Here is an interesting point I haven't seen raised anywhere, so if you have seen someone make this point, I am not plagiarizing (but if you see this elsewhere they are plagiarizing me!!!), why is it that every item you see in a store has a "Made in _ _ _ _ _" on it or the box it comes in and yet on a motor car it is a secret?
I mean on any product it has to be seen clearly in type face large enough to read on the pack or product as it is sold to a consumer. Yet the motor industry manage to hide this from consumers, I am sure many people would like to know (or maybe they wouldn't) that;
Alfa Romeo made in Italy (all since 1910)
VW Golf is made in South Africa (start of production in Germany then switch location)
VW Beetle made in Mexico
BMW 3 series also Sth Africa
BMW X5 xDrive30i E70 made in USA
Audi has a factory in India making A4, will you be told when they switch from Germany?
Audi Q7 Made in Slovakia
Previous Benz C class in China (new one is Germany...guess what that huge factory in China is for?)
Benz ML500 W164 in USA
Benz C180 Kompressor Elegance W203 made in Sth Africa
Benz C200 Kompressor Avantgarde W203 made in Sth Africa
Honda Civic VTi-L made in Thailand
Honda Accord V6 made in Thailand
Honda CRV Made in Thailand
Honda Jazz made in Thailand
etc etc
I don't mean finding some manufacturer plate in some obscure part of an eng bay or translating some VIN number code to find country of origin, I mean a sticker on the windscreen saying - "Yes this is a high priced car from a brand located in a country with high standards, Geramny...but this car is made in the HIV riddled country of South Africa"
An enquiry with ACCC proved useless as they don't require anything to label where it is made. So I ask perhaps rhetorically why is it cars are excused and it is ok to deceive (by brand association with a country) the consumer.
Good point, but almost every car could say - assembled in Australia from imported components. Even a 3.2 Alfa 159 could say it has an Australian engine block built by an American owned Company. I think it is a little too complicated to simply stamp one country of origin on a complex machine that incorporates parts manufactured all over the world.
Additionally, not all automobile manufacturers make everything that goes into a car and there are many generic components, such as airbags, where the consumer benefits from having a specialised airbag manaufacturer produce the product, rather than a car company. Even drive train components work the same way, ZF automatic gearboxes can be found in BMW, Alfa Romeo, Jaguar, Peugot and Ford vehicles while they are manufactured in South Africa, Brazil and Germany.
So, all in all, it's a nice thought but there are very few cars designed and manufactured from components made in just one country. The Ford Falcon is probably closest but even there, Ford is American owned.
Hey prova im in the car industrie as im your everyday salesmen who wants to be the best haha.
also im only 18 just starting of the sales career and i am currently working at CITY FORD. Our Fiesta and Focus have where they are made on a white sticker under the bonnet i do believe. well a focus is built completely in germany well as the focus is built in germany :) but it is all in writing:) not sure why none of the other cars we have say it though.
What are you on about?
The 3.0 GTV6 was made in South Africa.
Right-hand drive production post-1960
In the 60s, the main Alfa Romeo seat was moved from inside Milan to a very large and nearby area extending over the municipalities of Arese, Lainate and Garbagnate Milanese. However, since then the Alfa seat is known to be in Arese, since the offices and the main entrance of the area are there.
In the late 1960s, a number of European automobile manufacturers established facilities in South Africa to assemble right hand drive vehicles. Fiat and other Italian manufacturers established factories along with these other manufacturers, Alfa-Romeos were assembled in Brits, outside of Pretoria in the Transvaal Province of South Africa. With the imposition of sanctions by western powers in the 1970s and 1980s, South Africa became self sufficient, and in car production came to rely more and more on the products from local factories.
This led to a remarkable set of circumstances where between 1972 and 1989, South Africa had the greatest number of Alfa Romeos on the road outside of Italy.
John
Quote from: JOHN G on January 18, 2010, 02:32:04 PM
What are you on about?
ditto
I should clear up something JOHN G, firstly I am talking "Vehicles delivered to Australia by the official importer". There by excluding cars assembled in CKD form in foreign countries for that country or surrounding region only. Hell I've been to the factory in Thailand where it was being contracted to assemble 156's for local asian market only - but not export to Europe or Australia.
Secondly NigelC, I may have confused you with making mention of "country of orgin", when all I want is "Made in _ _ _ _" labelling - where has it been put together. And none of the components origin apply in that case. Just like they don't for every manufactured item imported into Australia like washing machines, PC's, lawn mowers, sewing machines, blenders, vaccum cleaners etc etc (with exception of FTA requirements).
The question remains unanswered...why are motor cars virtually the only item excluded from displaying in it's retail form it's "Made in...." description? If anyone has the actual answer I really want to know.
Ex Nissan Salesman,
Nissan D40 Navara- made in Spain from Renault derived platforms and parts.
Ditto for R51 Pathfinder.
Nissan D22 Navara- made in Japan with Nissan derived platforms and parts.
Nissan Tiida – Series one built in England [as well as the last of the Pulsars.]
Nissan Tiida – series two made in Thialand.
The plot thickens!
But yeah prova "why are motor cars virtually the only item excluded from displaying in it's retail form it's "Made in...." description?
...seems a source of some embarasment to those big boys in the Vehicle Manufacturing Industry
I tend to agree with NigelC. Perhaps it's because unlike most consumer products cars can be an assembly of components made from all over the globe. You could argue that putting a 'Made in XXX-land' sticker on something which has is designed in Belgium, has an American engine, German gearbox, suspension components from Australia, a glovebox lid from New Zealand, ECU and software from Fiji (yes I'm making this example up) is equalling misleading. Falcadores have historically been openly promoted as 'Made In Australia' yet the actual local content in them has fluctuated over the years, on ocassion dropping to lower than locally built Toyotas.
Thanks for the South African history lesson John, I knew SA had a strong industry there but never knew why. There were some interesting cars coming out of there during the 80's - I remember BMW building a 333i using the 3.2 litre six, and didn't Ford put a 5.0 V8 into the Suierra for homologation purposes?
Rory
Maybe it's just a Australian thing, that they change the manufacturers plate for a local compliance plate.
From what I can remember all the cars I owned in South Africa had plates or stickers on saying where they were assembled i.e. Uitenhage plant, Rosslyn plant etc. The Escort I owned in Ireland had a UK plate and the Peugeot had a France plate.
I've only owned two cars in Australia so far, the Falcon doesn't say where it was built and the Vectra has a Australia compliance plate but other stickers in German.
Wrt to the South African 'specials' there were quite a few due to the sanctions against South Africa and the weaker Rand.
Most if not all were built for racing.
The BMW 333 had a 3.3ltr motor from the 733i, the 733i's then got 4.5 motors to make the 745i.
A few others were the 3.0 GTV6's with six single choke carbs,
Giulia ti's and Rallye's although I'm not sure these were unique to SAfrica,
Ford Capri Perana with a 302 V8,
Ford Granada Perana,
Chev Firenza Canam with a 308 V8,
Ford Sierra XR8 with a 302 V8,
Cortina XR6 with British 3.0 Essex motor.
Because practically every manufacturer had or has a factory in Safrica we also used to get some unique run of the mill models eg. the VW Golf Mk1 Gti was a two door for the rest of the world whereas in SAfrica it was only sold as a four door.
From what I've seen, probably because of the Brits factory in SAfrica there seems to be a lot more 105 series cars still around in South Africa, although there are a lot less 75's, 90's and 164's. There are still quite a few 116 series cars on the road.
Ryan
Hey hey, this is a HUGE topic and I think ProvaRacing is on the money. Money being the operative word here. It helps to be a Grey Nomad to know this but how many of you can remember when goods were bought on the basis of the country of origin? That is to say, since the start of the Industrial Revolution, certain countries developed better techniques than others when manufacturing goods either cheaper or better and sometimes cheaper and better.
Some countries were renowned for making top quality items such as British , German and American tools. Swiss watches and chocolates.The Japanese were known to make absolute crap but dirt cheap with eye appeal. So the customer loyalty started to follow the quality source to certain countries for commodities they required knowing with reasonable certainty that the goods they were buying would meet a high standard and the very reputation of the country depended upon this image.
Sure enough before too long the bean counters arrived on the scene and so it came to pass that a new wisdom would arise where the price of everything was paramount and quality became incidental under the assumption that customer loyalty to the brand would remain as long as the location of the manufacture was kept under raps..Enter, ProvaRacing
So what we have today is a sort of unofficial fraud taking place except it's to too big to fix much like the recent financial implosion
Surely it's only fraud if someone is making a claim that is not correct - who exactly is doing that here? Sounds overly conspiracy-theoretical to me. I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about consumer assumption, and if this is based on outdated paradigms then you can hardly blame the manufacturer. In any case, that's a comparatively rare situation these days as consumers are better informed and do more pre-buying research than ever before.
While motor vehicles do not state country of origin, genuine branded OEM parts must state it on the original packaging as part of an ACCC ruling from about 5 years ago. Until then a local supplier could potentially brand their parts as 'Made in Australia' even if it components in it were imported or manufactured elsewhere.
The way in which its goverened is that a supplier will fill in a declaration of country of origin based on where the largest percentage of manufacturing occurs in a submission to the vehicle manufacturer during the parts development phase, in the event it is sold as a serviceable item branded as a geniune product.
And because a car is a sum of its parts like Rory & Nigel C have said it would be difficult or misleading to clearly state Made in Australia, would probably read manufactured in Australia from imported components.
The comment about fluctuating local content is true, the previous generation Toyotas had a local content of 77%, the current generation has dropped to just under 70% as a result of greater use of global parts
youd probaly find the VE Commodore to have a signifiantly lower local content than its VZ predecessor due to a lot of components being sourced from offshore, so its all about the dollar guys - bottom line.
I agree Pep105 - I work in for a German manufacturing company and 85% of our production is now done in Asia. Way of the world.
Interesting topic indeed.
Image is king and make no mistake about it. Consumers have an affinity to brands be it clothes, soft drinks or cars. There is a perception that quality is tied to a brand and brand is tied to a country rightly or wrongly and so the place of origin is important to consumers. The perfect example is Asian market. The upwardly mobile and those that are well healed do not buy locally made cars. They prefer European machinery even though Toyota has beaten Mercedes Benz hands down for reliability and quality control.
Just to test your own position of this issue ask yourself this question:
A Mercedes model costing $120,000 is totally made in Germany and also in China. Which one would you buy?
My personal position is this. I am happy to buy my brand of car made anywhere provided the quality control and the skill level is there to manufacture it. However the price of the car should reflect the cost of the el cheapo labour market it came from and of course therein lies the whole reason why they don't tell you where it's made because cheap goods cheapen the brand and put a lot less in the coffers....that's no conspiracy, just simple logic.
Gentlemen,
105's,106's came into the country with "Made in Italy" as a sticker inside the front door, left side here I think. Why not have some made if that is what you want.
Jim
Quotethat's no conspiracy, just simple logic.
I agree, as long as you're not calling it fraud. :)
Yes I thought this subject would provoke interesting debate. Though some not so relevant. The question I asked on "Made in (insert country)" has nothing to do with origin of it's components, "local" content, Sth Africa etc.
I wanted to know why motor vehicle comsumers in Australia can be misled by the car companies importing cars into Australia.
It isn't the ACCC that requires "Made in Australia" infact they don't require any labelling. All they say is that the consumer not be intentionally deceived. My question to them was - when a car company puts out the press kit on release stating the new BMW/MERC is being built in Germany...and at year 2 of that same model it switches to Sth Africa/China is that not misleading? They could not answer it now but if that situation arises they will look at it. So as it has in the past, why not avoid it and help consumers by labelling WHICH COUNTRY THE CAR WAS PUT TOGETHER i.e. BUILT so when it changes the consumer won't call it deception, misleading or fraud!
And yes the reasons mentioned are correct, MD it is about money, yes WETPRICKLES it is embarrassing and thats why they want to avoid it...especially high ticket German companies. Pep105 no it isn't any different to a washing machine or any manufactured item - the components come from many different countries yet the complete finished item is still required to show "Made in _ _ _ _ _". Local content, origin of parts etc have to do with import duty and free trade agreements etc not what I am calling for. Just want cars to be labelled like a vacuum cleaner!
Quote from: MD on January 19, 2010, 08:04:13 AM
Just to test your own position of this issue ask yourself this question:
A Mercedes model costing $120,000 is totally made in Germany and also in China. Which one would you buy?
And here is the issue with the C-Class Mercedes, they got hammered in China with terrible local sales figures for their China made version - why? Because Chinese with money don't want their expensive Euro (status symbol) cars made by their "looked down on" brothers - ironic. And thus my point on this topic, up until now Alfa Romeo has been importing cars Made in Italy and gets little kudos yet it's competitors switch production midstream and make their cars in developing (old third world country label) and still charge huge retail prices - if I was looking to buy, in Australia, a Euro brand car made in Sth Africa I would expect a 30% discount, from China 50%. The consumer should be permitted to know just as the Customs dept insists a doll in a Two dollar shop display "Made in China".
Quote from: jg1053 on January 19, 2010, 08:28:29 AM
Gentlemen,
105's,106's came into the country with "Made in Italy" as a sticker inside the front door, left side here I think. Why not have some made if that is what you want.
Jim
And so I did a few years ago...
Bit of a non-issue in my eyes really. My feeling is that if it's important to the individual to know where a particular car is built then find out before you buy. If it offends your principles that the company is making greater profits through cheaper labour then vote with your feet and buy something else. If a company is doing wrong by their customers the market will soon tell them.
Cheers all
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 19, 2010, 09:52:35 AM
And so I did a few years ago...
you should get these made up and sell them... great sticker
I think the only reason this should bother anybody is if they believe their product is inferior because of where it's made.
Using the examples in this thread, if the German built C-Class and the Chinese built version were side by side, could you tell the difference? Is the driving experience any different between the German Golf and the Sth African one?
To my thinking, you are paying for the engineering and R&D that went in to the design of the car and it's components, which, as has been said, are manufacturered all over the world.
I can't really see the difference if it was Klaus or Chun Wee that turned the spanner to put them on.
Besides the fact that these days it's usually a robot that puts the cars together.
Do you want to know where the robot was built?
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 19, 2010, 09:52:35 AM
. Just want cars to be labelled like a vacuum cleaner!
Quote from: MD on January 19, 2010, 08:04:13 AM
All cars must come with 17 digit vin number that has all the info reguarding its production, engine size trans etc
In the case of Nissan, vins starting with V- Built in spain J-Japan, S-UK, M-Thailand
So really every car is labelled with a made in" "
Hmmm...haven't seen a vacuum cleaner yet that has a 17 digit vin number...just a "Made in Cazzo" label. And for your benefit meizhak in case you missed my opening post
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 19, 2010, 09:52:35 AM
I mean on any product it has to be seen clearly in type face large enough to read on the pack or product as it is sold to a consumer. Yet the motor industry manage to hide this from consumers, I am sure many people would like to know (or maybe they wouldn't) that;
"shortened quote"
I don't mean finding some manufacturer plate in some obscure part of an eng bay or translating some VIN number code to find country of origin, I mean a sticker on the windscreen....
Quote from: L4OMEO on January 19, 2010, 10:18:36 AM
Bit of a non-issue in my eyes really. My feeling is that if it's important to the individual to know where a particular car is built then find out before you buy. If it offends your principles that the company is making greater profits through cheaper labour then vote with your feet and buy something else. If a company is doing wrong by their customers the market will soon tell them.
Cheers all
;
Fair enough...so it would be ok then to remove all "Made in _ _ _ _" labelling on everything, including canned food etc. As you said let the market tell them if they aren't happy...except the people are wanting more labelling including knowning where their fresh produce comes from. Like the Chinese origin crops using human faeces as fertiliser (read about it its true).
Quote from: f1worldchamp on January 19, 2010, 02:09:53 PM
I think the only reason this should bother anybody is if they believe their product is inferior because of where it's made.
Using the examples in this thread, if the German built C-Class and the Chinese built version were side by side, could you tell the difference? Is the driving experience any different between the German Golf and the Sth African one?
To my thinking, you are paying for the engineering and R&D that went in to the design of the car and it's components, which, as has been said, are manufacturered all over the world.
I can't really see the difference if it was Klaus or Chun Wee that turned the spanner to put them on.
Besides the fact that these days it's usually a robot that puts the cars together.
Do you want to know where the robot was built?
Now in the many years I've been in auto industry I have seen welding, corrossion dipping, painting and even component delivery to the operator but I am yet to see a robot that assembles engines, gearbox/transmission, diffs, drive shafts and plug them into the car etc etc. The bits that can loosened etc. Nor fit the door and roof trim, dash, seats etc You know the bits that creak with time. But hell yeah I want to know where this brilliant robot is built!
Now if you are telling me given the choice between a Klaus built or Chun Lee built over $100K German branded car you would choose the one that Mr Chang, Mr Chou and Mr Xie rejected themselves - well I do believe in being open minded...but so open as to be out of ones mind...no
BTW When I mentioned reference to HIV riddled Sth Africa it comes from a sister company setup over there and their biggest unknown was how many assemby workers would be turning up each day and keeping consistant skill levels due to illness (and death) from the spread of HIV...wasn't/isn't a joke...sadly true.
Anyway looks like there is no reasonable answer as to why the motor car is excluded, exempted and allowed to be a mystery as to which country it is made because it should be just like a Sweedish branded vacuum cleaner with an Italian motor clearly showing "Made in Sweden". Thanks for your participation guys.
ProvaRacing-Somebody needs to buy you a beer man. !!
Rory, how does this sit with you :
You buy a well know Australian brand of shirt. You support Australian made goods and the local retailers.
The label is Australian, it says it's made in Australia, it's sold in an Australian store and not over the internet so where is the deception?
It lies in the very shirt itself because :
The fabric is imported
The dye in the fabric is foreign
The cotton thread used to make it is foreign
The buttons are foreign
The cardboard box that it came is foreign
So how is it Australian made? Wouldn't that just piss you off a little knowing that you are patriotic and paid through the nose to get this shirt but all the while it is only assembled in Australia?
Badge engineering and straight faced lies are the order of the day these days.
Leaving aside the slightly bizarre comparison of t-shirts to automobiles, I think that anyone who makes a presumption on where a product is made based on the history, or origins, or brand values, or whatever about the company itself, is an idiot. In these days of globalisation your 'Aussie' product could be made anywhere, most likely where it can be done cheaper because that's how the company stays competitive. It's business, which means yes, it's about money, and we can all like or lump that.
In any case, most car manufacturers make plenty of noise about the fact they assemble on several continents and this is highly reported in the media. So where's the deception?
I don't really care where products come from as long as I'm satisfied with them and they do what they say on the box.
If you're offering to buy me a beer I'll have a Heineken (that's the Belgian beer which is made in 113 countries in the world but is brewed to higher quality standards in NZ than the home country). ;D ;D ;D
Sorry Rory I'm all outta beers but I got a couple of corks left over if you're interested. ;D
Now look what you made me do ! I've gone form cars to corks- totally way off topic.
I think I need a drink myself...
Exit stage left...
One of these days we should get together and separate a few corks from a few bottles. I reckon the conversation might be interesting!
Cheers mate, take care
Rory
just like to share my opinion & what i have experienced as a mechanic working in the dealership network
if you think that where the car is assembled does not matter on the quality of the car you are kidding yourself
i worked for a honda dealer when they changed from accord cars being built in japan to america
wow what a difference this only lasted 6 months & they stopped coming from america due to massive complaints & dissatisfied customers
i also worked for a toyota dealership when they were getting corollas from south africa & japan for the same car
south african cars had much more brittle plastic as dash parts & was very difficult to remove pieces with out damage
they also had softer metal for the brake rotors & would not last more than 30,000 kms
i think that it is not right if two people buy the exact same car one would be forced to have extra maintainance cost
because it was assembled in another country
so in conclusion in my opinion it does matter where the car is manufactured.
In days of old when knights were bold and women wore padlocks on their undies, Volkswagen had a plant in Melbourne making the renowned Beetle. They eventually shut the plant down for a very basic reason. Local workers and contractors couldn't (or wouldn't) produce the required quality cost effectively. For every quality control inspector employed by GMH at the time, Volkswagen had four.
Instead of compromising the quality of the product, the company pulled out of Oz.
Of course the workforce was much more unionised at the time and so there were quasi political issues tied into the lack of worker committment that would have had a bearing on the whole thing.
So does it matter where its made, absolutely !
Gentlemen,
I don't argue with either of your posts. As I said earlier:
QuoteMy feeling is that if it's important to the individual to know where a particular car is built then find out before you buy
Rory
Quote from: L4OMEO on January 19, 2010, 06:54:14 PM
If you're offering to buy me a beer I'll have a Heineken (that's the Belgian beer which is made in 113 countries in the world but is brewed to higher quality standards in NZ than the home country). ;D ;D ;D
Its Dutch.
You may be thinking of Stella. The beer that has been brewed in Australia for a while now, yet doesn't taste much like Stella.
Heineken is also brewed in Australia and yes, tastes very unlike Heineken. Actually it tastes very much like Australian Stella.
Both taste like Carlton. This would be fine if they were Carlton. However they are not. This is not fine.
NZ Heineken may be produced to a higher standard than the original variety. However, that doesn't count for much if it doesn't actually taste like Heineken. Not that I have tried NZ Heineken. I am sure its very nice.
Ever tried Australian Camembert or Brie cheese? The types often featuring a gold label telling the world of an award the cheese won? It is a big no-no in Australia to manufacture these cheeses exactly as in France.
Ever tried French Camembert or Brie? Unlike the Australian versions, they actually taste quite different to each other. One tastes and smells like Camembert. The other has a very Brie-like flavour and aroma. And the French don't have to point out how fine their cheese is. Its accepted as common knowledge.
Its not necessarily where stuff is made that matters but how and with what level of craftsmanship and pride.
I agree with you L4OMEO. "I don't really care where products come from as long as I'm satisfied with them and they do what they say on the box."
Hi-5.
Cheers,
Marco
Quote from: alfagtv100 (Biggus) on January 30, 2010, 12:06:26 AM
NZ Heineken may be produced to a higher standard than the original variety. However, that doesn't count for much if it doesn't actually taste like Heineken. Not that I have tried NZ Heineken. I am sure its very nice.
It tastes like sparkling water with a hint of beer-coloured food dye. A bit like some American beers, typified by Miller. Interestingly enough, Miller is owned by the same company that owns Peroni, a very nice Italian beer, and one I enjoy very much. They're both owned by SABMiller, from the ....
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 17, 2010, 11:23:15 AM
HIV riddled country of South Africa"
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on January 30, 2010, 12:18:04 AM
Quote from: alfagtv100 (Biggus) on January 30, 2010, 12:06:26 AM
NZ Heineken may be produced to a higher standard than the original variety. However, that doesn't count for much if it doesn't actually taste like Heineken. Not that I have tried NZ Heineken. I am sure its very nice.
It tastes like sparkling water with a hint of beer-coloured food dye. A bit like some American beers, typified by Miller. Interestingly enough, Miller is owned by the same company that owns Peroni, a very nice Italian beer, and one I enjoy very much. They're both owned by SABMiller, from the ....
I see. But does it taste like Heineken?
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 17, 2010, 11:23:15 AM
HIV riddled country of South Africa"
Wow. Poor form.
You're right of course Marco, it was Heineken I was talking about but it is Dutch. My bad. I ran a Heineken bar which sold both, so naturally a lot of time was spent camparing the two. The NZ brew did taste like Heineken, but the two were distincytly different. In blind taste tests the NZ brew was generally preferred, I was more partial to the original. Kind of ironic given my stance through the rest of this thread, but hey.
QuoteIt tastes like sparkling water with a hint of beer-coloured food dye. A bit like some American beers, typified by Miller
That's how I would have described Peroni! Everyone tastes things differently, each to their own huh.
Cheers fullas!
Quote from: alfagtv100 (Biggus) on January 30, 2010, 12:35:46 AM
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 17, 2010, 11:23:15 AM
HIV riddled country of South Africa"
Wow. Poor form.
Sadly my statement is accurate and correct but anyway I take it you read all my posts and don't just nit pick? That would be bad form.
Quote from: ProvaRacing on January 19, 2010, 04:24:41 PM
"shortened quote"
BTW When I mentioned reference to HIV riddled Sth Africa it comes from a sister company setup over there and their biggest unknown was how many assemby workers would be turning up each day and keeping consistant skill levels due to illness (and death) from the spread of HIV...wasn't/isn't a joke...sadly true.
"shortened quote"
Wow I must have anticipated people like you.
Being correct and expanding on it later does not make the initial statement any less in bad taste.
Marco did not argue the fact, rather the form.
You arguing about it more or less proves the point that Marco made. Defending the form with the correctness of the fact makes no sense at all when the fact was not in question at any time.
You might as well have said," I'm right and you are wrong, and I am also cleverer and better looking then you lot." Which I'm sure you must be judging by the prevailing arrogant tone of your posts.
You posts seem factually correct and raise valid points but seem to grate some people with the above mentioned tone arrogance.
my suggestion, lighten up and try to understand that it is ok for other people to have differing opinions if they seem silly to you.
Point taken. And I accept the tone of your criticism...I assure you I would never argue I am better looking though :(
PS Can I ask you or anyone else (who has been involved or dealt with Sth Africa and is aware of its problem or read UN or WHO discussion papers) what other word one would use in an "informal forum" to explain the widespread and sad problem? Seriously and sincerely. I stand by what I've said and the only bad form is someones ignorance on the subject. I certainly don't apologise for being correct.
Just to refocus, as valid as these points may be, the core issue is where the car is made. To this end my final contribution is this.
What is it that really gets up my nose?
Is it the suspect quality? Yes
Is it the question of consistency of quality of all the parts in the car? Yes
Is it the supply of future spare parts supplied by some funky sub-assembler? Yes
But the part that goes beyond the nose and up the fooschoo to make the eyes buldge like pipe organ stops is the idea that you can charge the same high price for the car no matter where it's made because the product image will carry the banner having built up the image of a specific country historically. eg. German product made in China.
You make it cheap, sell it cheap. Nothing wrong with that but don't make it cheap and pretend its expensive so you can rip me off. (and I don't want to hear -that's business cause that's a whole new debate on ethics and morals)
Quote.... and I don't want to hear -that's business ....
Well that's quite obvious!
This debate is going round in circles and not achieving anything, I'll leave you to it.
Best of luck guys
Rory