ok so im going to turbo my 2ltr GTV,
i have a thread on the alfa BB but was wanting to get some other opinons and help,
on the net i have found the original turbodelata specs for the dellortos,
turbodelta carb specs - (standard dellortos in brackets)
Choke - 32mm (32mm)
Main Jet - 140 (150)
Main Air Corrector Jet - 230 (210)
Main Emulsion Tube - 7772-14 (7772-11)
Idle Jet - 62 (58)
Float Setting Height -15.0 mm (same)
Float Needle Valve - 150 (150)
Pump Jet - 35 (40)
Starter Jet - 80 (80)
Starter Emulsion Tube - 7482-3 (7482-3)
Pump Delivery - 5cc / 20 strokes (8cc)
so my plane is to build a set of dellortos, buy a intercooler, make a exhaust maifold and inlet plenum and put a t28 turbo on.
i do have a few concerns -
1. regarding compresion ratio - i have been told i dont really need to lower the CR as im running a intercooler and running around 8-9psi is this true? can i use rods out of another alfa to lower CR or do i need to buy new pistons?
2. ignition timing - i have been put on to this by duk on the bb http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&CATID=25&form=CAT&SUBCATID=347
is this all i need? how is it intalled? is this the right thing for me?
also what did original turbodelata use for ignition?
3. i also need advice on a fuel pump?
if people have made a replica turbodleta engine then could you please shed some light over the issue or what you did?
cheers, brad
Hi Brad,
I ran 10psi on the standard 9/1 compression with a supercharger and EFI no probs.
I then built a low compression motor,7/1,by simply using twinspark pistons(flat top) and liners running 15psi boost for 200rwhp.
Cheers
Andrew
Brad, It may be easier to convert the fuel system to run E85 - then you can run a 9 - 10:1 compression ratio and still make 20 psi. re the Jaycar ignition - I have built several of them, for use of Alfa racecars - and they do work, but the ignition "curve" is very rudimentary compared to a modern ECU. This may prove a problem on a turbo car if you need fine control over the curve to keep detonation at bay.
jim ~
cheers, 4 the info guys,
thanks for the offer choderboy but im in SA could you put up a pic of your engine bay? and car?
andrew, was 15psi max boost for ur built motor?
jim sorry for asking a dum question but what is e85? is it a type of fuel?
so do u guys think is hould lower the comp ratio or not?
im gussing i will because as andrew said i can run 15psi as opposed to 10psi on a standerd engine and it a bit safer.
Quote from: BradGTV on October 07, 2009, 10:41:08 PMwhat is e85? is it a type of fuel?
Google/Wiki says ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85)
thanks brad, e85 five sounds good but my only concern is that if only 1900 outlets are across america there wil 0 in south australia.
cheers, brad
u can buy the fuel in 44galon drum. or even elf race fuel.
im planing to use ts rods in the motor. if i add pistons also it will drop to much and im not really planing to run over 20+ psi. and i got told with the pistons i few things has 2 be changed/done to fit them unlike the rods just go st8 in.
brad u after turbo carbies at all?? i have a turbo rebuild kit my self that i was planing to use.
Quote from: BradGTV on October 08, 2009, 08:08:38 AM
0 in south australia.
There is at least 1 ... http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/distributor-e85-locations.asp (http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/distributor-e85-locations.asp)
Also, for reference the Aussie Taxi Championship blasting around the Mountain this weekend uses E85.
stormx - is it ur dellorto turbo kit for sale?
brad - is the price much more than premium? and also what is involved to convert my car to e85?
also do u guys know were i can get ts rods from? (im guessing out of a twinspark ;D)
cheers, brad
Brad, E85 costs approx 99c a litre in Melbourne, at the one and only place that has it as 'pump fuel'. It costs approx $2.00 per litre to buy it in drums from specialty fuel companies.
To convert to E85 "all" you have to do is provide for a fuel flow capacity of approx 1.6 - 2.0x of what would be required in the same application with normal pump gasoline. In a fuel injected car then, you would need to increase the fuel pump capacity, increase the injector flow capacity, increase the fuel line/rail capacity. You need to have some sort of programmable ECU capability so that you can tell the thing to squirt in more fuel as required etc.. In practice racecars converted to E85 use between 1.3 and 1.6 more actual fuel volume. Most modern fuel hose can cope with E85, old hoses all need to be replaced.
The E85 forum (which is of course USA based) has a mountain of info on the conversion process. Mostly for carby cars actually.
cheers, jim ~
ha there u go Tapleys Hill Rd... i heard of some weird fuel at the BP next to adelaide airport not sure of the name tho.
i might be wrong but do ennufe petrol stations sell %85 ??. the one on sailsbury highway (now BP) had this cheap as fuel and u had 2 go in and ask for it as it had a padlock on the pump. we asked if we could put it in my m8s sigma but she said u neede some sort of box/computer.
i might sell my dellerto turbo rebuild seal kit x2. i also i have top hats for the dellerto for sale.
hay BRAD that intercooler kit i was talking about on the alfa BB is like this one pretty much exactly the same
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/TURBO-INTERCOOLER-PIPING-KIT-NISSAN-SILVIA-CA18DET-S13_W0QQitemZ370258254169QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAU_Car_Parts_Accessories?hash=item56351c9959&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
not sure if i will go e85. i think i will just lower the CR and run with premium fuel.
hey storm is your turbo kit similar to this - http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=DHLAturbokit&CategoryID=1&PartsectionID=1 if so where did you get it?
also if i bought this kit is that it for the carbies or do i still have to buy all the diffrent sized jets ect..? (list of sizes in my first post)
yea thats what i have.
yea u still need to buy all the rest. u can run it off the standard jets etc i got told but yea u can just change the jets only and it should b fine. all goes on how much power.
i was just going to kit my delertos that have bigger jets anyway and replace all the shit that needs to be replaced.
how much did that kit cost?
did you by it from dellorto.com or in sa?
na italy i think.
thay arnt cheap all up plus postage $200 for two kits
gem parts on ebay do webber dellorto stuff but a little expensive.
mabye i might sell the intercooler kit turbo rebuild kit and top hats
Hi Brad,
Give me a call on 0439396679 some time. I am turbo charging my Alfetta GT, and can give you plenty of advice. I've turbo'd other things also, so it wont be (all) bad advice ;-).
I also have a set of TS rods and acid dipped pistons. That will sort out your compression ratio. If you are pulling down your engine, you may wisht o consider a few other thigns while you are there. ...which brings me to your budget. If your budget is very low, I would suggest you dont pull down the motor. Instead, spent your money on a good intercooler and like Andrew said, run a stock motor.
By the way, 1.8ltr motors are more resistant to bigger hp due to the thicker liners....so you can run more boost on them....then again, it really depends what hp you are chasing...back to the dirsty word 'budget'.
You can check out what I have been up to at: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/engine-conversions/78130-8v-2l-twin-charged-my-little-project.html
I also have a GT3 garret turbo that came off an autodelta car, and was overhauled by Garret. May be usefull to your build.
cheers
Mike
Hey mike whats the inlet manifold off in your pics on alfabb.
Thmpar is inlet manifold is off a holden camira.
i was just planing to pull the motor down reseal and replace all bearings etc just a nice clean up with the TS rods.
:( i sold my 1.8 that was sitting around for $50 a few months ago. im going to have to look for another one again in the future.
does anyone know of anyone else running a blow through set up that they use as a daily?
hey storm is that ur guiletta at u-pull-it?
cause it has a 1.8,
or u can tri city dismatlers they have about 3 1.8s to choose form but they charge a lot.
was it a dark blue one with dark as tited windows?? if so yea that was mine. the motor in that car started to lose comp i reckon it used to take abit to get it started but it was strong as and went pretty hard. i had to get rid of the car as i dont have space to store anything or i would have kept it as a burnout/drift car or something.
na citys are a rip i wouldnt even go there.
my m8 has a giulietta that has 2.0gtv running gear in it that he said i can take for free but the motor is Seized up.
yer the car was dark blue,
yer city dismantlers are a rip, one day they wanted $500 for a gtv6 bonnet the next they want $650 :(
and $1500 for a motor hahaha.
so storm what alfas do still have?
ha yea they gave me $50 fir the blue car.
citys told me $2200 full running gear i said the car isnt even worth that much. and tey buy there cars for like $50
i only have the one giulietta atm. and a hk kingswood at my parents.
ok so back on topic,
now for igntion timing, http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&CATID=25&form=CAT&SUBCATID=347 has been suggested on the bb by duk, once bought how is it installed? and how is it tuned?
i have been reading various other car forums about blow thru carbies,
now there is a lot of diffrent views on them, some say u can run them standard to 9psi (i dont believe this) but is it true?
and that if you put a kit such as this http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=DHLAturbokit&CategoryID=1&PartsectionID=1 it will also be ok?
but then dellortos such as the autodelta have all diffrent jets, tubes ect..
so what do u guys think or know will work?
copy the autodelta carbies? put the conversion kit on? or?
cheers, brad
hey brad
not sure if you've been down this path, but you could send dellorto an email asking about pressures and jets etc. if they are any good they should be able to steer you in the right direction.
hi scuzzygtv, yer i have just sent of an email regarding the kits, but they replied saying the kits are missing some peices that are now out of manifaction :(
hey storm do u have a link or something for ur turbo kits??????
cheers, brad
Quote from: BradGTV on October 12, 2009, 04:52:58 PM
hi scuzzygtv, yer i have just sent of an email regarding the kits, but they replied saying the kits are missing some peices that are now out of manifaction :(
hey storm do u have a link or something for ur turbo kits??????
cheers, brad
nup no link sorry.
if u seal it good with the propper kit im sure u can run upto 1bar 14.7PSI
Quote from: BradGTV on October 11, 2009, 08:00:10 PM
ok so back on topic,
now for igntion timing, http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=KC5442&CATID=25&form=CAT&SUBCATID=347 has been suggested on the bb by duk, once bought how is it installed? and how is it tuned?
i have been reading various other car forums about blow thru carbies,
now there is a lot of diffrent views on them, some say u can run them standard to 9psi (i dont believe this) but is it true?
and that if you put a kit such as this http://www.dellorto.co.uk/merchandise/products_details.asp?PartNo=DHLAturbokit&CategoryID=1&PartsectionID=1 it will also be ok?
but then dellortos such as the autodelta have all diffrent jets, tubes ect..
so what do u guys think or know will work?
copy the autodelta carbies? put the conversion kit on? or?
cheers, brad
im not sure with the jay car thing either but u buy the power fc hand held thing and u plug it in and u can change the curve ETC ETC.
the thing i want to know is will a map sensor plug into it and can i program it to change the timing as the boost gets higher???
autodelata and stock carbs are pretty close specs aint they ?
storm if u look at the first page of this thread i have put up the specs of the autodelat and stock alfa 2 ltr.
brad
Quote from: BradGTV on October 12, 2009, 06:21:29 PM
storm if u look at the first page of this thread i have put up the specs of the autodelat and stock alfa 2 ltr.
brad
they pretty close. take then to EFI the little work shop next to citys. they are carbie and EFI experts.
not cheap tho. for a non turbo rebuild kit and they recon the carbies like $220 each. i asked how much just to tune thay said $60 bux i was like wtf? just tue turn a few screws.
but yea im no expert on the carbies
60 bux for a tune is pretty good imo especially if they are going to synchronise them too. having said that i find it hard to believe they will get them right for 60 bux. it was always my impression that the reason some people didnt think much of the alfas back in the day was because of the fact that these cars were a little bit more tricky to get right, tuning wise, and the "she'll be right" attitude amongst certain mechanics. before i learnt to fiddle with these cars and whilst i was very young i too fell down this pit fall of paying the money and not having the car run much better.
Quote from: Storm_X on October 12, 2009, 06:51:54 PM
not cheap tho. for a non turbo rebuild kit and they recon the carbies like $220 each. i asked how much just to tune thay said $60 bux i was like wtf? just tue turn a few screws.
It's like anything buddy, you're not paying for them to turn a few screws, you're paying for their years of experience at turning screws. Money well spent, $60 is F.A. for that service.
Quote from: Sheldon Mcintosh on October 12, 2009, 08:01:27 PM
Quote from: Storm_X on October 12, 2009, 06:51:54 PM
not cheap tho. for a non turbo rebuild kit and they recon the carbies like $220 each. i asked how much just to tune thay said $60 bux i was like wtf? just tue turn a few screws.
It's like anything buddy, you're not paying for them to turn a few screws, you're paying for their years of experience at turning screws. Money well spent, $60 is F.A. for that service.
im pretty sure they are ment to use special guages so every cylinder/carbie is exacltly the same but i think these guys will just turn the screws and then "oh yea she`ll be allite"
finally some progress,
today i purchased a bradnew t3/t4 turbo, stainless exhaust manifold, and a boost gauge,
the manifold is of a old toyota motor but the seller said i was 5 mm out at eac end of the alfa head, so i will cut and reweld them so the maifold fitts and make a new flange,
i now have 2 options, either get a turbo rebuilt kit like this - http://www.motorcyclecarbs.com/Dellorto_DHLA_Turbo_Conversion_P15508C2139.cfm - for around $200 or bye a pair of turbo dellortos from bennicas for $480
what do u guys think??
brad
i have most of my parts know and only a few issuses yet to address -
what do i do for ignition timing?? ??
electric dizzy?
will it be ok on the standard dizzy?
what does the turbodelta have?
please help me this is not my area of expertise,
brad
just a quick note, you said the seller of the manifold said it was only a few mm off the alfa head spacings, but what about the head angle? for instance a twinspark head vs a nord head angle, the manifolds cant be interchanged. just make sure you double check this before you get down to bolting it up and find you cant use it after all. easier to do now rather than later.
Good going Brad, I have read that the ozi Delta's had locked dizzy's, although I could be wrong. I am considering doing the same upgrade to my 116 so will be watching your build eagerly.
May I ask how much you paid for your recent t3 turbo, manifold and boost guage purchase?
Cheers,
Nico
Nico,
Deltas were locked. Less bad (less destruction of pistons) than stock advance curve, but still bad (driveability sux).
Delta stock tune isn't great and will be less great as you make any change to anything else (turbo, manifolds, compression, anything)
Storm, $60 tune is probably with about um - $60... You are kidding????
since i have my other motor out at the momment i am using it to make a flange template, and looking at the alfa head is on a fair angle but this will only mean that the manifold will slant back as well, ans there are no clearence issues, and also with making a new flange i will prpopably have to cut up part of the manifold and get it re-welded so i can make alteraions to its design.
ok so i cant run my standaed dizzy as it wil give me bad driveability and more chance of detonation,
what is the silution?
i have decided to buy a turbo conversion kit from storm_x so the dellortos are all sourted out,
exhaust 2.5" or 3"??
the turbo and bits added up to ruffley $500 plus postage.
u might need to heat and bend it to get the correct angle.
i dont think u can run a stock dizzy. just look around for a electronic dizzy. i knew a guy that was selling one i will try to contact him for you want. oh and yea buy that jaycar unit and plug that to the electronic dizzy and tune it.
im going 2.5". 3" is to big i reckon
Get a quote from performance ignition services to take your dizzy and electronic-ify it including fitting boost retard. Buy a decent coil off them as well. It is simple and it works well enough.
What are you doing for fuel pump and regulator?
darryl thanks for the advice i will look them up,
also that was my next question
what to do about fuel pump and regulator?
i have been told i need 1psi over my boost psi to stop the fuel getting pushed back up the lines is this correct?
do they make a regaltor that comes on with boost?
brad
Quote from: BradGTV on October 20, 2009, 07:23:47 AM
do they make a regaltor that comes on with boost?
Called a rising rate fuel pressure regulator. Dunno if you can get them for carby systems though, normally used in EFI setups to replace the standard item....
You need something that will give you about 5psi (standard fuel pressure above atmo for a NA carb) and "track" boost - so a 1:1 regulator is what you want. Be careful though - you need to be able to set the pressure above boost down to that 5psi or so level - a rising rate reg designed for EFI will give you too much pressure. The "standard" thing to use for this job is a Malpassi regulator - they make a few different models, make sure you get one designed for a blow-through carb setup that will allow you to set the pressure this low. You need to feed that with a pump that will pump ok at a pressure a reasonable margin above the max boost you are running - but any reasonably rated EFI pump should do that.
Quote from: Storm_X on October 19, 2009, 10:40:04 AM
im going 2.5". 3" is to big i reckon
It most certainly isn't. I know guys using them on 1.3 turbos for power gains over 2.5" systems. Considering they are making 300 fwhp.......
300hp is alot more then 200 and less. im thinking 3" dump into 2.5 or 2.5 in 2.25
Whats up Storm,
You've gone all conservative on power output all of a sudden?
i never said that.
i was just saying 3" for a car putting out 300hp is ok but 200is fine for a 2.5".
to get from 200hp to 300 hp takes alot of work
How goes this build? Lets see some pics :-).
On the subject of exhaust diameter, it's definitly horses for courses. 3inch is a good size for 300horse, I agree, and 3inch is a good size for 200 horse also...BUT...3inch weighs more than a 2inch system and at 200hp, maybe you make 5more hp for going the bigger exhaust....hardly worth thew weight and expense. Of course, I've never met a man that hasn't modded his car to a certain level and then proceeded to chase more power. I for one would only want to pay for an exhaust once, so would tend to lean toward 3inch. Out of interest, where are you routing a 3inch exhaust? Certainly not up over the axle in an Alfetta gtv thats for sure. Mines a side pipe, cuts down on weight, and avoids me burning brakes, box oil, lines and rubbers. Just a thought.
I will have my turbodelta shortly and will take a look see at what has been done to the dizzy if you like. I have also heard they are locked, which makes sense, don't want advance being wound in when boost comes on! I recall a rule of thumb being to remove 2degrees for every pound of boost. Did you ever work out your new comp ratio? what fuel do you want to be able to run on? Your turbo appears to be oversized for the kind of boost I imagine you will run (like 10 psi max with those rods?). Do you know what the curves are for the turbo? Wheres the surge line? Gotta be careful with this stuff or you end up with a broken motor real fast. Hopefully you are all over it.
As for your carbie tune, no way are you going to get them tuned properly for 60bucks. The car needs to go on a dyno, otherwise how are they going to know what the fuel and ignition are doing through the range? I've tuned webbers on the dyno before...it's time consuming mucking aruond with emulsion tubes and jetting....how many different jets will you have? Make sure you have a good assortment so you can mix and match. Emulsion tubes are expensive now so you probably wont have the luxury of a few of these suckers!
Hopefully I am not coming over too negative, just seen a lot of stuff ups in turbo builds.
Nice louver tool by the way, does a great job.
so...
in the last few weeks have managed to get all steam pipe ready to be welded into a 4 into 1 manifold. cut out the flange so it a bit more atractive, rebuilt the dellortos with turbo kits (exept the spindle seals still need to confirm how there done).
been reading some doggey vw buggy forums and several times a boost retard module has been mentioned, i have also heard of it on the benecia turbo motors. sounds like a good invetion! it been described that when boost come on the dizzy automaticly retards the igntion, and it has a boost line from the manifold. does anyone have experience with this?
thanks brad
*drool*
Quote from: BradGTV on January 09, 2010, 10:06:47 PM
been reading some doggey vw buggy forums and several times a boost retard module has been mentioned, i have also heard of it on the benecia turbo motors. sounds like a good invetion! it been described that when boost come on the dizzy automaticly retards the igntion, and it has a boost line from the manifold. does anyone have experience with this?
thanks brad
ive got a dizzy witha boost retard.
Quote from: Mike on December 15, 2009, 09:50:32 PM
I will have my turbodelta shortly and will take a look see at what has been done to the dizzy if you like. I have also heard they are locked, which makes sense, don't want advance being wound in when boost comes on! I recall a rule of thumb being to remove 2degrees for every pound of boost. Did you ever work out your new comp ratio? what fuel do you want to be able to run on? Your turbo appears to be oversized for the kind of boost I imagine you will run (like 10 psi max with those rods?). Do you know what the curves are for the turbo? Wheres the surge line? Gotta be careful with this stuff or you end up with a broken motor real fast. Hopefully you are all over it.
The only problem with generic statements like "2 degrees per pound of boost......" is that it doesn't allow you to tune for what your particular engine want. There are examples of a engines tolerating factory type ignition advance angles with a few pounds of boost. If you removed 2 degrees per pound, already you would be at 6 degrees less and have lost a heap of torque.
And as for locked timing distributors......... Well, people worked with what they had back in the day. We have and know much more now, so why would anybody massively compromise their overall results with such a set up.
As I suggested to StormX on Alfa BB, use a programmable form of 3 dimensional ignition timing controller. That will give you the best opportunity to get really good overall results with every opportunity to avoid detonation.
I'd much rather have an over fueled carby turbo engine (because it couldn't achieve correct AFR's in every situation) with proper 3D ignition timing control, than a correctly tuned, fuel injected turbo engine and a locked advanced distributor (or the equivalent tune in the ignition map).
Quote from: Mike on December 15, 2009, 09:50:32 PMI've tuned webbers on the dyno before...
Mmmmmmmmmmm dyno tuned barbecue's! You can taste the extra performance ;)
Storm, how's the turbine wheel? If it's a good turbo, I think you'll love it's response on the Alfa donk (with good tuning ;D).
Quote from: Mike on December 15, 2009, 09:50:32 PM
Storm, how's the turbine wheel? If it's a good turbo, I think you'll love it's response on the Alfa donk (with good tuning ;D).
What do you mean hows the turbine wheel ? If you mean how much shaft play It is still pretty good no give besides the normal really and i might even get another one that was only just rebuilt. Im only using a rb20 turbo to start off with once its all running good etc im going to upgrade. I know it will have awsome responce but im planing to run 15PSI.
The ceramic turbine wheels can get chipped/damaged pretty easy. They are plenty strong, but don't suffer impact (no turbo will). I wrecked a good turbo like that when I tried to take the turbine housing off.
If it's a good turbo, it should survive 15psi for ages. The old 'Ceramic turbine wheel and 15psi' stigma is more related to turbine speed than anything else. 15psi on an RB20 with it's well flowing 4 valves per cylinder head will require a higher turbine speed than a standard head Alfa engine will at 15psi. Just another mis-interpretation that was sprouted off in magazines, accepted as gospel and perpetuated by word of mouth and forums.