeo again!!!
Volkswagen are just poor cars. We have one volkswagen in the family which belongs to my sister. The rest of us own a 164, 159, 156 and a 1984 giulietta. However, It is the poor build quality of the volkswagen that has really amazed me.
First of all, it is poorly engineered. The polo owned by my sister is a 2001 model but has a cable clutch set which none of my alfas ever had, not even my giulietta. This apparently is acceptable and is used by some golfs. I have seen 2007 model with the same set up. Recently the clutch pedal became very hard to depress and the cable snapped. As i went to replace the cable i realised the chassis was cracked as well in the spot were the clutch cable goes through the firewall and into the engine bay. Using a vernier, i measured the thickness of the firewall and found it was 0.5mm thick. It is so thin that you could literally push the metal back and forth with your fingers. If you dont believe me see the photo below.
Now how can VW purchasing Alfa Romeo be a good thing when their cars use outdated engineering principles/technologies and poor build quality which results in cars with only 80000kms to get cracked chassis.
first, no one said vw golfs are better than alfa anythings..
second, tell me MD, which vw apart from the phaeton (which i visited in dresden) is built in germany. they aren't...
what we are talking about is what the VAG can do for the subs it buys... look at lamborg, audi, even seat... all drastically improved under german management...
lets face it, fiat are wankers, and everything they 'harmonised' on alfas was a set back... fiat iron block. the original alfa nord TS was so much better its not funny....
it's fiat management as well that encourages all the international dealers to screw and completely not support the product... hence u see common examples of people buying brand new alfas and have issues from day 1 and they are basically told by alfa to go jump...
that's not good by anyone's definition...
alfa had great success from the 156, but the fiat group managed to fail to take advantage of the revival and secure the brand's future, hence the current buy out speculation...
It'll be tough for fans of the brand to decide between surviving under VW or disappearing altogether! While I can see the advantages, it doesn't give much hope for a return to rear wheel drive.
A lot depends on where they place the brand in their stable. Sure we can all point to stories showing that VW Polo's are rubbish but the VW Group also own Bugatti (anyone think the Veyron is rubbish?) Bentley, Audi (I drive a 2.7l V6 twin turbo Audi Allroad and it is by any measure a stunning performance vehicle); Skoda and SEAT.
If Alfa Romeo is to produce cheaper, flimsier cars than Skoda then it will be a disaster but if it is chosen to sit at the performance end of Audi, the results would be very different. All that I know is that the FIAT Group ownership of Alfa has not been good for the brand.
QuoteAll that I know is that the FIAT Group ownership of Alfa has not been good for the brand.
Can't think of anyone that would not agree with you Nigel.
I think Sir Richard Branson should buy Alfa and set it free.. ;D
QuoteVolkswagen are just poor cars
Angelo.
Instead of harping on ancient history have a look at "Wheels Car of the year 2009"
Volkswagen GolfAs a 3 car Alfa Romeo family , earlier this year when it was time to replace the " War Office's " car she said she wanted something sensible (note; not another Alfa Romeo.)
Ended up buying a 118 TSI Golf ( Twin turbo 1.4 with DSG gearbox ) . What a hoot to drive . Only downside is, pity it sounds like a sewing machine when you start it.
The merge, if it ever proceeds
could be a result that delivers the best of both worlds.
A more detailed report here, the deal doesn't sound too likely....http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100823/COPY01/308239928/1303 (http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100823/COPY01/308239928/1303)
For what it's worth, if it ever happened I think it could be a good thing. VW have an excellent track record of managing it's brands extremely well. Lamborghini was almost a basket case when VW took them over, they're doing better now than ever before, and it hasn't been that long. From what I've read it sounds like VW would be more sympathetic to the "Brand" and the history than Fiat ever have been. VW have also proven that they can make arguably the best car in the world at the time, in the Phaeton, and the fastest, in the Veyron. And by the sounds of it, the shonkiest, in Angelo's sister's Polo.
If they were to simply rebody the Polo and Golf and call them Mito2 and 148 (or whatever), then yes that would not be a fantastic outcome. But would it be any worse than what we have now?
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on August 24, 2010, 10:01:47 PM
Ended up buying a 118 TSI Golf ( Twin turbo 1.4 with DSG gearbox ) . What a hoot to drive .
Paul, aren't they turbo and supercharged, rather than two turbos? And I've heard they're pretty good.
QuotePaul, aren't they turbo and supercharged
Sheldon, your right as usual, I meant to write Twin Charged, not Twin Turbo.
Very clever engine. It won Innovation Award & Best new engine in the international engine of the year awards in 2007.
Bump; See Dehne not that hard to admit your wrong, that is unless you have dug yourself a hole half way to China
Most people agree that FIAT's ownership hasn't been great for ALFA, but if the reason that opinion exists is resentment over ALFA's move to common platforms and front wheel drive, then isn't that exactly what a future with Volkswagen would bring?
VW ownership has to be better than with FIAT, and I certainly think it would have to be better than anything built on a shared platform with Chrysler which is slated to happen with future Alfa's. Current VW build quality also is very good and ALFA certainly needs big help in that department too. I think a German tie up has to be far better compared to a partial American one which appears to be the path Alfa looks to be headed for with FIAT.
I recently updated my Company car to a new 2010 Mk6 Golf GTI 6sp Man and it is fantastic and the build quality is perfect too. Its also much faster and better handling compared to any of the Alfas on offer in Australia at the moment so the decision was a no brainer really. Pity as I would dearly love a new Alfa but way too scared to go there even for a Company car which I dont own and then have the embarrassment to expalin to my MD why the car keeps breaking down all the time!!
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on August 24, 2010, 10:01:47 PM
Instead of harping on ancient history have a look at "Wheels Car of the year 2009" Volkswagen Golf
Sorry I don't read Wheels or any other car magazine. BTW 2009 is ancient history for me anway, I'm looking to 2011. I don't think i was harping on about ancient history because i believe a good car is determined by how well it stands the test of time. This is why cars like the giulia's, gtv's, 156 and other alfas still look great and drive great despite being part of ancient history. I'd like to see your golf in 10 years to see if it stands the test of time.
Quote from: Simon Rawther on August 25, 2010, 10:52:06 AM
dont own and then have the embarrassment to expalin to my MD why the car keeps breaking down all the time!!
Why would MD care about your 147 breaking down, he only cares about Transaxles.
Ah you'd be wrong there Sheldon. Transaxles are immediately after 38 double "D" cups.. ;D
Quote from: Paul Gulliver on August 25, 2010, 09:09:04 AM
QuotePaul, aren't they turbo and supercharged
Sheldon, your right as usual, I meant to write Twin Charged, not Twin Turbo.
Very clever engine. It won Innovation Award & Best new engine in the international engine of the year awards in 2007.
Paul,
Thats ancient history technology. I do recall an italian manufacturer by the name of lancia using this technology way back in 1985 and 1986 to great success so you are about 25 years behind. They should give that award to lancia and charge VW with stealing the idea.
Sequential charging I think is much older than that as it was around during the second world(if not before) war and used in aircraft. To be fair, I think it was only supercharging as turbo technologies came later but the idea was certainly there.
Also a little unfair to compare Group B rally technology with road technology. (I assume you're talking about the Delta S4?) The Group B engines were probably built to last about 1000km.
Gee, i never thought i would find my self defending German cars on an Alfa Forum but here goes.
QuoteI'd like to see your golf in 10 years to see if it stands the test of time.
Like or dislike German styling i think even the dullest observer would be able to recognize a 10 year old Golf. Kind of like a Porsche 911 The styling elements are seminal and timeless.
QuoteThats ancient history technology. I do recall an italian manufacturer by the name of lancia using this technology way back in 1985 and 1986 to great success so you are about 25 years behind. They should give that award to lancia and charge VW with stealing the idea.
Nissan in their 350Z also employed this technology long before the VW Golf . If you take the time to read the post I was just making a
statement of fact that it won Innovation Award & Best new engine in the international engine of the year awards in 2007
*Psst Paul - Nissan used it in their Micra in the late 80s, not sure they used it in the 350Z, but I have been wrong before. Once. Quickly edit your post, no-one will notice.*
Sheldon . I might of got a little ahead of myself on that last post. You could get a twin charged 350Z in America as an aftermarket option. But not from the factory
Quote from: MD on August 25, 2010, 07:12:51 PM
Sequential charging I think is much older than that as it was around during the second world(if not before) war and used in aircraft. To be fair, I think it was only supercharging as turbo technologies came later but the idea was certainly there.
yep, 2 stage superchargers, execution different, but idea the same... they used a '2 gear' gearbox to change the rpm of the supercharger to be more effective at higher altitudes, probably around in number from 1940 on...
I LOVE alfa romeo for theyre uniqueness,but unfortunately in the last few years they have lost that special alfissima,just look at the mito and the new giulietta,might sound bitter but god they are looking very giapponese at this time,only thing really is the badge,jeez the new giulietta looks like a subaru,saw it in rome alongside a sub,i could hardly distinguish them.hresay look at the 70s 80s and the individuality of say the alfetta,gtvs suds and so on,this vehicles where without question alfissima,so i am not surprised that with globalisation news like this will be more common-i reiterate,hang on to those classic alfas of the past as i am afraid the good days are finished and the world becomes oneand individuality is tossed aside for greater profits and multinationalism and personally if its vw or hyundai it does not really matter,they are all a level below the alfissima brand.
There are some basics that we haven't yet addressed.
When companies buy out another one or simply buy out certain lines from competitors and rebadge it as their own there is a predictable consequence. The new product gets pigeon holed to a certain strata within the overall product range because to do anything special with it may impact upon stuff they already have in the existing range and so two poducts would be competing against each other in the same company.
What that means in the VW context is that Alfa would most likely be allocated a market slot in the range and that would be that as opposed to be able to do their own free wheeling like they always have (before Fiat). Now is that the sort pf pigeon hole car ownership us Alfa devotees that have stuck with the brand with a passion second to none for decades going to take that crap? Hell no. We want innovation, individuallity and that unmistakable Alfa something. Build quality we have learned to live with and tolerate otherwise we wouldn't keep coming back for another one .
We can walk with our wallets just like anyone else if we have to.
Fiat CEO Says Won't Sell Alfa Romeo Brand, No Talks With VW
RIMINI, Italy (MF-Dow Jones)--Fiat SpA (F.MI) Chief Executive Sergio Marchionne said Thursday that he won't sell the Italian carmaker's sporty Alfa Romeo brand.
"There are no talks" with Volkswagen AG (VOW.XE), Marchionne said, speaking to journalists after giving a speech to a Catholic youth rally at this eastern Italian beach town.
German newspapers reported earlier this month that Volkswagen was interested in buying Alfa Romeo.
-By Francesca Chiarano,
No need to worry Mikey!
Now if we can just get the bastards to build another lightweight transaxle along the lines of the Il Monstro ES 30 SZ.
John
Quote from: JOHN G on August 26, 2010, 11:16:09 PM
Now if we can just get the bastards to build another lightweight transaxle along the lines of the Il Monstro ES 30 SZ.
We can but dream I suppose. BTW, another one came into the country a couple of months ago, heading for Tassie I believe.
The only thing that worries me about Marchionne's words is that they're a little too similar to the old "The coach has the full backing of the board.." two days before he's sacked.
Quote from: JOHN G on August 26, 2010, 11:16:09 PM
....
Now if we can just get the bastards to build another lightweight transaxle along the lines of the Il Monstro ES 30 SZ.
John
Lightweight ? At 1260kg it is not the heaviest of cars but not that lightweight. By comparison, it is heavier than 3l 75 (1210kg)
the composite panels used on "il mostro" are actually heavier than comparable steel panels would be. It is a great car for may reasons but lightweight it is not.
on the subject of Fiat vs. VW, i do not trust Fiat to manage AR into anything other then mediocrity like they have done with Lancia. Fiat actually has no idea what to do with Alfa and have openly expressed the intention to get rid of the baggage of history and "backward looking" alfisti.
Light weight compared to the shit they are building atm I should have said. :)
The GTV6 GROUP A weighed in at 960kg weight to power 5.1kg/kw 198kw (suprisingly low power )
My South African GTV6 3.0 1138kg 128kw (mine has a little more)
So Branko your correct mate!
I should have wrote .Now if we can just get the bastards to build another transaxle along the lines of the Il Monstro ES 30 SZ with a kerb weight of 1000 kg's with 250 to 300kw.
John
QuoteI should have wrote .Now if we can just get the bastards to build another transaxle along the lines of the Il Monstro ES 30 SZ with a kerb weight of 1000 kg's with 250 to 300kw
In right-hand drive ....