so tonight i finally spent a little time in the garage and got my hands dirty. and boy was it good.
i'm guessing that most people will think i'm a bit mental taking on an alfa resto, but i'm glad to have the challenge.
anyway this is the current condition of the beast:
more pics of rust and the like:
Looks like a great start! And the car already has a set of extractors (if i'm not mistaken) and a goodly bit of 'spare-oil'! Good luck with it all - keep up the pics, I love to see restos!
jimn~
Quote from: scuzzyGTV on April 23, 2009, 09:07:19 PM
i'm guessing that most people will think i'm a bit mental taking on an alfa resto
Not here mate, you are among equally derranged people... ;D
Looks like you have got yourself a challenge there. Whats the plan? Road/Track/Concourse etc??
Well I don't want to put anyone off a restoration especially a GTV. Looking at the nature of the rust in it, I would be seriuosly investigating where this car came from. If it ever spent part of its life close to the coast, you might rethink the exercise and start iff with one that lived on Dad & Dave's farm.
After all your hard work, the restoration may last as long as a $100 bill on the Collins street pavement..
Be careful is all I am saying. What is the manufacture date?
jim - yep they are extractors and it has high compression pistons too. not sure on the cams tho.
phil - not too sure on final plans yet, but it wont be concourse! possibly road/track, not sure on how i'll liberate some more power yet.
md - the car is originall from melb, then came to hobart bout 10 yrs ago. the rust is bad, but it is only localised in 7/8 spots. plus i have a mate who is a panel beater. my real concern is the light crash damage on the front wing, i may need a new one.
the paln at the moment is to slowly strip it down of parts, get the body fixed and by that stage i should know exactally what i want to do with the motor area, which will determine the rest of the running gear.
anyway best start doing a bit more work.
scott
Scott,
Just deduced from your signature that it's a 1980 model. Well, if that's the case, I got some bad news for you.
Pre'82 in any rate pre plastic bumper transaxles were made from a different metal to the later ones. This metal is prone to rust more readily and unpredictably so. Rust can develop in weird places that usually does not affect cars in general. On the positive side, structurally these cars are just as tough.
What this means is your preparation and finish will need to be industry best practice or your post restoration expectation less due to some regression.
It's hard to defy gravity. Best of luck.
MD,
I'm really not sure what you are talking about here, there is nothing magic about how these cars rust. True, these cars rust more easily because of the crappy russian steel. But, I think the patchy quality of the coating and the built in rust-traps are much more important. If I use my own car as an example its total surface area was probably 98% rust free. The 2% or whatever that rusted(pretty badly though) is mostly where water or dirt got trapped. Sure the steel probably rusted faster once the paint broke down, but it never really had a chance.
The challenge in restoring these cars is that they rust in awkward places. That means its hard to spot in the first place, difficult to fix properly and difficult to coat after you're done. Using my car as an example again, someone had a go at removing the "easy" rust but didn't deal with the difficult bits like the a-pillar. Of course it was going to come back and crack the paint, there was still water leaking through and getting trapped. For mere mortals perfection is impossible, but I'm sure doing the best you can and keeping it dry later on will do wonders.
Good luck Scott!
Kris
Quote from: MD on April 25, 2009, 05:07:34 PM
Scott,
Just deduced from your signature that it's a 1980 model. Well, if that's the case, I got some bad news for you.
Pre'82 in any rate pre plastic bumper transaxles were made from a different metal to the later ones. This metal is prone to rust more readily and unpredictably so. Rust can develop in weird places that usually does not affect cars in general. On the positive side, structurally these cars are just as tough.
What this means is your preparation and finish will need to be industry best practice or your post restoration expectation less due to some regression.
It's hard to defy gravity. Best of luck.
I have to ask at this point, why did you need to know the year of manufacture of his car to say this? The rear lights, the 'GTV' inlay behind the windows and the air intake at the base of the windscreen (all clearly visible in his photographs) should have all been dead giveaways to it being a steel bumpered car (therefore pre 81), not to mention other small details. I thought you said you'd owned one of pretty much each model of transaxle and 105 Alfa?
Agreed. Realised that myself after the post. Glossed over the photos too quick. Makes no difference. The advice is the same. You know what advice is like. One can take it or leave it.
Scott is a Newbie. For all I know, he is altogether new to Alfa. People like him come to forums like this to learn about their new interest. Surely members who have some background knowledge about issues would want to volunteer useful information. This is my intention here. No more, no less.
If you have opinions totally opposite to mine, perfect. Post them.
Kris, I am sure I do know what you're talking about. You have elaborated on what I have said.
Scuzzy, just returning to your original issue of restoration, you may find a couple of products helpful remembering that the key objective for corrosion control is to prevent oxygen coming into contact with the metal.
A product made by Valvoline which is called Tectyl 506 has been around a long time. Historically is was used to preserve armaments during the second world war. It's military specs stuff and dependable. Best used for "internal" sections such as doors, sills, chassis box sections, inside pillars and the like. The only drawback is that you cannot paint over it so keep that in mind. The good part is that it is cheaper than house paint !
Surface corrosion control is a little more tricky as most paints are porous enough to allow some oxygen through. Five-six years ago, Dulux had a 2 pack primer sealer just for this purpose which they guaranteed would stop corrosion provided the preparation was in accord with their specs. You may care to investigate if this is still around and discuss it with your painter.
I have used Tectyl for over 30 years and it has never let me down. I have the Dulux primer on my GTV now for 5 years and there is no rust problem.
There are plenty of good examples of cars from that period around and there is no reason why yours should not join them given the right preparation.
Best of luck with it all.
MD , Is Tectyl 506 thin enough to be sprayed ???
Sorry forumphiles, I beleive the Russian steel thing to be a myth. The reason that post mid 80's cars (all makes and models) didn't rust so prolifically was due to the emergence of manufactures understanding the benefits of rust inhibiting metal surfaces at manufacture. Up until then it was generally understood that good painting was all that was required to fend off tin worm. I worked for Merceded Benz in the 70's they rusted, 60's and 70's Holdens rusted in the wild when only 2 years old, Nissan and Mazda all had issues and no Russian steel in sight. Environmental issues either sped up or slowed the inevitable progress, hence worse on salt treated roads and better in Mildura where the air was dry.
By the early 80's 'dipping' the partially assembled bodies was the new bechmark, then 'electrlysis' with the dip to attract the right ions to the metal and even zinc coating began with some manufacturers.
Just like today with water based paints, they all watch one anothers techniques and try to keep abreast of their respective markets to remain competitive and comply with legislation.
On the subject of the resto, I do remeber seeing another blue ALfa GTV for sale on this forum for $500.00. Maybe take a look just incase it has spent some time in a dryer climate.
hi all,
as i've said before i'm not too concearned with the cars condition. i will be taking it bach to bare metal as i've had this car for 6 years now and am no stranger to the conditions these can end up in. if worst case is that under the paint it is too far gone, then i'll search for another gtv and this will become a spare parts car.
i have pleanty of time to do the resto, although i would like to have it back on the road now (i havent driven it since 2006). ultimately i would like it back on the road by christmas, but its not too likely whilst renovating our house and heading back o/s for 6 weeks.
hope to update some good progress (i.e. consulting with a alfa bodyworks specialist, i'm open to suggestions in hobart)
but thanks you all for taking an interest and giving advice etc.
scott.
Paul,
Tectyl straight from the can is fairly thick and would require lots of pressure to move it. It can be thinned with mineral turps to a consistancy appropriate for your gun. It actually works incredibly well even at fume level inside a section. It bonds to the metal so well and repells moisture. Stops corrosion too if you remove any loose stuff on the surface.
It should be applied with an airless nozzles so it gets applied without too much "fan"
It is not supposed to be exposed to sunlight but I had a 1968 Giulia Super daily driver that had a small section of rust on the surface of the body. I kept putting off the paint restoration for about 5 years and where I had applied the Tectyl, it stopped the rust and prevented any further development even though it was used in an inappropriate location. Honestly, I constantly recommend it to friends and guys doing restorations 'cause I know it really works. Has a bit of a sweet smell to it when it's applied but that disappears over time. No, I am not commercially associated with this product whatsoever just in case some people may think that.
MD,
Thanks for the info. Checked on the net , it appears you can but it in a 250 G aerosol or 4 litres in bulk. As you mentioned the 250 aerosol maybe a good way of getting to the non daylight applications, and as an interim mesure allow the Alfetta & I to grow old together.
Cheers
Gully
Hi Scott,
Good to see another Alfetta getting restored to be driven.I know you said you were familiar with the rust areas but I just wanted to mention the shock I had with mine,ater stripping the outside rear to bare metal I was told to check inside the rear at the parcel shelf area and found it to be rotten as a chop where the drains are supposed to be!!.
Cheers
Andrew
latest news:
well i went to chat with my bodyworks mate today (i'm off sick & this is about the best time to catch him) and he is more than happy to do the work required that i cant. he's got alfa experience, very telling by a nice looking 33 waiting to be collected, but is extremely busy for the next couple of months. he'll come over to my place and check out the car before he starts to determine if we'll go ahead with it. so it looks like i'll have to do as much work as i can and wait until i get back from europe in early august for body to be fixed and painted. looks like i'll need some of that tectyl!
in other news i'm still considering the supercharger route with this motor, thanks largely to david m's suggestion of reading mike's twin charge project on alfabb. again i'll be doing most of the removal and cleaning myself then off to another karting friends servo to be rebuilt and reinstalled.
so far the rust hasnt been too obvious, however if anyone has any more tips on where to watch out for it please do let me know.
here's some more pics.
scott.
ps. did i mention i have really bad arachnophobia?
Hi Scott
Ah I thought I recognised the car and I do remember it well as well as your Dad's red 1750 GTV, though havn't see you guys or cars around for some time. The CMI hillclimb sticker, front spoiler and sunroof a dead giveaway. I have seen far worse rust on a Alfetta GTV of that vintage and to be truthful these cars a starting to become a little thin on the ground so if you can restore it so much the better.
Re the Supercharger route. There is a guy who has mostly posted on the AlfaBB but has recently posted here on the forum. Mike Barrenger. He has both a silver '76 GT which he is converting to have both Super and Turbo charging with a desired output of around 400 BHP !! Pretty awesome stuff for an Alfetta. Mike is an engineer and in conversation with him, and reading his postings, it might be helpful to you if you got in touch with him. He lives in Hobart. He also has a red Alfetta race car on Vic CH plates. He only recently returned to live here from Melbourne.
The other person you might wish to get in touch with is Geoff Storr as he has quite a few Alfettas including his Targa and road GTV cars. He may have some spare parts helpful to you.
From the picture of the damaged front guard, from my experience that doesnt look too bad and should be relatively straight forward for your panel beating guy to fix. BTW, can you PM me if you dont wish to give out such details but I too need such a person to work on my project cars, (giulia super and 1750 GTV). Cheers Dave
david, i didnt think it would take you long to work out who i am. last time i used the car was late 2006, then moves to ukfor a year and since have ben saving for the resto. i completely forgot about geoff storr's parts bin, i'll have to try and get back to some club outings soon and start asking a lot of questions.
the guy i'll get to do my bodyworks is mark cooper at bowen bodyworks, howard rd derwent park. nice bloke and has been doing it for 30+ years.
dad has been fairly busy with his business in the last couple of years, but is finally getting back into it also (think thats my influence), so hopefully his 1750 will be up to standard soon.
i'm not wanting as much power as mike, i think 250 should be ample for my license's sake!
hope to get a bit more work done over the weekend, but targa calls on sunday and i dont like the weather forcast for tomorrow!
scott.
went up to agfest today, first time, was excellent! could have pent a fortune on some great toys. whilst there i happened apon a stall that was selling carpets. they had this nice black waterproof auto carpet roll with underlay already attached for $66! i know it may be premature but was an exciting momnet all the same. i'll post a pic when i get a moment. now just need to strip, fix and paint before i can put in the new carpet.
oh well at least i'm looking to the future.
after a little bit more work, i've come across some questions that you guys might be able to help me with.
firstly does anyone know the easiest way to remove a seized piston from the brake caliper, and
if i decide not to put the sound proofing insulation back in, what effect does that have on noise and heat transfer?
progress at the moment is still a bit slower than i'd like, but the interior is out, all bolted panels are off and the engine will be taken out soon.
i'll try and upload some more pics soon.
thanks in advance
scott.
Seized piston
If indeed it is seized, there is a 50/50chance that it has pitted and corroded piston walls which wont seal after you have taken it apart anyhow. This usually means resleeving it and extra bucks. The original calipers are readily available second hand cheaply. If you cannot locate one, send me a PM and I will mail you one gratis.
Of course it is the perfect excuse to upgrade to ventilated front rotors and alloy calipers ...(recommended)
Insulation
Yes you would expect more transfer of radiant heat from the exhaust system and to a lesser extent via the firewall if the insulation is removed. To offset this you could do a couple of things :-
1 Fully line the prop. tunnel with an insulation aluminium sheeting.
2 Just install the insulation shielding above any silencers/resonators and insulation wrap the rest of the exhaust tubing. DO NOT WRAP THE CAST IRON MANIFOLDS.-they will crack.
Last time I tried to buy the insulation sheeting, it was available from Supercheap and Repco. It was considerably cheaper at Repco.
I hope that give you some food for thought.
How seized is the piston? I got mine out eventually by clamping one piston and hitting the port with compressed air. Watch your fingers as it comes out with a big bang!
so doing a bit more work tonight, removing more of the interior, plus trying to get the pistons out of the calipers (will use your advise on this k76), so come along to a very stubborn gear knob. so pull out the wd40, let it loosen up the rubber, then pull. still nothing happens. pull a little harder and the elation as it comes off is soon surpassed by the realisation that ive just fractured the windscreen!
dont i feel like a proper d**khead tonight.
does anyone know if they are readily available for an '80 gtv with rubber seals and if so a rough cost? also how o remove them properly?
i'll finish the project off first before getting a new one installed, as i dont feel like a repeat.
aside from that its going well, not a lot of rust found so far :D and generally coming apart well. althouhg i am having a bit of trouble with the centre console, cant work it out, i believe there are many different types so i've got a pic for reference.
enjoy the pics (the rusty colour stuff on the inside is actually dirt)!
scott.
some more...
finally the culprits & aftermath
As the saying goes...sheit happens. Screens should be readily available. Only recently installed an Alfetta laminated screen complete with a built radio antenna for $225. Sometime reinstalling old screens with old rubbers cracks the screen in the process anyway so just think of it as one more restoration item charge. (Might ease the pain)
given how easily it broke, i'm actually a bit glad i'll be changing it, safety first.
that price is pretty reasonable, thought it'd be around double that.
thanks
scott.
hi all,
it's been a while, with planning the honeymoon trip etc etc, not a lot has been done to the alfa :(, but there is light at the end of the tunnel.
today i took delivery of a very nice new Haynes workshop manual! it is very exciting for me (one of my more nerd orientated moments) to finally have something to work from other than a shortening memory.
so work will recommence once we get back in mid august and from there we should hopefully have some quicker progress.
catch you all later.
scott.
Well for your sake I hope the manual is for the car and not the honeymoon... ;D
...and oh yeah, speaking of honeymoons, did you hear one about the farmer with choking duck problem and the honeymooners living on the fruits of love ?? ;D
So I'm back in the country. We had a fantastic time catching up with family and friends in the uk, and exploring Malaysia and Vanuatu. However I have come back with a big desire to get the car back on the road, very soon!
One of the things I have been contemplating is the guttering. Has anyone removed this from their cars, or is this a silly idea? Given that most of the rusting areas on the car are along the gutter I had thought it could be a welcome removal.
Anyway the plan at the moment is to remove the motor and get the car soda blasted then resprayed, whilst the motor is getting an overhaul. I would like to add fuel injection at this point and like the look of the dcoe style tb's, but it doesn't appear to be a popular conversion.
Looking forward to the next couple of months ;)
so as i desperately wanted to, got stuck into the car today and the result is half a heart replacement. at time is was incredibly frustrating, seeing as i dont have steriotypical small old italian man hands, but its out.
it'll be off to the mechanic this week sometime, so now its all onto the body so i can send that off to get sodablasted, cancer removed and a new lick of ar dutch blue added :).
on the removal we noticed that the front donut is shot, good thing it didnt fall apart whist it was being driven in high spirit!
here are a few pics of the end result...
and the donut...
what a way to spend a friday night!
a cold beer (not hard in tassie at the moment) and pretending to work on the alfa. just playing with my new toy, one of those fake dremel things. i thought i'd have a bit of a look at one of the rust spots on the rear end of the guttering. whike the hole isn't insignificant the amount of rust underneath was suprisingly less than i'd imagine. mind you its only one spot of many!
speaking of rust MD was a bit hesitant for me to restore the car originally, i can understand that, but it was my first ever car, so the likelyhood of me wanting to scrap it or sell it are quite remote, guess i'm just sentimental :D
anyway as much as i'd love to strip the motor myself and rebuild it, i just dont have the tools, or time to do it, so the motor is at my mechanics, i pick up a set of good cams tomorrow and hopefully i can get the old girl off to a painter soon.
anyway pics will come when i get around to it.
enjoy your friday eve!
lets just say it'll be going on before the motor is stuffed back in!
hmmm, got some annoying news yesterday.
not sure why but everywhere that paints classics in hobart seems to be stupidly busy. i thought there was an economic crisis on! anyway short story is i'm not going to get the car in to a workshop until at least late this year, bummer.
it looks like i'll be using snother place to have the works done too, as they seem to want to do projects a bit quicker than my mate, who still has cars sitting around in the same state as they were months ago!
anyway its friday, more beers and finals await!
scott.
well progress has been much slower than i'd hope, but with a few problems sourcing parts this cant really be helped.
anyway with some help from Vin @ Pace i now have a nice new set of high compression piston, liners and rings :D :D :D
so the motor should benefit from these next week.
still trying to get someone to do bodywork, but i'll sort that at some stage.
anyway thought i'd show you all my new parts and the view from my desk at work, shame the mountain is hidden by the clouds!
scott.
pulled a few more bits off today, between enjoying the rare sight of sunshine, and have come across a small issue.
the exhaust system is completely welded from the start of the 2:1 pipe to tip. is there a simple way of getting it out, or will i need to remove the right rear drive shaft? i would prefer not to cut it!
cheers
why is it that everything happens at the same bloody time??
been doing the SPAM reno the last fortnight, house is still a mess as we're removing walls, i'd rather be under an alfa than in th eroof. after finding some more bits that the previous rebuid had left off, the motor is together today!! tomorrow i had a guy coming to look at the body, hopefully he'll take it away in the next couple of weeks. should be getting the TS 'box sometime over the week too.
i can only hope that it all comes together smoothly, but i dare say it wont.
anyway here a few pics of the rebuilt motor, with another set of HC pistons, some fast road cams, and a nice clean, meaning no more oil in the plug wells! enjoy (i do!)...
with the motor rebuilt we have now moved attention to the fuel injection. the basic plan is to gut the dellortos, use one of the screw holes to put an injector in each throat, run a single commodore map sensor from each throat and hook it all up to my new wolf 3d v4.
not sure if i'm likely to get anything from this, but has anyone got a base map for a 2lt alfa motor on a wolf 3d? i'm new to programming and this could be a great starting point, otherwise, i'll do a heap of reading and try to sort one myself.
hoe you all have a great christmas break, working on your pride & joys
Well its been quite a while since my last update, same old story, Im still not use to adult life where I do nothing but work at work and work on the house. Needless to say that time management hasn't left many minutes for the poor old alfa :-[.
There is however some good news. Managed to save the carbies from the drill (now i can rebuid my spare motor), and have instead installed a Nissan pulsar injection system. It is similar to a camira one, where the ports are a close match, we did make an adaptor plate to it, but there are may more of them, and they are heaps cheaper! In the end has cost about 250 for the system, which I believe is great value for a FI system.
I have pulled more stuff out, so it is almost completely empty inside and cut the exhaust, with a hack saw! My arm ached for days after that effort.
I have also taken to some of the bubbling spots of paint and cleaned the rust up a bit. To be honest it was not as bad as I had imagined, but the rest remains to be seen, literally!
So I have a few pics of the pulsar set-up and some more of the uncovered rust...
and the rust...
and some more *Gulp*...
If that's the worst of your rust, you're laughing :)
I gather the pulsar injection system is all fully programmable? Or are you going to build one from scratch? Love to hear more about the development of that.
i've got a wolf 3d version 4 that i will have to program from scratch. i have a little problem with the pc discs, where i'm not able to use it on a pc, so will have to wait until i have it all wired up to set up the maps etc. i'm actually pretty happy that i ended up with a pulsar system, as there is a big market for them, compared to alfa's anyway. i'll need to look into the air filtration/cold air intake, as i had planned to keep the original system, but ducted directly to the little inlet hole. hopefully i can still use a proper cold air intake, but with something like a k&n filter??
unfortunately there is a bit more rust in places i would like it not to be, but i'm hopefull that it'll be localised still, and not too much drama.
so all in all it'll be interesting none the less ;)
well the project has taken a bit of a turn (all be it a while ago) where i now have a nice looking & pretty much rust free red 81 gtv.
things are moving slowly, SPAM has finally been renovated so hopefully we'll mpve a bit quicker now.
anyhow this is what the new baby looks like...
Hi ScuzzyGTV,
Just a little tip for you,where you have bolted the pulsar manifold to the Alfa manifold you need to fit a thermal barrier between the Alfa manifold and the Pulsar one or your inlet manifold will get as hot as your engine-not good.I used an insulation material called Tuffnol (brown stuff).
The Pulsar loom has one advantage I know of and that is the computer sits under the passenger seat,the Camira one goes in the glove box on my Alfa.
Cheers
Andrew
Don't be shy with the grinder around rust, BRIGHT METAL all round the edges please. Get yourself a flapper wheel for your grinder, hey are perfect for removing bog and paint, whilst not removing much metal.
You'll be filling a large area of metal surface after you weld in patches, so don't be worried about grinding too far back.
Some very good advice was given earlier about rust preventative coatings. Modern cars are made from metal panels that have weldable primers on them before assembly, have the body seams welded with a jointing compound in them that is also weldable, and more often than not also have a seam sealer applied over the top of that. Combine it with modern designs (look at how the bottom edge of windscreens finish on modern cars, no channel, water just runs straight off) and you know why rust is much worse in older cars.
I still really like a good rust preventative squirted liberally into the rear of body seams, but I also like a good coating of plain old tar based gravel stop, it goes on with the consistency of engine oil, seeps in well, then sets up to a good, flexible, tough coating that can be over coated with any auto paint. You can buy gravel stop in spray cans, which has a great, thin consistency for inside tight areas (runs well) or you can buy it in cans that a fairly cheap ($60) specialist gun screws on to and you use a compressor to apply it. This type of application is great for outside of sill panels etc, it is the economical and easy way to coat large areas.
You absolutely MUST try to coat the rear of any repairs you do and eliminate the cause of any water ingress to that area from happening again, else you will be revisiting it sooner than you may think.
This is the most important thing I will say to you, no matter who repairs the car for you, no matter how well you know them, make sure you personally take the time to coat and seal any suspect areas of body seams. No one else will do it properly and devote the time you will to do it properly.
As for your windscreen, a new screen is always a nice thing on an older car, makes the driving experience much nicer, always buy new rubbers for new windscreens, old rubbers shrink and rarely seal properly again, plus they ruin a good resto!
Regards, Andrew.
Thanks for the replys Andrew's
I'll look into the thermal barrier, as this is something I had not considered, but it makes perfect sence.
With the rusty blue one I'm thinking that I'll fix up the body work and save it for a future project (although my wife doesn't know this yet). I really appreciate all of the comments and advise given on here, it will make life much easier.
Cheers
Scott.