Am restoring my 86 alfa. Have a problem with timing after having heads done up and buttons set by mechanic. Cannot get the timing right. Have lined up 3 marks, two on cam and T on flywheel but the thing keeps blowing fuel back out the carbie throats. Happens on all 4 cylinders. Has me beat. I would assume that the timing was out but have checked the marks time and again and have even watched the cams while turning the motor by hand. The motor nearly starts until the fuel runs out. Anybody have a suggestion. Am about to set fire to it!
is 180 degrees out
ignition might be 180 out????
Yes I concur with Sportiva#22. I did the same thing when I changed my cam belts, because I'm hopeless and moved the flywheel, had exactly the same symptoms. Swapped the leads over and she fired first time. Hmm, must remember to swap them back next time I do the belts, or else let the next owner know...
How do I fix the problem. 180 out means that the timing marks on the cam should be set for no.2 not number 1. Is that right
Good job Sheldon, your spot on, swap the leads because the engine has been turned without the dizzy in it, so its 180 out.
The cambelt/valve timing is right, so don't touch it.
If you don't like the idea of swapping the leads, removed the dizzy and rotate the motor back to where it should be.
can it be out by 90 and how do I know where the engine should be
As long as the cams are lined up correctly and the flywheel T is lined up, it's either at 0 or 180. If it's not firing, swap leads (from memory swap from one bank to the other, but also from memory it was obvious which ones to swap. I worked it out, so an educated monkey probably could as well).
The cam timing marks are a line at the back of the cam and cam housing notchon the left of centre. Is this correct. To my logic, piston is on the up stroke when intake is open for fuel to be pushed out the throat so is 180 out. A piston rises twice in one cycle, the first time to compress the fuel prior to ignition and second to exhaust. So regardless on which stroke the cam is set to, so long as it is set to TDC should make no difference. Right? Can't fathom that the dizzy would have anything to do with it. To me, the dizzy supplies the spark. So long as the stroke is at TDC and the cam is set to TDC and the Dizzy set to fire No1 it should work but it doesn't. Will try changing dizzy position tomorrow. Changing leads stopped fuel spraying out the throats but wouldn't start.
Thats correct.
Number 1 piston at TDC,
Both cams with their marks lined up exactly with the notch on the back of the cam boxes
And the dizzy at Number 1.
Its an Alfa boxer motor, Tomorrow morning it will go first turn of the key.
Hows the Battery, because if its turning slowly the motor wont start. They like a good battery.
Good luck
thanks all who helped
Did it start?
No. Checked slot on dizzy - correct. My dizzy points west on no.1. at TDC. Still pushing fuel out throats. Close to starting still. tried swapping plugs did nothing. From the mark on dizzy for no.1, advanced dizzy got slightly better but still wouldn't run. At TDC both no1 and exhaust no3 valves closed and no3 just opening. No2 exhaust just closing and no4 exhaust just opening. Alfa 33 built 1987. Have tree marks on flywheel after two big holes. Using T as TDC - correct. Could the dizzy be out say one tooth. Does the slotted piece move up and has changed position similiar to that on other cars. Could this be the problem.
The problem is that if I rotate the crank 180 and line up the cams my dizzy will be out 180. The only thing I can think of is that when I lifted the Dizzy out I also moved the slotted bit thus throwing the timing of the dizzy out 1 tooth or so. It's the only thing I can think of. If I change the cams 180 to the crank, it will make no difference - is that right- as each rotation of the crank is the same.
I have been using a very faint T as TDC but have just found what looks like a pin sticking up about 3 mm just past the T. Is that TDC and if not, what is it.
It could be that your ignition is trying to fire when the cam timing has the valves on the exhaust cycle which means your cam timing and ignition are out of phase
every 720degrees the engine is back to TDC, cams rotate at half engine speed so every 2 rotations of the crank a valve will open, if your flywheel is on T your dist on 1 mark and #1 piston is a TDC then
The cam timing is 180 out. You should be able to do what sheldon suggests and swap ignition leads or pull the dist out and move the drive at the base of the dist. There are only two ways to have the drive 0 or 180 out if you align the drive 180 out the rotor button will be pointing on the other side of the dist away from the # 1 timing mark, put your # 1 ignition lead there. This will get the ignition and cam timing back in phase or you could take off the timing belts and rotate the crank once.
Have set timing on pin and forgot to put no1 plug back in before starting. Started fine apart from the noise. Blew water out no1 so either a problem with gasket or housing under carbie. Letting water in cylinder. Very hard to compress. Thermastat housing also broken. Can't get one from adelaide until after holidays in Italy. About 2 months. Pulled the plug off 3 and found no difference. Obviously a big problem with that head. Maybe just a blackened plug. Is there anybody else that could have the thermastat?
Runs really well on 2 cylinders.
Have replaced gasket in housing under carbie, and run without radiator but will not start with no1 plug in. Compression without oil 125PSI. Any ideas.
Holy shit man.
Water in the cylinder, fingers crossed, you might not have tensioned the cylinder heads correctly. I was taught by an engine builder that Fiats and Alfas have a relatively hard head gasket, therefore was told the following:
1. Put all bolts in an tighted to first of the three stages of tightening, say 30 FtLb DRY, in the correct sequence.
2. Remove one at a time, in the correct sequence, and lightly oil the thread, and under the bolt head and washer. Replace the bolt and tighten to first stage again.
Unfortunately this is impossible to do in alfa 33/suds with the engine in the car, hence why I ALWAYS REMOVE THE ENGINE TO DO HEAD GASKETS ON THESE CARS, NO QUESTIONS ASKED IT A MUST FOR A SUCCESSFUL JOB IN MY OPINION.
3. Tighten to second stage, 50 Ft Lb. using correct sequence.
4. Tighten to third stage, 70 Ft Lb, using correct sequence. By the way these are the actual torque figures I use on my race engine. Book says 60-64.3 Ft Lb for final torque.
5. Now most people leave it at that, BUT NO, I then loosen off, one at a time , using the correct sequence, and re-tighten to 70 again. ONE AT A TIME. Mark the head bolt with a texta, you will notice that the bolt will screw in further even though it is the same torque in step 4. Usually between roughly 1/12 to 1/6 of a turn any more and you have other problems.
Thats it.
So in your case, the engine is in the car so just do the last step using the book figure for torque-64 Ft Lb. Hopefully you have one of the really hard gaskets, which is the only way to go.
Do not continue to crank it if it has any signs of locking up because you can break ring lands on pistons and even bend the conrods. Take all plugs out and re- tension head and crank until no water comes out. Then re - check your timing. The cam timing to crank better be spot on at this stage or you will have damaged it. Actually just slowly spin it by hand and check before you attempt to crank anymore to remove water.
TIMING
T on the flywheel, spot on, not half a mm out , spot bloody on, I cannot stress how important this is!!!!!!!! The other marks are for checking the advance at different revs. Eg 8 degrees at idle and 36 @ 4500rpm for total.
Same for the cam marks, must be spot on, not a little out, spot on.
Same for the dizzy, must be on the mark on the dizzy housing, meaning No 1 ready to fire. this can be a little out because you will need a timing light to get it spot on. But still very close. When the dizzy is on No 1 you should see that the cam at No 1 cylinder has both lobes away from the followers, and No 2 has the cam "rocking" the followers, meaning exhaust closing and inlet opening.
This should go, and by the sounds of things you are close.
[I noticed you posted again while I was writing this, sound like no 1 it slowing the engine down too much for it to start. Make sure no water.
Should start with 125 comp, hopefully this increases because sounds a bit low, looking fo 150 -180 psi.
bought original gasket kit from the spare place in adelaide. Hope you are right. Only stepped twiced to 65lbs/ft. Will try going through your process for tightening heads. Heads have been shaved, valves lapped. tappets set correctly by mechanic etc. Have had the heads on and off a couple of times with the new gasket. I always crank by hand a couple of times before hitting the starter to make sure I don't bend valves.