Hi everyone
It looks like my GTA won't start because there's no power getting to the injectors. I'm told it could well be an ECU failure.
Just looking to see from those more knowledgeable than myself what my options are...
- I hear Autolusso make an aftermarket ECU for approx $3K - any opinions on these?
- Is ECU repair an option?
- Is my GTA basically just spare parts now?
Many thanks,
AMR
Hi, and first up...
DON'T PANIC
This could be a really, really simple issue. Your first step is - assuming you're not especially hands on - to get it in the shed with someone who runs good diagnostic software.
Even if the ECU is crook, there are some forms of repair possible, else you can buy a donor ECU kit consisting of engine ECU, under-dash body computer, immobiliser chip. So long as you have one immobiliser chip, others can be "cloned". There's no change of the key blades or anything like that.
Hi, cheers for the reply.
It's sitting with an alfa mechanic now, apparently no faults came up in the scan so trying to diagnose the issue by elimination.
And yeah spot on, not particularly hands on with this stuff. GTA engine bay has no space anyway so wouldn't know where to start.
Mechanic mentioned there's no power getting to the injectors and the potential ECU issue. Am bringing in the spare key, think he's looking to rule out immobiliser problems.
With the ECU stuff, he mentioned it could be potentially a $3K sort of outlay to get a one. Apparently they don't make new ones anymore.
Does that sound about right?
Thanks again
$3K sounds a bit over the top.
I need to point out right now, my only Alfa exposure is 147 four cylinder models; there is a fair degree of electrical overlap with the 156 V6 but not 100%.
In the diagnosis, lack of immobiliser communication is usually a clearly identifiable issue with its own "fault codes". Checking every ground, the big fuses atop the battery (I'd be suspicious of these ones!), then the under bonnet fuse box and finally the under dash fuse panel is a good way to work diligently through these supplies.
With the V6, apparently one giveaway of ECU failure is if it will start and idle (poorly) with the motorised throttle unplugged.
Thanks for the input.
The only other clue I can think of is that the car was starting to idle unevenly over the last month or so. I'd already intended to get it looked at in the next service prior to it not starting.
But yeah it would hold the normal idle, then dip the revs slightly for a fraction of a second then be fine and dip again. This would continue for as long as the car was at idle. It was certainly driveable but a little bit annoying. With the throttle open and driving above parking speeds it was fine.
Does this info shed anymore light do you think?
Any GTA owners/mechanics feel free to jump in as well :)
I'm no expert on GTA issues, but it seems from this thread on UK site alfaowner that ECU failure is a (feared) recognised problem for the GTA. The replacement kit they refer to is priced at £1800, so $3k sounds like it probably is the market price.
Best of luck with the diagnosis - hopefully something simpler/cheaper.
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gta/1080658-autolusso-gta-ecu-replacement-kit.html (http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gta/1080658-autolusso-gta-ecu-replacement-kit.html)
FYI - this may help you with diagnosis - from the same UK thread:
Also interested. What are the warning signs / symptoms of a failing ecu?
Flickering engine light when you turn the ignition on, throttlebody clicking in time with it. Engine won't start unless throttlebody unplugged.
Thanks mate much appreciated. I've just gone through the Autolusso website but can't find the GTA ECU kit.....I've sent a quick email asking about it.
Cheers
Informative reading:
http://www.alfaowner.com/Forum/alfa-gta/375231-147gta-diy-ecu-repair.html#/topics/375231?page=1
Good find CB - that might be a handy starting point for Amrus' mechanic.
.. you should talk to Bazz (on the spot Alfa).
as I understand it the GTA ECU can develop dry joints and issues with surface mounted components. It can be fixed, replaced etc.
As above there are lengthy threads and info on the interwebs about it (if you know to look obviously)
I wouldn't spend to much time with a non Alfa indie trying to diagnose this, you'll just be paying them to learn what others already know.
Craig
(edit) - i flicked him an email with a link to this thread.
Ok, I have had to repair faulty ECUs many at time, the latest just last week.
1/ First of all what warning lights are on the dash when you turn key to ignition (MAR) ?
All lights should go out except Engine, Battery, Oil & Hand Brake lights. If the dash is lit up like a Christmas tree with VDC, ABS &
others, that's a sign of ECU failure.
2/ If the ECU fails you should NOT be able to connect to the ECU with diagnostics
3/ To confirm its the ECU simply disconnect the Throttle Body cable, it's the connector that goes to the Throttle Body and is just under the
mouth of the Throttle Body. Once the cable is disconnected you should now be able to start the car easily, there will just be no response
from the accelerator pedal.
If the 3 above indicators are not present then it may not be the Engine ECU, if all 3 ARE present then it is guaranteed that the ECU is FUBAR!
Has any progress been made? :D
I like how there's been three separate mentions of disconnecting the throttle body to see if it starts, and he still hasn't listened or responded to it.
You'll also probably hear a whining sound from the throttle body when the plug is still connected, this is a dead giveaway of a back-feed through the circuit and means the ECU is dead.
Hopefully you'll take on board some of this useful information.
Mick.
Hi all very much appreciate everything that's been written here. I've just logged back in after a crazy week, apologies if that came off as unappreciative. Not much I can do given it's sitting with my alfa mechanic, though I have directed him to some of the info here as a potential help.
So the update:
There were no fault codes, crank sensor seemed fine. Attempting to start the car with disconnected throttle body was on the list of things to do but my mechanic wanted to do a few other checks first. He basically disconnect a lot of the electrics, checked fuses etc, nothing overtly wrong that he could see.
BUT
When he re-connected everything and turned the key the engine started! As if nothing had ever been wrong....
So that leaves another problem, that is, what was the original problem to begin with?
My laymans instinct reckons it's something to do with the sheer amount of heat the GTA engine bay generates. I recently learned that this heat actually gets worse after the car is turned off and that explains, why in the past, attempting to start again after a drive has sometimes been difficult. Once it cools down it would start first time.
Does that give any clues?
Without any diagnostic screenshots, it's hard to suggest anything. All would be conjecture. Most ECUs of this vintage will start and idle with nearly all sensors disconnected save for crank and cam.
Crankshaft sensor is on its way out would be my bet.
When they heat up car wont start, when they cool down car starts again.
And when is the most likely time the car is hooked up to diagnostics, when its in the workshop and engine cold, that's also why it may not show up as an error.
A failing crank sensor often shows up by the tachometer not reading right... You'd spot that in a jiffy, being trained in avionics.
Interesting. Still though, it only started after everything was disconnected and reconnected. Car had been cold for a number of days prior to this so I wonder if this means it could be something other than the crank sensor?
Car had been idling rough for a month before, little blips downward in revs, slowly increasing in frequency.
It's a weird one. I guess the frustrating thing is not knowing if it'll happen again given we never figured out the cause.. :-\
Another one which can trap people is a dishonest fuel gauge.
Quote from: amrus1 on January 30, 2018, 06:22:18 PM
Interesting. Still though, it only started after everything was disconnected and reconnected. Car had been cold for a number of days prior to this so I wonder if this means it could be something other than the crank sensor?
Car had been idling rough for a month before, little blips downward in revs, slowly increasing in frequency.
It's a weird one. I guess the frustrating thing is not knowing if it'll happen again given we never figured out the cause.. :-\
Well the problem simply could have been just that, a faulty connection somewhere. 99% of all electrical problems are bad connections.
Could it be wiring connectors. Reseating it could have improved a previously dodgy connection
Quote from: amrus1 on January 30, 2018, 02:25:12 AM
BUT
When he re-connected everything and turned the key the engine started! As if nothing had ever been wrong....
So that leaves another problem, that is, what was the original problem to begin with?
My laymans instinct reckons it's something to do with the sheer amount of heat the GTA engine bay generates. I recently learned that this heat actually gets worse after the car is turned off and that explains, why in the past, attempting to start again after a drive has sometimes been difficult. Once it cools down it would start first time.
Does that give any clues?
One way to test your theory is to simulate the condition at the earliest possible opportunity.
Good call. Picking it up today, will do this.
Thinking of doing the CF2 manifold mod to try to reduce engine bay temp also.
****UPDATE****
The issue happened again! Disconnected the throttle body and sure enough, it started. I turned it off again, reconnected the throttle body and still the car started.
So I guess this means the ECU is on the way out.
Thank you to all who helped along the way.
Now the question is:
1. What are the options with a failing ECU?
2. Is there a way to mount a repaired/secondhand/new ECU which is not right on the heat of the throttle body?
Autolusso quoted $4000 AUD for a new virginized ECU. Not ideal.....
1. Have it professionally repaired, including something like the flowable silicone protectant over the top. Ask Bazz for a price.
2. It's vibration, not heat, that does it. Keep the motor mounts and suspension in good shape to minimise repair frequency - once every fifteen or so years, is not too bad.
My personal experience with Autolusso involved paying a good amount of money in advance for new items they only partially delivered, then being fobbed off with excuses and a used part so bad it went in the bin. I will never go near them again. I have some good contacts and cordial arrangements with people in the UK, however Autolusso won't ever make that list.
Based on your location being in Melbourne and the UNCERTAINTY of ECU failure, I would take it to a local ECU repairer for a check and possible quote & repair (search the net in Melbourne). It would be a shame to arrange the repair of ECU thru Baz and find out it was a waste of time and money because it was some other fault, as identified above (faulty crankhaft sensor).
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys but before blaming the poor ECU I would find a spare throttle body from some where, wreckers even, and swap it with your current one & test drive for a period of time.
The fact that all he does is unplug the Throttle body and plug it back in and she's off again points more to the throttle body module than the ECU. Either that or the actual plug that connects to the throttle body. I would get a Auto Electrician to check the Throttle body plug & socket first, then try a spare Throttle body from someone.
I could be wrong, but it's a lot cheaper to try a different Throttle body first, than to send an innocent ECU for repair.
I am sure someone in Melb would have a spare on hand that they would be happy to loan you.
Just a thought.
Will put that to my mechanic Bazz, cheers :)
Also, regarding ECUs on the GTA, was it not a problem to mount them on the engine from a heat point of view?
If it turns out to be an ECU problem, is it possible to mount it elsewhere once repaired to ensure there's no repeat (whether it be a heat or vibration issue as Citroënbender mentioned)?
Quote from: bazzbazz on February 02, 2018, 08:53:01 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence guys but before blaming the poor ECU I would find a spare throttle body from some where, wreckers even, and swap it with your current one & test drive for a period of time.
The fact that all he does is unplug the Throttle body and plug it back in and she's off again points more to the throttle body module than the ECU. Either that or the actual plug that connects to the throttle body. I would get a Auto Electrician to check the Throttle body plug & socket first, then try a spare Throttle body from someone.
I could be wrong, but it's a lot cheaper to try a different Throttle body first, than to send an innocent ECU for repair.
I am sure someone in Melb would have a spare on hand that they would be happy to loan you.
Just a thought.
Quote from: amrus1 on February 04, 2018, 01:03:50 PM
Also, regarding ECUs on the GTA, was it not a problem to mount them on the engine from a heat point of view?
If it turns out to be an ECU problem, is it possible to mount it elsewhere once repaired to ensure there's no repeat (whether it be a heat or vibration issue as Citroënbender mentioned)?
No, the ECU Cables won't reach if you move it.