Think back and see if you can remember just what it was that made you put your hand in your wallet and fork out the hard earned cash for a bunch of suspect nuts and bolts fitted under the funny badge called Alfa Romeo.
Now that you are a seasoned owner, you sort of have a pretty good idea of what it is that you expect from a sports car that doubles up to get the groceries during the week and an ice cream on mount whatever 300 km away just for the pleasure of the drive and if they are out of ice cream that's ok because you will be back next week end just to see if the inventory has been replenished.
These days car manufacturers are producing a huge variety of cars and that includes Alfa but are they really catering for what you actually expect from a sports car? Do you like front wheel drive? Do you really need all the accessories. Are there enough accessories? What about the body shapes? What do Alfa cars say about you today that is different to what they said about you in the past?
Basically, if you were going to try to make cars that people actually wanted and qued up at your front door instead of at the opposition's door, what would your design criteria be?
Are we buying new Alfas because of brand loyalty until a better model comes along or are we really tickled pink with what we have and it is right on the money? If you had a chance to tell Alfa what sort of Alfa to make and be assured of your custom, what would that design criteria be?
If they could tool up again to make the series 2 1750 GTV and possibly a twin spark Alfetta GTV i'm pretty sure they would still sell
For me it's important that they remain "special". By that I mean things like having an all alloy twin cam engine when everyone else is having a cast iron ingot, twin dellortos rather than a single barrel downdraught, gearbox in the back as the alfettas, the boxer in the sud, the sound of pretty much any alfa engine, beautiful curves of the Bertone or the sharp design of the Giugiaro Alfetta GTV. I could go on and on. That special is being dilluted every generation, for example the 159 in my view is nothing more than a beauti'fied version of a generic GM product. It does that well, but I wish that the "special" bit went abit deeper than just a custom plastic on the valve cover. I'm a bit harsh here, but you get my drift. As an example, ugly as they are I think BMW has done a much better job at remaining "special" with cars like the 135.
I think Alfa went the right way with the design of the new 8C. It had everyone drooling over the lines and the motor. My 98 GTV, I think, is beautiful and the lines just sweep along the car. The fact that it is front wheel drive makes little difference as they installed a multilink rear suspension that gives it passive rear wheel steering.
I think the most important thing in car design is individuality. It's very hard to maintain that and keep pricing down. Take headlights and brake lights for example, even ferrari uses lights that are also on other cars. To be cost effective you have to. I don't know if I agree that carbies on a modern car would make it special.
I think Alfa do give their modern cars a certain edge that makes them more attractive. I can see this thread could cause a lot of arguments, old school verse new school. I like most of the models from all era's of Alfa Romeo , some of them are like, what were you thinking making that an Alfa Romeo. And if you deride any model Alfa, someone will pipe up and get their nose out of joint.
The thing that makes a car special is how it's owner feels about it.
Cheers
Tony
I didn't mean I wan't to go back to carbies, or de-dion etc on modern cars, i'm just saying they had things that were well advanced in their time. My guess is that the next big development in cars is going to be weight reduction, I'd like to see them lead in that for a start.
It seems to be a problem with many of the manufacturers and Alfa has also fallen for the me too syndrome.
I believe Alfa needs to make sports cars, not sedans that are tarted up. They should be great if not stunning to look at and look like they have racing character. The body shape needs to contain enought sex appeal and racing good looks so that it will always have that timeless beauty over the passing years.
It should not only sound and handle like a sports car but also have an interior that is race/sport car feel and smell, not full of plastic boring sedan like features. It should make you want to say after seeing and driving it - I want one and I want one now!
I suppose thats why I tend to like 70s cars!
Tim
Bit of steering correction (if you think it's needed)
I tried very carefully to phrase my opening remarks to invite suggestions about what you think are the desireable features for an Alfa destined for your garage. A simple enough invitation.
To save peoples feelings it's a fair enough call to say that it is not an invitaiton to bag the crap out of what we don't like in terms of specifically naming models. I think we can all see where that would lead us to- basically a big ball of negativity.(924 Porche owners are still out in the cold and mostly on Valium) :)
What we want is a positive and inspirational discussion of what the possibilities should be ie. looking forward just in case somebody in Alfa admin is actually paying attention and gives a sheit.
Having said that, I see no issues with what has been said so far and as the main heading to this topic set says it is for General Discussion - so let's have a discussion and in doing so the content may get a bit ragged and edgy at times but it's impossible to have a frank one without it.
I am running dangerously close to being a self appointed moderator so before I get that label I am getting on my roller blades and outta here...
I think ALFA design to me is three things (in order of importance):
1. Handling – going around corners is fun. I look for twisty roads, and they’re never long enough.
2. Looks – too me a nicely done 105 is as about as good as the automotive art gets for affordable cars. But it’s deeper than that; I love the older motors, the twin cam fours and the older 2.5L. The flowing Alfa Romeo script on the cam covers. Does anyone else feel strangely excited when someone posts a photo of their almost finished motor re-build, with all that shiny alloy? They didn’t have to design those castings with those looks to function correctly, but they did.
3. The sound. Not being loud, but just that little extra when you rev harder. If you’re not in traffic, do you have the window down in Winter?
It’s a good question about the newer cars: brand loyalty, or do they still have these things? I’m thinking of getting a third car, for when the GTV6 is having a rest. My head says get something Japanese and reliable, my heart says a 105, my wallet says a 164.
Some still don’t quite understand. I was heading off Saturday morning (to Monza in Bayswater for some parts) and she asked “Why are you taking the ALFA?” I would've commuted in the Subaru along the South Eastern freeway. I drove the GTV6 via Warrandyte and came home via Wattle Glen. That isn’t a philosophy that you put on a Mission Statement. That is a something you feel.
AL.
I wish I could bottle and sell that 'something' that makes Alfas special. They make cars for people who love cars. I currently have a 2006 model 159 and a 1979 GTV which are mechanically worlds apart but connected by a philosophical thread that is so difficult to define - a poet may have the words for it but I don't. My ex-wife said the 159 sounded like a Nissan Pulsar - I kept the car but I'm no longer married! It does sound simple and refined from the inside but the head turns it generates suggest that it looks and sounds quite awesome from the outside. The car does look fast, even when it's parked.
My GTV (slowly ... oh so slowly) being modified into a Group S, is referred to by the local kids as the James Bond car. Driving it, with the windows down, through hills and bends puts a smile on my face that even Kevin Rudd couldn't remove (big call I know). In essence you can't keep me out of my Alfa Romeos because they are cars made for car lovers.
Quote from: al_cam on July 16, 2009, 09:28:43 AM
I think ALFA design to me is three things (in order of importance):
1. Handling – going around corners is fun. I look for twisty roads, and they're never long enough.
Yes, the "drivers car" in my opinion has never been expressed better in vehicles that ordinary people can appreciate.
Quote from: al_cam on July 16, 2009, 09:28:43 AM
2. Looks – too me a nicely done 105 is as about as good as the automotive art gets for affordable cars. But it’s deeper than that; I love the older motors, the twin cam fours and the older 2.5L. The flowing Alfa Romeo script on the cam covers. Does anyone else feel strangely excited when someone posts a photo of their almost finished motor re-build, with all that shiny alloy? They didn’t have to design those castings with those looks to function correctly, but they did.
And again yes they did, and yes I do.
Quote from: al_cam on July 16, 2009, 09:28:43 AM
3. The sound. Not being loud, but just that little extra when you rev harder. If you’re not in traffic, do you have the window down in Winter?
It’s a good question about the newer cars: brand loyalty, or do they still have these things? I’m thinking of getting a third car, for when the GTV6 is having a rest. My head says get something Japanese and reliable, my heart says a 105, my wallet says a 164.
Some still don’t quite understand. I was heading off Saturday morning (to Monza in Bayswater for some parts) and she asked “Why are you taking the ALFA?” I would commutted in the Subaru along the South Eastern freeway. I dove the GTV6 via Warrandyte and came home via Wattle Glen. That isn’t a philosophy that you put on a Mission Statement. That is a something you feel.
AL.
Always have the window down on my 105, I bought this model because as a 13 year old I had a 10 minute ride in the back of a GT Junior and that was all it took. I had an Altetta (which was a basket case when I bought it) and got hooked on the "drivers stuff". sadly its long gone as I was doing the young family man thing back then. And now I'm basking in the glow which comes from driving/owning an Alfa. And its really a warm fuzzy feeling when all the young kids look and point because its not a Nissan or whatever, they have to look at the badges to figure out what it is and more than once I heard " oh it's an Alfa" and thats just fantastic 8)
Alfa's current design criteria is to produce cars people may actually want to buy (more than once). They design cars that feature striking exterior styling, lovely driver-focussed interiors and offer a sporting experience.
They may finally, even offer the build quality and reliability people expect of a premium product. Take the 159 for example. Its been criticised for being too heavy at 1700 kilos. I read a review recently that stated the chassis was so over-engineered, it could achieve a 6 star NCAP rating (if that existed). Its all about improving durability and refinement. I can tell you the turn-in is still razor sharp, the handling sweet and you wont find a trace of chassis flex.
However, the trade-off is a car which is slower than it could have been, with a motor which is overly polluting and fuel inefficient. Mind you, it sounds great from the driver's seat and even better from outside, so its not all bad.
Is the 159 as brilliant and well engineered as a BMW 3-series? Nope. Mind you, its also considerably cheaper.
I am hoping the MiTo represents a sound marketing strategy for Alfa in the current economic climate. They kept development costs low by leveraging an existing FIAT platform, whilst introducing small capacity (fuel efficient) engines that deliver sporting performance. The styling is unique and it has a nice interior. And at $30-$40k, its within the reach of a greater base of prospective buyers.
Alfa has nearly been lost to us on numerous occasions and their recent growth (against the Global trend) is good to see. I wonder why they don't manufacture the 8C with a steel body and V6 for around $100k (perhaps they don't have the funds to do so)? It could be as slow as old people rooting. They would sell a heap of them.
Cheers,
Marco.
What is it that I want from my new Alfa? Well here's my wish list:-
Performance
Better performance than other makes of the same engine capacity and chassis dynamics to match. Race proven weight distribution.
No computer enhanced suspension do-dads. I want to challenge myself at the wheel not a computer. Plenty of steering feel seemingly lost on modern cars. Definitely no power steering.
At least match the braking efficiency of any other sports car of the same mass and similar price range. No ABS required.
Engine
A crisp engine with an identifiable Italian heritage and some Jano creativity in there. Good thermal efficiency which is at least 100hp/litre or better. Well designed lightweight internals that spin up fast and crankshafts that don't weigh a ton. Piston configurations that produce good squish. Tuned induction, exhaust systems and camshafts that produce a good and useable spread of torque that don't develop the power in the last 1500 rpm. Does it have to be fuel efficient at the expense of performance, no. Two stage supercharging 1.5litre six cylinder configurations may deliver good power-to-weight and Alfa shouldn't be afraid of looking back to go forward.
Gearing
Well defined ratios to match engine revolutions and power band. Synchros that last longer than the first 20,ooo service and work equally well on all gears.
Weight
The key to performance is power to weight. Pay attention to everything that contributes to weight gain in the car. Forget all the baloney trinkets that belong in the limousine class of vehicle. Exercise a ruthless strip down of what a true sports car needs to perform its job and do it well reliably. It doesn't need the majority of dribble that's crept into cars today. Alternatively, give the buyer the choice of a fully optioned vehicle for the lard arse sector who just cannot live without and a bare bones car for real enthusiasts.
Quality
There is no excuse in todays technology for oil leaks. If the Japs can do it, anybody can do it. The notion of Italian means an oil slick has got to end. Likewise the issue of corrosion has got to cease and for purposes of resale, the idea that Alfas are rust buckets has to be left for the history books.
Distinction
If an Alfa doesn't have a distinctive personality it's not really an Alfa end of story. If manufacturers all followed the ideal wind tunnel form to maximize fuel efficiency, we would all be driving the same shape car with different badges on it. Compromises need to be made here in the interest of form and shape.
Where from here?
Well pretty much a clean sheet start for Alfa. They are never going to be able to mass produce a world car that Fiat dreams of because the Chinese and Indians will do that soon enough. Lets concentrate on serving enthusiasts who expect so much more from their Alfa than transport from A>B. Stop charging BMW prices and then failing to deliver BMW performance and style.
No Cup Holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
QuoteNo Cup Holders!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Not necessary. They come standard with every passenger.. ::)
The Biggest defining factor in ALFA ROMEO was when FIAT took over the marque,in partcular from the 164 onwards- ie, FRONT WHEEL DRIVE,TIMING BELTS for example.
It is questionable,but ALFA was going broke and the consensus is that FIAT saved the marque.
I was living in italia during the years of the naples ALFA factory,unfortunately the reputation of the mezzogiorno was very detrimental to ALFA,it was perceived that the quality was not up to standard of milano,this snowballed to their demise in some way, but thanks to FIAT ALFA WAS KEPT UNDER ITALIAN OWNERSHIP, the AGNELLI family did help.CIAO
Personally, i would love to see alfa do a cheap(ish), simple drop-top a la the mx-5; rear drive, lightweight. Something with some real character in which a new generation could get into contact with the true alfa spirit
Very simple request actually.
make the timing belts last longer then 3 years.
when changing the rear globes on the 147..make them easy to access and not have to use a 10 mm socket set to change a globe....
make the rotors a little harder so you dont have to do pads and rotors at the same time costing $1000 +
A little smell of petrol doesnt hurt in the cabin does it...but dont over do it...
Keep the Alfa roar inside and out.
thats about it.
Quotei would love to see alfa do a cheap(ish), simple drop-top a la the mx-5
Mickael
How about a twin spark Alfa X1-9 ?
The perfect Fiat crossbreed.
MD,
Your "What is it that I want from my new Alfa? Well here's my wish list:-:" is so spot on, and it must contain styling that matches the character of the car!!........BRAVO!
Tim
Thanks Tim,
You know in some fields of endeavour, market reseachers would give their left credential for this information.To know exactly what the customer wants is worth gold. Let's hope the Fiat radar is switched on...
Quote from: MD on July 21, 2009, 05:58:43 PM
You know in some fields of endeavour, market reseachers would give their left credential for this information.To know exactly what the customer wants is worth gold. Let's hope the Fiat radar is switched on...
You're kidding aren't you? I don't think Alfa would lose too much sleep over what we think, as most people here would buy an Alfa anyway, the only question would be which model and in which colour? And none of us are getting any younger last I checked.
No, they need to appeal to a younger generation, or at least first-time Alfa buyers, if they want to grow sales, hence the Mito. What
that customer wants is the image. Alfa still have that, the trick is keeping it once people actually experience the cars. And as Biggus says, get them buying an Alfa more than once. BMW are the masters at this. Well they were anyway...
Sorry for going off the subject a little.
Oh yeah, and MD - your "Wish List". Sounds like a Lotus to me (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Sheldon,
I wouldn't say that I cannot relate to your logic as it makes sense from a certain point of view and as this is a discussion topic I guess diverging viewpoints is the name of the game.
You are spot on when you say that my sports car prescription is Lotus based. It is also BWM based as they offer similar options and it is this latter arch rival that is winning the game which irritates me the most because its exactly where Alfa needs to be. Boots and all. Commodores are sold on the basis of Bathurst not on the basis that the same car is a yellow taxi and mum's shopping basket. Alfa is motorsport. The image must be maintained afresh. Living on history is to die like Jaguar and become irrelevant.
The older generation? Well, the last time I went to the track, the majority of Alfa competitors certainly are over the 50's and these guys have a couple of decades left at least of motoring enthusiasm . They certainly KNOW what to expect from a good Alfa. They also have the morgage paid off with disposable cash to buy another Alfa if they feel compelled to (or enticed) to do. Are they going to beat the feet to the Mito showroom to buy something that's a Harry Potter novel centrefold, I don't think so.
Alfa/Fiat is missing out on return custom and the follow on custom from that because these guys have sons and daughters that are influenced by what their parents drive and why. Nobody can afford to be that dismissive of of sales potential and I certainly don't see BMW doing it. I have never seen an 18year old behind the wheel of a Lotus that wasn't stolen.
Quote from: MD on July 22, 2009, 07:46:15 AM
You are spot on when you say that my sports car prescription is Lotus based. It is also BWM based as......
How so? When did BMW last offer a lightweight car unemcumbered by unneccesary electronics? That said, most of the M stuff is pretty bloody good, even if too heavy.
Quote from: MD on July 22, 2009, 07:46:15 AM
Commodores are sold on the basis of Bathurst not on the basis that the same car is a yellow taxi and mum's shopping basket.
I disagree. 99% of Commodores are sold because they're a) Australian, b)Pretty good cars, c)Cheap for what they are. Not necessarily in that order, but possibly.
Quote from: MD on July 22, 2009, 07:46:15 AM
Alfa is motorsport. The image must be maintained afresh. Living on history is to die like Jaguar and become irrelevant.
It's been a while since Alfa was motorsport, but I agree that it would be great if they tried to re-ignite that image. How exactly have Jaguar died? I've just watched the latest Top Gear, and the XFR was regarded as at least as good as an M5, and the new XJ looks pretty stunning too. I will admit that their philosphy was slightly wayward a few years ago, but they are certainly not dead. And I also point you to another of your quotes...
Quote from: MD on July 17, 2009, 09:41:08 PM
Alfa shouldn't be afraid of looking back to go forward.
Quote from: MD on July 22, 2009, 07:46:15 AM
The older generation? Well, the last time I went to the track, the majority of Alfa competitors certainly are over the 50's and these guys have a couple of decades left at least of motoring enthusiasm . They certainly KNOW what to expect from a good Alfa. They also have the morgage paid off with disposable cash to buy another Alfa if they feel compelled to (or enticed) to do. Are they going to beat the feet to the Mito showroom to buy something that's a Harry Potter novel centrefold, I don't think so.
One of the issues here is, how many of the Alfas at the track are
standard cars? We all know that Alfas are great, and sporty, cars. But I think part of it is that we can feel their potential, hence we spend time enhancing them toward our ideal car, making the sporty bits even more sporty. This is all good, but we are a minority amongst Alfa owners, let alone the other idiots. That said, I honestly think Alfas are one of the best standard (old) cars to put on the track, along with Porsches.
Quote from: MD on July 22, 2009, 07:46:15 AM
Alfa/Fiat is missing out on return custom and the follow on custom from that because these guys have sons and daughters that are influenced by what their parents drive and why. Nobody can afford to be that dismissive of of sales potential and I certainly don't see BMW doing it. I have never seen an 18year old behind the wheel of a Lotus that wasn't stolen.
Exactly my point in the previous post. If the son or daughter is impressed by the parents 159, what are they going to buy to compete with their mates, especially the trendy mates with Mini Coopers or Fiat 500s? MiTo.
Don't get me wrong mate, I agree with your wish-list for a new Alfa, but I just don't see it coming anytime soon. I wish I could, and I hope I haven't taken this thread too far off-topic.
For what it's worth, here's my POV. I always had a deep respect for Alfa Romeos because they seemed to be cars that put driving enjoyment, and style, above all else. My 90 was the first Alfa I ever drove, and that was only 5 years ago. I didn't think it would happen, but I've become one of those people that don't think "what car should I buy next?, but rather "which Alfa should I get next?". As a side note, I'm not sure this would have happened had I not joined the club.
After doing some work on my 90s, and some track days, that view was confirmed. It used to drive me crazy trying to work with the flimsy interior parts, and the annoying and complicated electrics. But then I started to work on the oily bits, and then I realised what the car was about. They didn't scrimp on the important stuff, and although it may be difficult to work on sometimes (I'm thinking transaxle here), it's that way so that it feels just that little bit better when you go round a corner. And then there's the engines.......
Cheers, sorry for the long post, and again, hope I haven't taken it off-topic
Sheldon
Appreciate your effort to put your microscope on everything. Given that our respective positions range from, totally agree with you to totally disagree with you makes me think it somehow represents the general point of view out there anyhow. I also think I have said all I need to say and I appreciate the opportunity to have done so.
I just want to say this much in conclusion. The next road going new Alfa I am going to buy will weigh 1 000kg or less with a front 2 litre engine making 100hp/L fitted with a torque tube and transaxle . Until it's here, I am not buying one. Could be a wait... :)
Cheers
MD