Hi
I'm currently in the process of installing a twin spark out of a 75 into a 64 Sprint GT and was wondering if anyone had seen a conversion of a twin spark into a 105 coupe that retained the 75's Air Con equipment? Does it fit or is it mission impossible?
Also, does anyone know if the Air Con in a V6 75 is the same as that fitted to the twin spark?
thanks in advance
Dan
leave the air con unit out and wind the window down .. ;D
If you open both windows you've got a split system!
What do you call it then if the front and rear windscreens are also left out? Climate control?
Nah mate, a near convertible (ie. spider !! ;D)
Most 105s have Dual Zone climate control as standard - great big rust F#%#$% holes in the doors and floors
Its dual zone coz usually one side has bigger rust holes than the other allowing different temperatures for driver and passenger..........
wind the windows down and enjoy those beautiful fume smells that vacuum and suck in from,well everywhere.ciao
Ahhhh jocularity! but not particularly helpful ;D
Quote from: Dan H on April 22, 2009, 05:05:10 PM
I'm currently in the process of installing a twin spark out of a 75 into a 64 Sprint GT and was wondering if anyone had seen a conversion of a twin spark into a 105 coupe that retained the 75's Air Con equipment? Does it fit or is it mission impossible?
Hi Dan.
I guess from the above responses, this conversion hasn't been attempted by many, though I can certainly empathise with their comments and add that what's said about Alfas also applies to any old European car.
You could try asking the question on the www.alfabb.com bulletin board. This is another larger information site mainly populated by our friends from the mighty US of A, but helpful nevertheless. Or failing that, try the UK based bulletin board at www.alfaowner.com
Let us know what transpires.
If it can't be done, as suggested above, you can always wind down the window and adjust the air flow with the loud pedal ;D
Chris
I take it you want the aircon as it's a daily driver , is it just the comfort factor you are after ?
Perhaps there's a smaller after market unit that you could fit, try an Auto Air con specialist.
Otherwise it's a big lump of weight to be added to the car.
Hey Dan,
Sorry I guess we havent been that helpful but it was a fun post ! ;D
Seriously though in terms of air con theres 2 litre 105s fitted
with a smiths unit under the dash, in fact a lot of 70s cars had this type of unit fitted.
Dont think its mission impossible (well maybe) - but if you can put a V6 or a mustang V8 in a 105
you can do anything
With a Twinspark engine in 105 running injection ah la 75 its tighter than a nuns nasty in the engine bay i.e theres not much room in there, so maybe you would need to relocate the battery in the boot, at least thats what alfa did with factory fitted air con in Alfetta GTVs , whereas non air con equipped cars had the battery in the bay. As the others have said search the Alfa BB there must be something you could do and you might find the answer to 75 air con question as well
Are you still using the 2 litre GTV as a daily driver?
Pep
I've seen photos of 105s fitted with aftermarket a/c, though with standard motors. The compressor unit fits in the engine bay quite well if you shift the battery to the boot. If the twin spark engine fits in the 105 bay and isn't significantly bigger than the standard twin cam engine, I can't see why an a/c compressor wouldn't fit as well. At least with the extra power you get from a twin spark, you'll still be able to drive uphill and have the a/c on simultaneously.
The main problem seems to be fitting the blower unit in the cabin and making it look as though it 'belongs'.
I'll see if I can find some pictures.
If you can't make it all work, you may have to move to Tasmania where the weather is a bit cooler ;)
Chris
Yeah the smiths blower unit in the cabin is a bit unsightly may be an issue.
I did see one pictured recently think it was on the BB. Not much physical size difference
between the engines only the additional plumbing for the injection, I think the compressor on the 75 runs
on the RHS under the intake down low which is opposite to the alfetta, LHS up high at head height or where the battery used to be. So come to think of it dont know if the battery in the boot will help. Unless you run the alfetta compressor with a modified bracket - anyway enough speculating
Tassie sounds good just ask Dave
Pep
Thanks for the posts folks - I'll have a bit of a look around the US and UK Alfa forums and see what I can find.
I have seen those under dash units before - the old Peugeot 504s also had something similar. It might not look too bad in the sprint GT as it has the much simpler dash without any real centre console to speak of. If anyone knows of any of these floating around, let me know.
I'm still using the GTV 2000 as my daily driver, but the Sprint GT will replace it as my daily driver once I've finished the project (a long way away at this stage). Unfortunately having the windows down and the fan running full bore is not much of a help when you're stuck in Melbourne traffic.
When looking for my GTV2000 I also had the intention of getting one with an A/C to make it more driveable throughout the year. However the lack of GTVs with A/C for sale and the realisation that I would probably only drive my 105 to work on non rainy and not really hot days meant it was not such an issue for me.
I had also heard that there may be more starting issues with the battery in the boot (voltage drop etc) and also the safety factor of batteries been close to fuel tanks was another turn off!
Cheers
Tim
Found a couple of pictures from the alfabb board.
This is an installation on a standard twin cam. If the compressor goes in a different spot on the twin spark, then it's anyones guess if it will fit.
The interior doesn't look too bad.
Chris
My car had the air unit under the dash / glove box . and battery had been moved to the boot ( where it is still situated ) to make room for the compressor. To be honest the cooling factor of the unit wasn't great, It may have just been out of gas . You might as well rolll down the window or
Quote from: Evan Bottcher on April 22, 2009, 08:54:59 PM
If you open both windows you've got a split system!
I could look for the unit if you are interested, but I think it may have been chucked out.
I had a chat to Marinello motors about aircon in my 17fidy because my heater needed a new motor and I thought I would consider it before I went and got the heater fixed. I got a similar solution suggested, with battery moved to the boot, but when I considered loss of power, the potential additional issues you potentially create with the cars cooling system, the amount of times I would use it versus the window and putting the heater on cold flow thru (which works well on hot days up to about 28 - 30 degrees unless theres a northerly hot wind) and importantly the amount of additional stress on the engine block and the holes in the fire wall/body work, I decided not to muck around with my 17fidy and enjoy it as is.
1750GT
The only photo I could find an under dash installation in a 105 Coupe.
Think I might stick to the open 1/4 windows.
Chris
1750GTV, looks like a useless unit for the driver and the rear seat passengers; but it reminds me of some great memories of a similar unit I had in my ford RS2000 many moons ago when I was alot younger.
It was a late 70's model in burnt orange and a real chick magnate. Anyway the car came fully loaded from the UK except it had no aircon and Ford Aus would fit a huge long unit under the glove box, similar to the one in the 105 except longer. Whilst it didn't direct airflow directly to the driver it was a beast of a unit for one reason and one reason alone! It was great for when the women, with short skirts sat in the passenger seat on a hot day and of course I would do the right thing and turn on the aircon, a great drive and a great distraction when I had a looker in the passenger seat! skirt flowing wanderingly with the airflow from the aircon.
Ah, the joys of under dash aircon, don't really know why I got rid of that car?
1750GT
Quote from: 1750GT on April 26, 2009, 12:02:43 AM
1750GTV, looks like a useless unit for the driver and the rear seat passengers;
How often do you have rear seat passengers in a 105 ? ??? I think I have only punished people twice by squeezing them in the back, needless to say they haven't been in the back seat since ! :D
Hi Dan,
As you and I have previously discussed offline, I'm also in the process of dropping a Twin Spark into a 105. Like you, I'd also like to install air con into my car... particularly after the summer we just had in Melbourne.
At the moment, I'm looking at one of those combined heater/air con units that a few companies manufacture in the US for the custom street/hotrod market over there. The dimensions of these units (see attached diagram) are typically pretty compact... hopefully compact enough to be installed up inside the dash of a 105 Alfa in place of the standard Alfa heater unit.
I'm thinking it shouldn't be too difficult to plumb the heater/air con unit into the existing Alfa dash vents, and it may even be possible to rig something up to re-use the existing Alfa fresh air inlet mechanism.
Apart from that, relocating the Alfa 75 air con compressor from down low on the driver's side to up high on the passenger side (ie in place of the Alfa 75 power steering compressor) should not be too difficult with some creative bracketry and relocation of the battery into the boot... famous last words, perhaps.
Cheers,
Nick
Quote from: Dan H on April 22, 2009, 05:05:10 PM
I'm currently in the process of installing a twin spark out of a 75 into a 64 Sprint GT and was wondering if anyone had seen a conversion of a twin spark into a 105 coupe that retained the 75's Air Con equipment? Does it fit or is it mission impossible?
I have a TS in my (damaged) 1969 GTV, no a/c, but with the TS you already have a problem of where to put an air box. Currently my car just uses a foam filter sock, and though it may be possible to find an airbox that can be fitted, it's a small space. Also the space for the radiator overflow tank is doubled up with the washer bottle, which is an awkward arrangement. The point is, if you want to fit a/c too, something's got to go elsewhere.
Not sure if it will fit but you get an AC under dash blower unit from a later model US Spider to go under the dash inplace of the regular blower? Spiders from the 80's often had air fitted and some of these are now being dismantled. Try De Noya Trading post Ebay shop. I know he has some & will post to Australia if you ask him nicely.
Hi Folks - I drove a 105 Junior with 2L for twenty years, and eventually put air con in it. Being an Alfa owner I'm not a "yu cant do that person". I used an under dash unit in the middle, but a better way is to get a series3 spider heater/aircon or convert an Alfetta type. I have converted a Guiletta unit since the inlet vent on the top is exactly the same shape as the air inlet in a 105, just the wrong way round. With some inventive rejigging (reverse it) the angle matches the 105 hole perfectly. http://www.philipstorr.id.au/spider/trunk.htm
Alfetta's position of the compressor is not good, it splits the top of the head oil galleys. With the 75TS Alfa choose the correct position, no stress on the cylinder head and on the opposite side to the exhaust so the air con hoses are away from that heat. The 75TS uses a Sanden 505, now numbered a SD5. In my installation I used an SD7. ebay for "Sanden air con". I mounted my compressor bottom front right same spot as a TS on a 105 2L using a US Spider 115 2L front engine section and US spider water pump. Essentially I placed the compressor where the spica mechanical pump normally goes. Lloyd Clonan of START in SA and myself designed a bracket which is basically a heavy steel plate that fits between the RHS engine bracket and extends all the way to the front of the engine, fitting flush with the engine block and the front timing chain housing since this is possible by using that front metal work from a US spica engine. The US spica water pump elevates the lower radiator hose away from the compressor belt. Tension is achieved by adjusting the position of the compressor, hinging on the lower mount points. We designed the mounting lugs so that the bracket could take either an SD5 or SD7 sanden. Lloyd may be able to supply a bracket if requested.
For the condensor at the front the unit from an Alfetta or 75 TS is what I used, it is a two row, and the same dimension as a 105 series 2 radiator. I mounted it as far forward as possible, with a Davies Craig fan attached to it between it and the radiator and sucking air through it. To have some distance between condensor and radiator means the Hi/Lo safety switch will not operate when the heat from the radiator permeates through to the condensor. I had to angle the radiator back at a bit of a slant to allow for the mid mounted fan. I found use of the original radiator plastic shround to be critical in conjunction with the water pump driven fan. The end result was a car I could drive to work on the hotest of days, and survive. I consider the issue of air conditioning to be a safety issue, not something to be derided. It gets hot in Adelaide. I don't own the Junior anymore but have recovered the bracket from the new owner. He earnestly informed me that it did not fit, which is nosense since it was fitted to the car when he bought it.
This weekend I removed a TS engine from a wreck. I think looking at the TS setup, that the compressor might be sitting about half an inch futher out than Lloyds and my custom bracket which will be critical. There was maybe half an inch clearance between the compressor and the body. Now that I have a TS engine to look at, if people want I will find my 115 SD5/7 bracket and compare the two, since I know mine fits. Another point is that an electric fuel pump needed to be used, since the spica cam chain housing has no provision for a mechanical pump. I have thought to discuss with Lloyd how difficult it might be to adapt our bracket design to the 105 cam chain housing, albeit using a US spica type pump to clear the compressor belt and electric fuel pump.
Cheers for now, Mark Barrington.
I just carefully read all the posts on this topic and just remembered yet another aspect to my air conditioning in a 105 saga. I had a three row radiator, 17 fins per inch made, which is basically a reasonably high spec radiator. The original 105 radiator is very good, I just think the new one I had made was a bit better, and it was necessary to keep the engine at the proper temperature. I also arranged a thermostat to activate the electric fan to cut in when the engine temperature became highish. Another quandry was whether or not to operate the fan constantly when the air conditioning was on. or to just have it cut in when the compressor was on. The later choice often meant the air con gas never was condensed properly, so it is probably best to have it running constantly when the air conditioner is operating. There were numbers of iterations of the installation, and I have only detailed the successful points in the previous two emails. It is because the knowledge that I gained in the exercise was hard won that I have felt it important to actually list all that I can recall about what it took to get the system to work and the car to not overheat.
Image of a MKIV under dash unit in the centre of a Junior. Also the engine bay, but unfortunately I have no shots of the compressor area. Note the padding in front of the radiator, it is slanted back a bit, and also the adjustable thermofan switch with knob on the left of the radiator. These are the only evidence from this view of the air conditioning installation.
The under dash unit. As I suggested in a previous post, an Alfetta / Guilietta unit would be better, especially with a centre console in place.
Thanks all
There seem to be a few aftermarket air-con systems that could fit underneath/behind the dash and use the existing vents. A combined heater/air con unit could replace the existing Alfa heater. There is a place in Qld that Nick H put me onto called Speedy Air Spares (they have a website) who could provide pretty much everything you need, brand new, for around $1000. There is also a place called Vintage Air out of the US that makes systems where the controls for the units operate electronic servos - pretty much the same as modern vehicles but they are a bit pricier.
Dan
Hi Dan
I had a look at my newly acquired twin spark engine and the aluminium bracketry that the compressor is mounted on. I reckon that 75 TS Sanden 505/SD5 compressor is sitting at least 3/4" or more further out than my custom bracket. This would result in the compressor being hard up against the body work, but I may be wrong. The positve observation I have is that the block on the 75 has a flat surface behind the compressor and on the same line as the engine mount very similar to the old 2L block and front housing of the US Spica engine. Hence a bracket like the one I created could be used to position the compressor as close to the engine block as possible, which is really the key to mounting the compressor in that location.
There is a curious sender unit of some sort protruding from the TS engine block between the block and compressor. Can anyone tell me what this is?
When I find my bracket, I'll post photo of it. Cheers
Mark
Hi Mark,
The sender unit on the Twin Spark block (ie near the air con compressor mounting point) is the Alfa 75 minimum oil level warning lamp sender.... clearly an optional item on a 105 ;D
As mentioned in previous posts on this, I'm also dropping a Twin Saprk into a 105, and, like Dan H, I also want to fit air con. If you can provide drawings and/or photos of your bracket, that would be great. I'm currently thinking I might need a more compact compressor than the standard Alfa 75 Sanden unit... might be time to fossick around the wreckers yard again.
Nick
Hi Mark,
Just reviewing some of my old posts... have you managed to find and photograph your custom air con compressor bracket?
Regards,
Nick
Under dash A/C units are still readily available, Cooldrive Industries in Box Hill have a large range of them. The units themselves are not overly expensive but the fitting of the condensor, compressor and the plumbing will be. If the Alfa compressor has pad style fittings it will be very difficult to have hoses made up and after market fittings generally do not fit. If the compressor has standard "o"ring fittings it may not be so bad. It will be an expensive exercise. We do a lot of early Mustang A/C fitments at my work and anything is possible if you throw enough dollars at it.
Good luck David
By the way Cooldrive is also an agent for Vintage Air, If you want prices on these things call me at work Cameron Autoelectrics on 03 97395458 and I will see what I can do but you may need to talk to cooldrive first so you know what unit you need.
Thanks David
I assumption from the aloft responses, this about-face hasn't been attempted by many, admitting I can absolutely empathise with their comments and add that what's said about Alfas aswell applies to any old European car. With a Twinspark engine in 105 active bang ah la 75 its tighter than a nuns awful in the engine bay i.e theres not abundant allowance in there, so maybe you would charge to backpack the array in the boot, at atomic thats what alfa did with branch adapted air con in Alfetta GTVs , admitting non air con able cars had the array in the bay.
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