Hi all - long time lurker here. I recently bought a 2000 156 TS manual, which I'm loving, except for the clattering rattling centre muffler which is clearly broken. Yesterday I had a loss of power going up a hill and I reckon the exhaust flow was restricted, so I need it fixed. I've been getting a lot of "well, the standard exhaust kit is very expensive" advice and I wondered, what's the thinking on aftermarket stuff, can I just replace it with a pipe without waking up the neighbourhood, and what should I be paying?
I'm in Hobart so any recommendations for a place to take it would be fantastic too. Thanks all.
Cheers,
Matthew.
G'day, are you sure it's not the cat(s) failing?
Thanks for your reply. It basically sounds like a handful of bolts in a large can being shaken around, and it comes and goes with the rev range and the angle the car is at (uphill vs downhill, for example). It seems certain that there are pieces of loose whatever rattling around inside, and so I would guess the cat isn't working as a result. Is it possible for the cat to fail but not need a muffler replacement? Would there be a difference?
I'm assuming that it has the two barrel-like precats under a heat shield at the front of the motor, then a flex coupling to flange fitting and a flattened oval catalytic converter. Then from another flange coupling, a small central muffler and eventually a larger rear muffler.
Is this correct?
If so, you can pop off the secondary cat and give it a shake. The lambda sensor remains attached unless you disengage it from all its clips. But there should be sufficient indication of whether the converter is giving up.
CB, the 2000 156 TS has a different setup to the 147 & 156 JTS that you are describing.
It has only one Cat and one Lambda (Oxygen) sensor.
The Cat is located after the flexible coupling with the Lambda sensor in front of the CAT.
Matt, by what you have described the Cat has broken up within the casing, you can remove the Cat Housing and do one of 2 things -
A/ Empty the broken pieces out and using a suitable long pole/crow bar knock the rest of the failed Cat out of the housing & refit.
B/ Replace it with a straight through pipe.
But be aware both contravene ADR & Emissions regulations and we would never condone such actions on here . . . ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Baz
Interesting insights - thanks! However, since I lack ramps or a hoist and my back is not in its best shape, I kind of doubt I should be tinkering with a system I'm unfamiliar with. Am I more or less guaranteed a hefty price tag if I take it to an exhaust shop?
Probably the most adventurous things I've done are replacing the crank sensor on a 147 TS, and the cam cover gasket on an old 116 GTV 2.0. Plus basic things like cleaning connections, AFM seals, replacing relays etc. I have basic mechanical sense but not a lot of experience with serious DIY.
Quote from: bazzbazz on February 07, 2018, 12:03:09 PM
CB, the 2000 156 TS has a different setup to the 147 & 156 JTS that you are describing.
It has only one Cat and one Lambda (Oxygen) sensor.
My understanding is that the 156 TS exhaust is better than the 147 TS because it is sans the 147s two flow choking pre-cats, and this gave the room needed for Alfa to fit the 156 with a better header having longer primary pipes (giving better mid range more than better outright power, though I think it has that too).
I had an annoying intermitent exhaust rattle / buzz that I failed to find any external reason for, so was suspecting an internal cat disintegration in process (which I did my best to ignore...). Some time later......I found the actual culprit, a broken weld attaching (or not...) a metal heat shield onto the exhaust pipe where it passes beneath the engine. Tied it down tightly with some coat hanger wire, fixed!
Regards,
John.
The CF2/Euro2 emission reg (up to November 2000) 156 TS has just the one cat, after the one and only lambda probe.
Unlike the CF3/Euro3 version of the TS in the 147, which like the 156 JTS has pre-cats, multiple lambda probes.
The plus of the CF2/Euro2 is that the replacement of the cat; coring of the cat, or removal and replacement with a straight through pipe will not (negatively) affect the engines control parameters or settings. Or throw up warning lights!
Natch , the reading at the end of the exhaust pipe won't be as per OE emission specs though ...
Hi John, yes had the same metal bracket (part 4 in the eper diagram)about an inch wide at the first flange of the exhaust manifold crack also. Googled the buzz it made at just on 3000rpm and lo and behold it's very common! Got my mech to weld it up.
Had just fitted a CSC rear muffler to try and give the 156 a bit of a an exhaust tone, compared to my three 33's it's way too quiet!
This is a good, quick link to what we're on about
http://www.ebspares.co.uk/alfa156/exhaust16_alfa156.cfm
Hi Matt,
From memory Duk spent a while in Hobart, he seemed to know Weatherhead and a few other choice contacts - maybe send him a message to see if there's someone he'd endorse.
Wonderful help thanks guys.
I presume replacement with a straight pipe would not be legal? Is ordering one of those replacement cats a viable option? are they advisable as a wrecker part, or usually better to go with a new one?
And last question - are 3rd party options any cheaper and will they affect performance too much? It's a nice car to drive when it's working!
hi matt,
It's all up to you really. I do note that the pipe eb spares is selling looks like they're a generic 400cm ceramic core catalytic converter. The factory, standard ones you (we) have on our twin-sparks are much bigger cylindrical units. Any good exhaust shop can remove that section, cut out the old converter and replace with a new correct capacity Euro2 ceramic catatlytic converter and suitable 2" pipe to place it in the correct spot. ie:
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/CATALYTIC-CONVERTER-2-50-8MM-UNIVERSAL-EURO-II-CERAMIC-CORE-400-CELL/272555641006?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
or Magnaflow ...
https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Magnaflow-High-Flow-2-Inch-Catalytic-Converter-Stainless-Steel-Body-91004-New/170406725933?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
It's all pretty straightforward stuff for a good exhaust shop, and would be way cheaper than trying to get a new OE, Original One. Honestly, in this instance, in my opinion, I don't think going the EB option is cost effective. Especially as there's a 30 GBP 'fee' that only gets refunded when you return your old catalytic converter. ie: your cost to post the old one back? Seems they're either re-using the existing piping and doing what I've just mentioned above? Or reclaiming the precious metals in the old cat?
Second hand from a wreckers? Mmmm... Even it it don't rattle, it may be about to in the next 10km/1000km... or may be 'blocked' Or it may be okay? You won't know till you've gone to all the trouble of removal and refitting ... If you don't feel comfortable D I Y 'ing I'd just get a couple of quotes from a recommended exhaust shop in the town you are. Then it's been done properly and you don't have to worry about it !
Thanks again - fantastic advice and community spirit here.
If anyone wants to sell me the handbrake button from a spares car drop me a PM too!
Hi MattK Sorry for coming in late but had other pressing matters.
Had to replace the catalytic converter on my 2000 156 TS about 8 years back that had travelled @ 250,000kms. It was replaced by a local muffler specialist who supplied and fitted a suitable aftermarket unit by cutting out the old one and MIG welding the new unit at a total all up cost of $250. Suggest you give a local muffler specialist a call and ask for a quote. A quick search on the net in the Hobart region has identified several able to provide this service.
cheers
bonno
Sounds great - and now that I know I'm asking for a 2" pipe, 400 core Euro2 ceramic cat, I won't sound like a bunny when I'm giving them a call. The ballpark price is extremely helpful thanks. It has 177k on the clock, by the way, and is otherwise in great shape.
Alternatively, you can have aftermarket cat + muffler for around $250 delivered.
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2848-CATAYLYTIC-CONVERTER-CAT-TYPE-APPROVED-FOR-ALFA-ROMEO-156-2-0-1997-2000/161883900501?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649
Nice one, thanks! I'll ask them for a quote and look at buying the part if they're way over that. I feel I should take it to a shop rather than DIY because I'm pretty sure there's a manifold leak too, I can hear that flickering/fluttering sound which is almost like a valve noise.
Quote from: warsch on February 08, 2018, 12:09:39 PM
Alternatively, you can have aftermarket cat + muffler for around $250 delivered.
You saved me a BUNDLE. I went to Moonah Mufflers (so far, a recommend for any Hobart folks reading) and they had a look on the hoist, confirmed that the rattle is loose broken stuff inside the cat assembly, and warned me that the Alfa part would be expensive because of the weird setup inside (the guy reckoned two cats and a baffle box). I said hey I can order this one from the UK for $260 and his eyes widened, he took a look and said yeah that's it all right, go for it! Reckoned he couldn't even get an aftermarket replacement for that price and that it'd be a bad choice anyway because it'd make the car sound bad. Said it'll be $50-70 to fit and won't need any new gaskets or anything. And then gave me a tip on where to find cheap parts for European cars in town.
Only drawback is I have to wait six weeks for delivery. Oh and the fluttering noise isn't a manifold leak, worse luck.
Anyway HUGE thanks to the members here who took the time to help and shared their expertise.
Can they have it overnight for "further testing"? ;)
Ha - I don't think a well-mannered 2 litre saloon was making anyone's pulse race there (except mine). For what it's worth the guy agreed that the loose parts inside would be causing my power losses (funny how blocking the exhaust flow affects the engine's running). I was kind of hoping he'd drive a screw through the side to pin it down for a couple of weeks, but I guess that would produce catalytic confetti.
Matt
Contact the seller thru e-bay and request for quote for delivery to Hobart URGENT delivery (2-3 days) or just wait the 6 weeks. Did the muffler guy mention anything regarding any short term damage if left and driven this way. Maybe check with him to verify prior to getting it delivered ASAP and paying the additional cost for freight.
cheers
bonno
The joys of Tas Post. Order, wait, wait, wait, declare item MIA, re-order, wait, arrive massively damaged, re-order, wait, receive damaged but usable.
They didn't seem concerned about it, I just drove it in, they put it on the hoist to check out, then I drove it away. If I had to guess I would say the power loss is more an engine management thing based on anomalous sensor readings, rather than something mechanically risky. It's been driving pretty well the last few weeks with occasional slowdowns - it's more the rattle noise driving me insane.
If people feel it's a risk I am prepared to listen to reason though.
Don't load the motor excessively, watch your temp gauge and monitor the oil level.
Is your thermostat good? Many at that age are overdue for replacement if never done before.
I'm getting a timing belt change in the near future, I expect Steve will look over the pulleys and he mentioned the water pump - I'll ask his opinion on the thermostat. It had a pretty solid service history when I got it, but no indication of a belt change.
Its generally worth changing the water pump at same time as the belt, and absolutely if yours still has the original plastic impeller.
ALL Pulleys, belts AND Water Pump MUST be changed when doing a cam-belt change. To do otherwise invites disaster.
Agree, too risky to do otherwise. Just gone thru purchasing through e-bay cambelt and balance shaft kit that includes idlers and water pump for my 2.0L JTS at a cost of under $350.
Will definitely get the whole thing changed out - I doubt Steve would let me get away with a half done job.
Had some odd noises sounding like belts rubbing on plastic covers today. Took it home but the noises stopped on the way, replaced by a bit of a moan from what I think might be the power steering pump (it changed pitch as I turned the steering wheel). Accessory belt for that?
Sounds likely to be a PS pump, which tend to make a moaning noise that rises and falls as the steering is turned. Have you checked the fluid level? Low fluid often causes PS moan.
My old Accord once developed a problem with the auxilliary belt rubbing on the plastic timing cover (sounded a bit like a not very load supercharger belt drive). It never caused a real problem and after a while it went away, but while it was happening I failed to find where the noise was coming from, despite looking and looking (yes I'd have thought it would have been easy to find too...).
Found the problem eventually when I took the auxilliary drive belt off, and found the old evidence on the cover behind the belt edge. It went away of its' own accord (no pun intended) because the belt rubbed the plastic away until there was no longer any contact, just a slotted hole in the cover...
Regards,
John.
The fluid is touching the MIN mark on the little dipstick - I guess I could top it up to see if it helps. Will any red PSP fluid be OK, or is there a specific recommendation?
Also the fuel tank sender reports half a tank when it's full - should I be hunting a bad connection or is a problem with the sensor more common?
Dexron II or III ATF fluid will do nicely for the power steering.
As for the fuel gage the problem will be the fuel sender, which is part of the "in tank" fuel pump. You need to buy a new fuel pump (check eBay or Supercheap - just make sure it is correct for your year & model)
Matt
Dexron 111 Power steering fluid is the recommended product for your car refer to Penrite website link http://www.datateck.com.au/Lube/PenriteAus/
Thanks guys
Update - replacement centre muffler arrived today, quite different to the original, with a cat and a resonator tacked together I think. Much smaller overall:
(https://i.imgur.com/9yg29E4.jpg)
Took my exhaust guy an hour plus to fit it because the rear flange was pressed not machined, and was slightly the wrong size by a very small margin so it leaked. After a few tries he cut the rear off the original and welded it onto the replacement, which worked fine after some size adjustment.
Old cat shed a flake of metal when he pulled it off - must have been what blocked the exhaust and led to power loss that time.
(https://i.imgur.com/dX44mmA.jpg)
Seems fine after all that - no apparent change in power etc but the death rattle is gone. Thanks to everyone for their help.
One thing I will say is it's louder - not in a good way necessarily, just more low frequency noise under the floor. I tend to prefer induction noise to exhaust anyway.
Hi guys,
Im experiencing the exact same issues as described in this thread (tinny sound above 3k) but mines a 2001. Any advice?
Take it to an exhaust place and have them confirm it's the centre muffler?