Last week acquired my 1st Alfa Romeo, its a GTV 2L 84 model. Previously owned by a forum member, alfaholic.
It drove well when driving it home, so was happy as Larry.
Was hoping to take it to a weighbridge this morning, but no go, would not start. So I think to myself, lets go through the motions and find out whats going on.
Spark: checked.... :)
Fuel: nope. pulled the fuel line at the Dellorto, crank her over, still no fuel. pulled the fuel line before the fuel filter, still no fuel.
Its obvious that it must be the mechanical fuel pump. Yes, there is fuel in it.
Now, question time. Are these fuel pumps common to fault. Is there a simple check procedure?
I did pull the pump out and there was no obvious signs of a problem, the pin/rod that connects the pump to the engine is in good condition.
If I need to change the pump, where in Brisbane can I get one? Or is there some one in Brisbane who can lend me one to test with? I hate buying things and then finding out that wasnt the problem.
All input is much appreciated.
Could your fuel gauge be faulty? ie reading full when the tank is empty
That was the 1st thing I checked, so I put another 6L of fuel in it just in case. There is fuel, just not pumping out from the fuel pump out hose.
Have you checked you fuel fillter? This may be blocked.
Got any pics of you new drive?
Cheers
I assumed that the funny thing after the fuel pump was the fuel filter. Is there a normal type of fuel filter before the fuel pump that maybe block?
I am trying to not buy a new fuel pump because I am only wanting to drive the car to a weighbridge and then the petrol engine is coming out and being replaced by BATTERIES and an ELECTRIC motor. I hope this doesnt upset too many die hard Alfa people.
Some pics;
WHAT!?
"converted" my a***...
(Sarcasm)
I personally wouldn't do it, but hey it'l be an interesting build. Make a thread so we can follow it please?
Will do. Ive been looking at a few different makes and models to convert, but I have always had a fascination with the GTV Alfa's. This one seems like a reasonable example to convert.
One thing that has caught me off guard was the transaxle. How does the tailshaft connect/couple to the engine crankshaft? Would love to see a diagram or picture of this.
Oh! By the way, Im not new to modifying/restoring cars. My other project is a 1969 VF hardtop Valiant.
Dont be shy guys, all comments are welcomed.
Go for it I'd say, it's not like this is a rare car. Being an Alfa you do have a responsibility to keep it sporting though. You have to put a proper motor in it, not a wheelchair motor!
The transaxle might be an advantage for you as the clutch is integral to it, this is what it looks like(http://locost7.info/files/suspension/alfa/Transaxle.jpg)
It's connected by a two piece propshaft with rubber doughnuts (http://www.alfetta.dk/Repair/Transaxle.jpg)
The propshaft and doughnuts is a weak point, maybe best not to use it. Maybe you could enlarge the tunnel and stick the motor straight onto the transaxle yoke?
Please keep us updated!
Kris
Thanks Kris, much appreciate the pic and diagram. Aim is for it to be driving on elecric by xmas 2010. So will be slow progress.
I have not decided if this will be a road car or just a drag car as yet?
Does the propshaft bolt straight to the crank shaft?
Quote from: TheConverted on July 30, 2009, 10:10:00 PM
I am trying to not buy a new fuel pump because I am only wanting to drive the car to a weighbridge and then the petrol engine is coming out and being replaced by BATTERIES and an ELECTRIC motor. I hope this doesnt upset too many die hard Alfa people.
Strap a gas can to the roof and have a gravity feed into the carbs then. Can't see anything untoward happening with that solution.
Do you have a goal in terms of weight of batteries and electric motor? I'm guessing they'll be substantially weightier than the standard engine?
If all you want to do is weigh it, get it towed there and back....borrow or rent a trailer, surely that would be cheaper and less messing around that the fuel pump.
Sheldon, after I remove the bonnet, would you care to sit in the engine bay and hold the gerry can so we dont spill any fuel?...... :) :) :)
The motor will weigh between 50kg to 70kg approximately, I havent decide as yet on which motor.
Batteries will be the main extra weight, but they will be one of the last things to commit to. Im hoping by that time Lithium Polymer batteries will be reasonably priced. Which will dramatically reduce the weight factor, but will add to the cost and complications to the project.
Phil, yes, I am considering that option.
I just thought it maybe a simple problem to fix. What puzzles me, it drove last week (driving it home when I bought it) without any issues at all.
Is the fuel tank susceptable to getting blocked?
Wanna build a radical Alfa?
Install a steam engine using superheated steam with recovery and fuel it on LPG. 40%energy conversion and almost flat torque. Goes lot further than a neverready flattery... ;D
Interesting MD, an External combustion engine, as aposed to an Internal combustion engine. I might leave that for the next conversion, maybe use a very rare Alfa instead.... ;D
WHY??!!!!!
I hope it is just for fun and your not going to say anything about the environment and emissions!.
Cheers
Andrew
Why not? And yes, it is about the environment. And the fact that I can (hopefully) do it.
How are you going to recharge it?.
Did you try blowing back to the tank from the front,it may have sucked in the sive in the tank.
Cheers
Andrew
I'll anticipate your response by saying, I buy green electricity. Even if one doesnt, still better off with electricity than petrol.
Andrew wrote;
QuoteHow are you going to recharge it?.
If that was a genuine question on how I am going to charge it, you can either have an on board charger in the car or a charger connected to the 240AC outlet in your garage.
Sorry to sound like I am on the back foot and by responding in a aggressive manner. Im anticipating some opposition to my project, which I have no issues with. I enjoy the challenge.
Argh! Good suggestion, will look into it on Sunday.
Is that common a occurance with GTV's?
What a fascinating project...have you heard about the electric Fiat X1/9 in SA?
If not there's an article in the current Victorian Fiat Club magazine about it, if you like I could scan it...not much about the installation but some pictures and an enthusiast's perpective of what it's like to drive.
Having an older car on electric power is a pretty cool way of having your cake and eating it too, I reckon
Good luck with it.
Thanks for the wishes mate, may need all the luck I can get.
No, I havent heard about the Fiat. I'll google it and find out about it.
If anyone is interested, there is a great video blog of a few here is Oz.
If anyone is interested;
It may get you very interested to start your own project.
Hi mate I am interested in doing the same conversion on the same car and I am in Brisbane too please pm me I would love to get some info from you and your experiance would help me alot.
I have narrowed down the problem definately to the fuel pump today. Pull the fuel line away from the fuel tank, and blew compressed air down the fuel line, no blockage. The fuel tank was definately not blocked either.
So its either the fuel pump or the recipocating mechanism in the engine that moves the pin/rod that moves the fuel pump mechanism.
So what is the likelyhood of the problem being on the engine side??
X1/9 article, scanned from the Fiat Club newsletter.
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/AGM155/x19p1.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/AGM155/x19p2.jpg)
(http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd320/AGM155/x19p3.jpg)
Thanks for that, great read. The Fiat X1/9 would be an ideal conversion. Performance would be dramatically increased if in the future he changes over to LiPo batteries.
Fuel filter sits near the right rear wheel.
I picked up one for about $14 from local Super Cheap. Takes about 15mins to replace. One thing i did realise was that it was put in the wrong way by previous owner. Hmmm
Anyway good luck.
Hey Converted,
Why not simply test your pump off the engine by manually activating the push rod and attaching some suction & discharge short lines to it. Stick the suction in a can of fuel and activate the plunger. If it doesn't pump, it needs a new kit.
If you can't afford a new kit, I got serious concerns about your project..
Failing that beg borrow or steal an electric pump, fit a low pressure regulator (2-3 lbs) to the carby supply line and see if you are getting fuel into the carbs. If so, the sucker should run if you got ignition too.
(refit the mechanical pump to keep the oil in but dont hook it up for fuel)
Can't you just borrow a fuel pump off one of your other Alfas for the trip there and back?
What's that? It's your only Alfa? Welcome to lesson one....
QuoteWelcome to lesson one....
-just love it. :)
Red Devil - its definately not the Fuel Filter/Regulator. Filter/regulator is after the fuel pump. But I did pull it apart to see how it works.
MD - I did pull the fuel pump out and tried the test you mention, but the pump return spring is too stiff to test by hand.
I couldnt work out how the fuel pump actually pulls apart, it looks like a sealed unit. I could see that the spring and the actuator arm could be removed but the internals look like a no go. Please let me know if I am wrong in this regard. A repair manual diagram would help immensely. Regarding an electric pump, yes, definately considered this option, but the cheapest one at Super Cheap Auto was $95, and the cheapest one on Ebay was $57 including delivery.
Its not that I cant afford it, I am just a tight ass.
Sheldon - Interesting lesson, I having doubts about converting the GTeV now.....LOL
I also tried testing the push rod hanging from its hole in the engine, and turning the engine over with the start motor, but was unsuccessful in determerning if its moving and falling to the ground because of the engine pushing it or it falling down with gravity, its sits at an angle that just stays in its position without the fuel pump being bolt on. I had no one to help, otherwise I could have determine if it was ok on the engine side.
Ok, lets have a poll, who believes its just the fuel pump? And who thinks its on the engine side?
Why not contact the club members to see if someone will lend you a pump from the spare parts bin for Pete's sakes. Get dialling ! How much spoon feeding do you want over a stupid fuel pump man ?
BTW Forget the engine side. It's irrelevant. If you have a failure on that side, believe me you wont want to be starting the engine up at all.
Heres my vote. I agree with MD's last post.
MD, who is this Pete bloke? Is he a friendly, patient type? Do yor think he has a spare fuel pump I could borrow? And is he in Brisbane....LOL
Ok, after sourcing a fuel pump from ebay, i installed it today and she started up almost 1st go. The old fuel pump must have siezed up, becuase the spring on this new one (actually a 2nd hand one) was much easier to push.
So, if you have a fuel pump that is not pumping fuel, check how stiff the spring is. This maybe an in indication that it maybe siezed.
Anyway, went to a weighbridge today and it came in at 1160kg, with exactly 50/50 split.
Ok, time to sell all the engine related parts, see the 'for sale' thread;
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php?topic=3283.0
OK, most of the parts are sold (still some remaining), the engine is ready to be pulled out. I usually pull the engine and gearbox attached together, but I am very green to Alfa's. So the million dollar question. Does the bellhousing and the engine pull out together, separate, or either is possible? I'm guessing, separately, but would appreciate any tips that anyone can offer.
If I need to separate the bellhousing, how easy is it to undo the prop shaft from the flywheel?
Keep smiling
DISCONECT ALL WIRING/ACCESSORYS/TAILSHAFT/EXHAUST AND IT STRAIGHT OUT IF U HAVE ALL THE EQUIPTMENT CAN BE DONE IN 1HRS OR YEAH PULL THE RADAITOR OUT TO
Yeah, all accessories are gone, you cant see from this pic but the all of the exhuast is out as well. Will the master cylinder be a problem being almost straight above the engine?
Havent really been under the car to have a good look around to see how the bellhousing and prop shafts all bolt up. I dont have a repair manual, was hoping to get some tips on best ways to pull it out.
i haven't done a gtv, only sedans, but straight away i reckon remove the bonnet.
Prop shaft needs to be disconnected. don't be too scared, it's only 3 17mm nuts. There's a hole in the bell housing to allow you access to these. bell housing stays on. You will waste hours if you try to remove this. There has often been an earth lead from the bell housing to the chassis in my past experiences. Could probably just rip it easy enough when removing the engine, but for good practice take it off.
Master cylinder not an issue. Have to slide the engine towards the front of the car initially to get the bell housing out anyway.
Get a mate to help you. Attach the engine crane to the handle thing slap bang in the middle of the engine. Have one person guide the engine while the other operates the crane.
As Dehne said, not really a hard job. Younger brother and i did it in an hour and a half on our first try.
Feel free to add anything i have forgotten.
i would completly remove the tailshaft or at least disconect completly and slide it back as ive tried doing one and only undone the front and ended up destroying the donunt then had to remove tailshaft anyway to back together ive done all my engines by my self but i mostly used the dog and chain as this was all i had available and a tree to connect it to dont forget the 2 bolts on the centre bearing if u are going to take tail shaft out sound like it should be out in 15mins though
Thanks gents, I was given advice to unbolt the bellhousing before pulling the engine out.
I do have an engine crane and I will make it abit easier for myself and remove the bonnet...lol
Access to the 2 bollts that connect the propshaft and fly wheel is easy then?
And I will watch out for the earth cable.
The info is much appreciated, thanks.
Keep smiling
any more progress?
Not much progress at the moment, due to other things in life getting in the way. I still havent had a chance to look under there to assess what is involved.
The engine is ready to come out, the main concern of mine is how easy/difficult is the propshaft is to unbolt from the flywheel. Im told that the donut thingy is easily damaged when removing the propshaft.
undo the back of tail where it joins gearbox 3 bolts undo the 2 centre bearing locators and then the 3 where it joins the fly wheel (bolts only) use a screw driver on small jemmi bar to pry it off gearbox then just wiggle it off the front
All dehne has said plus undo the 6 transaxle crossmember bolts and lower away from propshaft to separate donut from flange otherwise the shaft cannot move backwards to come away from the front flywheel and be removed. Keep an eye on the clutch slave cylinder as you do or disconnect it from the tranny.
,,and last of all, pull yer finger out. We're all waiting to see what other fouls ups you come up with... ha haa.
Well, yesterday I removed the 3 rear prop bolts/nuts, then the 3 flywheel prop nuts and then 2 centre prop support nuts. It won't come out because there is no play at the gearbox end, as MD said, the gearbox crossmember mount bolts need to be removed to allow some slack. Which will be next weeks adventure.
I think trying to jimmy it out with a screw driver, or similar, will destroy the rubber couplings at both ends.
One note, the nuts at the flywheel end were a bitch to undo, because you cant get a ring spanner around the nut (due to it being so close to the end of the propshaft), and a socket (17mm) just half fits into the nut. Can anyone offer any tips when bolting it back on?
Thanks Choderboy, it will be sometime before it gets bolted back together.
It seems that an open end spanner is the only way, but I have my doubts on how much torque will be applied to tighten these nuts, if you get what I mean.
After a few weeks of life getting in the way of this project I had another look at removing the propshaft but without much success.
I removed the 6 bolts that hold the front of the transaxle sub frame to the body, but this did not give enough slack for the propshaft to slide out.
The only way I can see how the propshaft is coming out is by moving the engine forward, or by removing the 3 studs that join the propshaft and the gearbox shafts via the rubber coupler. See picture below. I did manage to remove one of the studs but the other two will not budge.
I am wondering if the rubber coupler can be removed from the gearbox shaft? Or are they permanately joined together? See arrow in picture.
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u35/maok13/PropGearboxEnd.jpg)
Undo the flexible clutch line from the body (have a few rags and a container ready, it can get messy if you're not careful), undo the speedo cable and reverse switch cable from the gearbox (sensor things just pull off, speedo cable is a 13mm screw, then the cable slides out). I am also assuming you have detached the gear linkage.
Now get your jack and raise the rear of the di dion tube. with the front 6 cross member bolts detached, this will lower the whole front of the assembly, and the propshaft will come away from the clutch on it's own.
You have already removed way more from the coupling than you need to; removing the 3 bolts from the clutch spider to the donut is sufficient.
Any guesses what i have done four times in the last week? :)
Thanks for the fast replies you blokes. There is no room in the budget for a workshop manual choderboy, I was hoping you blokes would be my workshop manual, I will give what Mat recommended ago. However, Im starting to think that the whole of the transaxle maybe coming out to remove the bloody engine soon....LOL.
Im also thinking it may have been an easier option to just remove the engine without the bellhousing now.
Whilst i'm happy to give advice where i can, (everyone knows i need as much as i can get :)), i strongly agree with Choder.
A manual might cost you $50, but given the amount of time i'm guessing the lack having one has cost you so far, and with no smart arse attitude or disrespect intended (it's probably coming across like that in the text here), ideas like taking the bellhousing off to remove the engine are going to cost you much much MUCH more time than i could ever justify for $50. And i'm a student, with much more spare time (and less money) than most people :)
if you get a large screwdriver and use it to gently jemmy it out ive NEVER destroyed a donut yet and it will take you a couple on mins all the other info about removing clutch stuff and wiring is not nessecary but if you like i can lend you my workshop manual but ill have to post it up to you
* just a note you can pull a tailshalft out in about 20mins this includes pulling exhaust of just remember you only need to undo the bare minumim of bolts ie 3 bolts front 2 centre bearing 3 rear you can just loosen 6 crossmember bolts makes it easier to put back in, jemmy centre bearing off the rear forward
but i saying that ive done heaps of them and ur in for a first but once you have done one you will be a pro at it and you also will work out easier ways
QuoteI am wondering if the rubber coupler can be removed from the gearbox shaft? Or are they permanately joined together? See arrow in picture.
Just to clarify my question, does the rubber 'donut' seperate from the gearbox shaft?
Thanks Dehne, I did apply some pressure with a largish screw driver to gemmy it out. But looking at the above picture, I cant see how that would work if the rubber donut does not seperate from the gearbox shaft. If it does, I need to apply more force to gemmy it out. Can you (or others) confirm if this is the case????
Oh! Regarding how long it takes, Im not to concerned about the time wasted, I enjoy the challenge, its after all a hobby, and not a living. My time is very cheap.
Follow previous instructions to lower the transaxles and cross member from the body work but first put back the three nuts that fix the donut to the prop shaft engine side and be sure the nuts fixing to the clutch input shaft flange are off.
As the transmission lowers from the the body work, the coupling will come away from the flange. By all means give it come assistance with a lever and turn the shaft around to create an even prompting all round.
If that doesn't do it, I suggest some C4 and stand well back... ;D
get it out already.
Quote from: meizhak on November 02, 2009, 12:52:38 PM
get it out already.
Thats not what the missus is saying....LOL
Thanks for clarifying MD, I will give that ago.
Ok you blokes, its finally out. That prop at the rear was a mongrel to get out, what a crappy design.
The engine was a breeze, came out in minutes, single handedly too.
Thanks for all the tips gents.
Some pictures below.
Next step is to give the whole engine bay and under carriage a good degrease. There also seems to be alot of grease/oil all over the transaxle, that will come out for a good clean and inspection.
One good surprise from the GTV is the propshaft rubber couplings, I think these will make a good vibration free adaption to the electric motor.
The only reason the rear of the prop was a mongrel was because you did it wrong :)
From the car being completely assembled and drivable, dad and i had the clutch out, and dismantled on the bench in 45 minutes last Friday. A competent mechanic could probably do it in about half an hour. I certainly don't see any problem in the design
i agree with choderboy...
having not worked on alfas before the first thing i did was by a manual made the job a hell of a lot eaier,
and i bought it of ebay for $15.
Brad, you scored yourself a bargain, I would buy one at $15, but atm $70+ delivered on ebay, Im too tight to pay that much.
Regarding the design of the prop shaft, I was referring to bad design from removal point of view. I have removed many tailshafts from many different makes of cars that were simple and easy to understand, and remove, but I do understand in terms of functionality, its a clever design, vibration free motoring.
You don't seem to be hearing what people are saying. There is a method. If you follow it it is simple. You didn't. That isn't a bad design for removal...
As to buying the Haynes manual - a quick check shows 2 international sellers able to deliver to you for $25 AUD or so inc postage... I'd snap one up - they seem to be an appreciating asset (more so than the subject vehicle) - if you don't get it too dirty it should cost you nothing.... I think I'll frame mine :-)
Thanks for the heads up on the repair manual, I am tracking one at the moment on ebay, Im sure it will come usefull when I tackle the heater core exchange.
OK, I wont mention another word about the prop-shaft any more..... ::)
Some pics of the dirty engine bay and after degreasing it.
before;
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u35/maok13/GTVev/GTVEngineBayMini.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u35/maok13/GTVev/GTVEngineBay3Mini.jpg)
and after;
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u35/maok13/GTVev/GTVEngineBayClean1Mini.jpg)
(http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u35/maok13/GTVev/GTVEngineBayClean2Mini.jpg)
So,how is the work going with Your electric Alfa???
G'day Nikola, Im in the process of testing a large DC motor for suitability. It has a couple of brushes broken and need to do a test to see which way it spins.
Attached is a picture of it in parts. It is an old motor, weighs about 60-70kg, looks like its up to the job to move the GTV at good speed. As can be seen, not many parts to a DC Electric motor.
Quote.....looks like its up to the job....
What is its rated power? That should signal to you whether it will or wont do the job allowing for transmission losses.
Choderboy - my understanding was the same as yours, but according to the DC motor experts on EV forum, the Forklift Dc motors are designed to spin only one way, regardless of the polarity of the voltage. Its not a series wound Dc motor. I intend to put it back together and do a test of it, fingers crossed, it will spin the right way. Now, the GTV 2L spins anti-clockwise, right?
MD - I dont know its rating, its an old motor of substantial size , but most forklift DC motors are rated up to 48volts, but generallly can be over volted my atleast 3 - 4 fold for short periods. Again the gurus from the EV forum beleive that its more than capable, according to size of the brushes and the commutator.
Most motors including serious electric motors have a horsepower or kilowatt power rating. Thats what I am talking about. Don't care if it's 48 or 480 volts, What's the power rating?
To move the mass of the GTV, you will need kilowatts for a start...
MD - Unfortunately there are no markings on it to indicate its power rating.
On an EV, the kilowatts come from the batteries, more the better, and not the motor.
Generally the power rating of a DC motor is the continuous rating,and not the peak rating. Which is what the motor can handle for certain time periods. Inbetween the batteries and the motor is a controller, which controllers the voltage to the motor in relation to he throttle pedal.
Thanks for that Choderboy. I've put the motor back together and hope to do a test of this motor on Monday to see which way it spins.
From the information I am getting, its more about the batteries and motor controller that will determine how well the GTV will move. With the right combination, I am aiming for similar performance as the 2L that was in it.
QuoteOn an EV, the kilowatts come from the batteries, more the better, and not the motor.
That's "Y" generation talk for skewing the facts. The correct name for a battery is an accummulator because it a storage system to accummulate more energy by the addition or more cells that produce the energy. Sure, in various combinations there can be killowatts of energy stored.
The crux of the matter is that the batteries only provide the wattage but its the motor that DELIVERS the wattage that does the actual work. This point appears to be glossed over by you.
As for the controller, well it's no different than to claim that the ECU in a petrol injected car does the work. Both these systems are subserviant to the motor that does the actual work.
Calculating Horsepower:
Electrical power is rated in horsepower or watts. A horsepower is a unit of power equal to 746 watts or 33,0000 lb-ft per minute (550 lb-ft per second). A watt is a unit of measure equal to the power produced by a current of 1 amp across the potential difference of 1 volt. It is 1/746 of 1 horsepower. The watt is the base unit of electrical power. Motor power is rated in horsepower and watts.
Horsepower is used to measure the energy produced by an electric motor while doing work.
To calculate the horsepower of a motor when current and efficiency, and voltage are known, apply this formula:
HP = V x I x Eff
746
HP = horsepower
V = voltage
I = curent (amps)
Eff. = efficiency
Here is a link that you may find useful; http://www.elec-toolbox.com/Formulas/Motor/mtrform.htm
Will you be using a digital or analogue controller ?
QuoteThe crux of the matter is that the batteries only provide the wattage but its the motor that DELIVERS the wattage that does the actual work. This point appears to be glossed over by you.
MD;
I think what you maybe getting at, is that the motor delivers the Torque to the wheels, larger the DC motor more torque is generated from the available power, kilowatts ( or HP, which ever units one wishes to use) to the wheels, or in this case to the transaxle and then the wheels. This is similar to a crankshaft of an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine). Of course the field windings in the DC motor need to be able to handle the large amps that will go through it when large power is needed.
This is the reason why I am considering this motor, its 10" in diameter, which makes it a very decent size. Many EV conversion are done with 7", 8" and now 9" DC motors (and yes, there are even bigger motors, 11" and 13", but obviously weigh more), but are designed to some degree for the EV market. However, being an older DC motor, its efficiency maybe some what lacking compare to a more modern and dedicated DC motor. This is an unknown, and maybe an expensive gamble on my behalf, due cost of making an adaptor plate and motor coupler.
Oh! Thanks for the link, I do have some electrical and electronic theory understanding.
kartone;
Regarding the controller, Im considering a Zilla,
http://cafeelectric.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=2
Proven and tested on the track by, White Zombie, however, not cheap. There seems to be other controllers coming on to the market , so cost are coming down.
Most DC controllers are PWM, which basically turns the voltage on an doff depending the how much throttle is applied, and the motor sees an average voltage from the battery pack in proportion to the throttle position. All have some form of microprocessor control and I'd imagine analog on the power side of the controller, but im no expert.
A mate of mine is doing this to a Volvo, a fitting end to a Volvo's life :-). In an Alfa it just seems sad to me. From what I have seen of elec cars, they tend to have a crap load of torque, so your driveshaft may take a beating. How will you go with the centerline of ths shaft? Will it set the motor too low in the engine bay? Where are the batteries going? In the boot? by by 50/50 weight distribution. Could you have just bought a Hyundi, they are shit from the start :-)?
Comments are meant partly in jest. If you get it to work with 50/50 weight distribution (watch out for cracking struts if you hang too much in the front battery wise) and equivalent power to weight, I'll take my hat off to you, otherwise, you've trashed a perfectly good Alfa.
Following the theme of is it the right car choice to start with, here's what I would have started with instead..
MD, the GTV wasnt my 1st option, but I have always had an interest in the design and style of it. IMHO, people who convert very small cars to electric regret not doing a car they like the look of. Hence the GTV. My 1st option was a Gemini coupe, but there were no good examples to convert when I started looking. That Honda s600 would be an ideal one to convert, but again, would be difficult to find one in reasonable condition.
Mike, centreline of the drive shaft is one of the things to consider when building the motor mounts. What will happen is an adaptor plate will be manufacturer to mount the motor to the bellhousing. Here is a link of an example of what they look like, but mine will be just a flat plate,
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_AdapterPlate.html
And an example of the motor mount that I am considering.
http://electricvehiclesolutions.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=9&products_id=22
Batteries I havent give much thought to so far, due to the fact that they will be the last purchase decision being made. Im hoping by then, Lithium polymer batteries will be at a reasonable price by then.
It would be more of a crime to convert an S600 than a GTV IMHO. The S600 had a little jewel of an engine; four carbs, almost 100bhp per litre, and could rev to 8500. Not bad for the mid-60s.
OK, some success this morning, the motor spins the correct way. Clock wise if it was installed in the car looking at it from the front of the car. Another words, anti-clock wise when looking at the driveshaft end of the motor.
It was abit tricky to re-assembled it back together but we got there in the end....:)
Quote from: MD on January 03, 2010, 10:56:00 AM
QuoteOn an EV, the kilowatts come from the batteries, more the better, and not the motor.
...
The crux of the matter is that the batteries only provide the wattage but its the motor that DELIVERS the wattage that does the actual work. This point appears to be glossed over by you.
As for the controller, well it's no different than to claim that the ECU in a petrol injected car does the work. Both these systems are subserviant to the motor that does the actual work.
...
HP = V x I x Eff
746
HP = horsepower
V = voltage
I = curent (amps)
Eff. = efficiency
All true. But in the internal combustion comparison, lets say you have a supercharger and a bunch of pulleys so you can pick charge density - now your power limit has nothing to do with rated from factory power running atmo and everything to do with when something mechanically fails due to the increased loads (yes I know there are a bunch of real issues - just pretend its all "perfect"). Electric motors are simple things. They are close to "perfect" except that superconducting windings are still a bit exotic for this sort of application... Due to that the biggest imperfection is the I^2R losses - so keep I (volume of charge) constant and increase V (density of charge) => more power.
A big "accumulator" produces a lot of volts (boost). The internal resistance of the battery is typically very low so peak current (compressor flow) is massive (but average is limited by themal issues - as demonstrated by laptop battery fires). The controller is there to limit average watts based on user demand and to protect the whole system (battery and motor). Don't take on this car in a 1/4 mile drag (well - it is still running the stock tailshaft and taxle - so maybe you should)...
Or something like that - analogies are dangerous...
QuoteDon't take on this car in a 1/4 mile drag
LOL.....I think you maybe getting ahead of yourself there. Having said that, you know how it goes, you just want it to go faster and faster, regardless of the engine type....:)
Quoteanalogies are dangerous...
No argument there..It's the Yellow Brick Road that's got me stuffed.
A quick question to all 2L experts. Is the horizontal centre line of the crank shaft inline with the bottom engine mount bolts? The ones that bolt on the to engine block.
Eye balling and a rough measurement seems to indicate that it maybe very close.
I am asking this because I need to consider making up a motor support that will mount to the original engine mounts, which will support the electric motor.
Be a bit careful here I'm pretty sure that the 3 studs in each side of the engine block are at slightly different heights.
Alan.
Bottom edge of the lower mounting bolt is 65.14mm on the RHS and 41.67mm on the LHS from the cranshaft centreline.You can take the centreline to be the cleaned surface of the engine block-to-sump junction.
Thanks Alan, I only checked the RHS (passenger side) of the block and made the assumption that both engine mounts were the symmetrical (spelling?). Having another look, one can clearly make out the difference in height/position.
MD, how accurate are your figures?
Im roughly getting about 62mm (RHS) and 40mm (LHS) and the crank centre line to block-to-sump junction is about 60mm. I dont have the engine on a stand at the moment, so my measurements are probably out by +/-2mm.
Thanks MD, great info.
As accurate as most vernier calipers are at room temperature.
Thanks MD, I thought it may have been from technical engineering diagrams.
Hmn an interesting idea, and there was a guy in Melbourne I think from memory who did something similar but to a Fiat X1/9, however, and I suspect I know the answer, but why would you really want to make an electric, battery powered GTV. The whole point (well maybe not quite but close enough) about having one of these cars is the engine/carb/exhaust note. Instead you will have no noise, I am not sure I understand the appeal of this.
I recently had a ride, my first and hopefully last ride, in a Prius. Quite frankly it was strange, totally non-car like and plain horrid.
I guess you could always have a CD of an Alfa going up and down through the gears but seriously why would you want to do that when you can have the real thing. In truth, I don't think there is anything novel about making an electric battery powered car, and won't you need a lot of batteries to be able to travel any serious distance. Batteries weigh a lot, so won't this change the handling of the car.
I seem to recall Topgear testing the Testler and I think their overall conclusion was that it was nice in a way, handled well but had a seriously short travel distance if used with any verve, so basically was pretty useless.
Good luck with the science experiment but I don't think it is something I could ever cope with.
Thanks David for your comments, for me its the journey rather than the destination that excites me about this project.
Battery technology is advancing at a rapid rate, so Im sure an EV will even excite you, some day.
Well...an electric Alfa should at least stop....and not accelerate when not asked to.....unlike some Priuses...so the OP is already ahead of the game there! I dug up an article...late '90's or early '00's, with an electric RX7 running 10's on a 1/4 - sounds reasonably exciting. Although the electric-powered TT bike at Isle of Man sounded awful...
LPG furnace and superheated steam with condensation recovery produces almost flat torque and heaps more distance between fuel stops. Produces much cleaner emissions than internal combustion engines due to a complete burn of the fuel which is cleaner to start with. Old but proven technology.
The concept is used in the most up to date power stations world wide.
Granted I haven't seen a a power station charging around on wheels lately but you get the idea... ;D
It pains me to see any car, especially an Alfa, turned into a coal-powered abomination.
If the modifications to the vehicle would see it powered by hydrogen then maybe that could be seen as a potential step forward in technology but powering it by coal fired electricity is only one step removed from Borat's donkey powered Lada.
Quote from: NigelC on February 19, 2010, 10:36:23 AM
It pains me to see any car, especially an Alfa, turned into a coal-powered abomination.
If the modifications to the vehicle would see it powered by hydrogen then maybe that could be seen as a potential step forward in technology but powering it by coal fired electricity is only one step removed from Borat's donkey powered Lada.
Totally agree, which is why I buy 100% green electricity.
Seeing this topic is almost about green issues so I'll strech the friendship and ask the obvious question.
If we have so much natural gas that we export it by Niagra Falls volumes for peanuts only to buy expensive crude back for top dollar it begs the question.
How dumb are we??
Why dont we insist that all Australian cars run on our own gas and they can jamb the crude?
It's a much cleaner fuel. Engines last for an eternity and we are not subject to stupid rise and fall prices like we are now suckered into. If you want to create new jobs and a whole new industry, it's got to be the one..
Now about this electricity..never seen it green. ;)
MD, totally agree regarding CNG, most council buses around the country are using it. I believe it will be were we go when crude oil becames too expensive. It's all about the money in the end.
Maybe there should be another thread for this topic.
What colour do you see it MD?
Thought I'd spice up you topic a little..but for sure this sort of stuff amounts to political issues and belongs elswhere.
...colourless.Bit like water :D
OK gents, next step is to make up the electric motor to bellhousing adaptor plate. To able to make this, I need to find the crankshaft centre line (both horizontal and vertical centres) in relation to the bellhousing.
Would any one have engineering diagrams for the bellhousing? Or can put me in the right direction of the diagram.
I have a way of working this out, but I not sure how accurate I can get my dimensions to be.
I think you mean the rear engine mount?
116's dont have bellhousings.
Sorry, can't help with dimensions.
Well it looks like a bell housing.
Just got my hands on a workshop manual, was hoping there would be a diagram of the 'rear engine mount' but no such luck.
Its in PDF format, Im happy to pass it onto others who may need it.
If any one is interested in following this project, here is a link to an update I have on another forum;
http://www.aeva.asn.au/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1815
As usual, all comments are welcomed.
So how's the progress going with the GTeV ??
Personally, I would have simply fitted a motor cycle chain cog onto the clutch input shaft, got rid of the driveshaft altogether, mount your electric motor inside the cabin at the rear, cut a hole in the floor to couple the chain drive from the motor to the cog on the transaxle.
Fit the batteries in the front where the 4 stroke engine used to be as low as possible.
You now have an electric powered mid engined GTV 2.0
Benefits: No driveshaft, less weight, no steering rack issues in the front, strong and efficient drive system.
god, what a waste of an alfa
Seems like it's dead in the water too..