Hi guys,
I'm new here and I'm seriously looking at taking the plunge and buying a 2005 156 JTS Selespeed sportswagon. I've been reading various threads on here about the 156 but i still have a couple of questions. Basically the issue of reliabilty is a big one. The later version of the 156 seems to be fairly solid as long as you take care in servicing etc. Is this the general consensus? Also, I'm looking at 1 that has 35K kms on it and is 3 years old. I know the cam belt needs replacing at around 40 - 50k kms or at 3 years. The car is just over 3 years old but owner doesn't feel that it needs replacing until the 50k km mark regardless of time...should this be a concern?
I really love the look and drive of the car and my heart is telling me to go for it. My head and wallet are telling me to be cautious as it could put me in a hole.
Hope you guys can help ease my worries
Cam
I owned a 156 selespeed wagon for 4 years (2003-2006), no problems. I found the change from 1st to 2nd not particularly smooth, so would take my foot off the accelerator - it seemed to make it smoother. As for the cam belt - I've changed the one in my 164Q every 3 years for the last 15 years, - no problems. It all depends if you want to gamble a few thousand dollars of damage against a few hundred for the belt ;-)
Very briefly, the updated model had a better selespeed gearbox and you are looking at a car that's not too old. In reality $35k is not much. A good choice indeed.
However, get the car checked out before you buy it by a qualified professional who knows the car. Do a pre-purchase inspection and you get the facts for a small cost. They will tell you what has to be done, how soon, how much (if any $) and how the car is - also if the belt needs changing.
It's also good info for negotiating the final price as you are dealing with the facts and cost as is.
This all limits the risk and the worries, so you can enjoy the car.
Cheers.
Thanks Joe and John. Yeah well this may be a handy negotiation point. It was the 1st time I've driven an alfa and I liked it. The selespeed change is a bit quirky but it's a fair trade off compared with everything else. The car is on the market for $32k and has had the oil changed every 5000km's.
Cam
The other worry is that the model gets absolutely rubbished on forums in the UK and around Europe. Why such a difference between the reliability there and here? I assume they all came out of the same factory?
Hi Cam
I agree with the advice given. I took the plunge last year and bought a 2003 JTS sportwagon and absolutely love it. Mine had 89K on the clock and I managed to get it for a fraction under $20k which I reckon was about spot on for the dosh for the yearand Ks on the clock. It is in top condition. I will need to do the belts within the next 10K but at least I will have peace of mind. I definitely agree that non-Alfa people and magazines etc are hard on the 156 but from experience so far, 9 months ownership I have had absolutely no problems.
I hope you enjoy it if you get it. Cheers Dave
hello Alfa Cam,
you probably read my thread about buying an 2003 156 JTS selespeed, which i purchased in march this year. I can tell yo that these newer series 156's were definetly better built compared to the first series ('99 - '01).
Engine wise, JTS is probably one of the best engines in its class (when working properly) and thats manly due to direct fuel injection, which gives it more torque and a flatter power and torque delivery, making it easier for everyday driving (twin spark is a peaky little bugger :)).
Make sure you go for a long test drive before you buy it and pay attention to a few things like:
-motor oil level (some of JTS's like to drink oil like theres no tommorrow, although mine hasn't used a drop since I purchased it)
-engine temperature - if after a long drive the engine temperature still doesn't wanna go higher than 70C when moving, it probably means that thermostat is busted (this is very common on all Alfa's)
-engine seems lacking in power (it feels 'flat') now this can be caused by a few different things when it comes to a JTS engine. The most common one is a stuffed up MAF sensor (MAF is an air-flow sensor located above air filter box - what it does is basicaly sends an information to engine's ECU telling it how much air is passing through so that the ECU can adjust the fuel to air ratio in the engine)
It usually gets dirty over time (I think this is common with 156's because of the terrible design of the air intake which is streched all the way down to the ground- its almost like a vacum cleaner sucking all the crap beneath the car). The symptoms of this are usually feeling like the car has no top end- the power cuts out above 5000 revs or the idle is very bad.
There was also an issue with some early JTS's losing power because of the apparent bad design of the intake camshaft and bad ECU set up which caused some overlap in combustion process leading to carbon build up on the intake valves and thus loss of power (there is a big topic on this on http://forum.alfa156.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37964&PN=1).
But apparently only some of the 156's built before the facelift in 2003 were affected by this, but it still might be a good read for you. Alfa never admited to this, but alot of the alfa specialists and mechanics agree that the problem was caused by the bad factory design.
Ignition coil packs (they sit on top of each spark plug and send electricity down the plug) also tend to die early for some reason- the symptoms are usually misfiring or stuttering when wanting to accelerate fast (this is usualy followed by 'Motor Control Failure' warning on the computer display- with the error code, which is retrieved at alfa dealership through their computer examiner, showing 'misfire on cylinder 1,2,3 or 4')
When it comes to selespeed, you should be ok as the second series (post '02) selespeeds had revised actuator (electro-hydraulic device that actualy moves the clutch and gears) and selespeed pump (creates pressure with selespeed oil for that movement).
But it is very important that you take the car to alfa dealership to have the selespeed calibrated at least once a year (they do it through their computer - using actuator to adjust the clutch, take up points, check pump pressure, etc) and also check the selespeed fluid frequently (this is separate oil to actual gearbox oil) - it has to be on 'high' level to work properly, and only a specific alfa oil is used for it.
Selespeeds have gained a bad reputation in reliabilty becuasue most of the people tend to drive (and buy cheaply) the very first generation of 156's from 1999, when the selespeed system was just introduced for the first time, and a lot of previous owners never realy took care of them - never checking the fluid or calibrating them.
Also becuase the system is very complicated, people used to spend a lot of money on changing the entire actuator units ($3000 on average) where a simple electrical or wiring problem was the cause.
I think that the actual 5 speed gearbox underneath selespeed system (same box as regular manual) can cause more problems than the selespeed system because it has very weak synchros and bearings that don't like to take much abuse (try trashing the crap out of it for a few minutes and the gearbox starts sounding like bucket full of nails). So its also important to change the oil in the actual gearbox aswell.
When it comes to driving selespeed, you definitely have to get used to it, and remember - you cannot drive selespeed like a regular automatic gearbox cause its not. Its an actual standard 5 speed manual box with the clutch thats under control of ECU insted of your left leg, and you have to drive it that way.
I would avoid using the 'city' mode because in my opinion the selespeed ECU is not programmed well enough for different styles of driving and road situations. It has that annoying habit to hold on to first gear for ages, and then awkwardly jerk it to second (in the process making you look like a beginner manual driver >:() and it also likes to quickly go through 3rd and 4th and then gets stuck in 5th, even though you might be going up hill or the revs are low.
Also if you are just crusing in 5th gear in lower revs and you suddenly want to accelerate hard, flooring the gas pedal will only result in dropping down one gear insted of two or even three that the regular 5sp auto would do.
The smoothest way to drive the selespeed is to drive it 'manual' mode and to slightly step of the gas everytime you change up the gear like you would when you drive regualr manual. This is when selespeed becomes fun to drive (even though the change from 1st to 2nd is stil too slow for my liking)
Outside the engine and gearbox, the only other thing you might look out for are worn discs on the brakes. For some reason Alfa 156's and 147's go through them like they're made of sugar as they get worn out realy fast even on low k's examples. Radiators also tend to develop leaks after 4-5 years due to low quality materials used in their build (I'm not sure if this is still the case with the last 156's made)
In your case you shouldn't wory too much because the Alfa is stil relatively new with low kays, but you should probably try and negotaiate the price further down as it does seem to be a bit steep (around $29000 should be closer market value). You will have to replace belts between 45-50k as they have a scary tendency to snap after 50k on JTS's - mine one did on 55k.
I'm sorry for a long write up, I didn't mean to scare you with any of these issues, I simply wanted to summarise every possible issue with this car in one easy to understand post. Alfa purchase is always made by heart, but I can assure you that if you are being smart it shouldn't cost your wallet too much ;)
Thanks Alfa-Chemist for the really helpful heads-up on problems and fixes available for the 156. I reckon that is excellent advice for all us 156 owners, not just Alfa cam. Definitely one of the many good reasons to be on this forum. The message being do your homework on the car you are looking at, and be aware and attend early to any possible problems to reduce the risk of greater costs. Cheers
Wow...Thanks Alfa Chemist. Don't apologise for being really helpful. Now armed with that knowledge I need to make the decision on whether a car that requires more attention and money than you're average car, is what I'm after. With all of these 'potential' problems I'm not so sure...
Thanks for your help though. It's been invaluable
Cam
wow thats really good alfa chemist the brake problem is on mine now. would you suggest to get those after market ones? rather than getting the genuine ones? I also have problem with the cat converter honeycombe rattling and triggeringa sensor to light up the dash saying motor system failure go to dealer. took it in to alfa and they advised me this fault. what would you suggest they 2600 bux to get a new cat please help
hey Romeo156, when it comes to brakes I would always go with the genuine ones, but if you're having cash problems the aftermarket ones will stil do the job. But be warned - a lot of people tend to complain that aftermarket brake discs and pads are very noisy (usualy a 'squeeling' type noise).
When it comes to cat problems - they are usualy caused by the engine running bad - did you have the engine running rich before, like using a lot of fuel, or maybe having stuffed spark plugs or injectors? Anyway, if they are goine you have to replace them - try saving a bit of cash by using an alfa specialist insted of the Alfa dealership.
If you live around Sydney, give ASV a call - 9725 8666 (they are located in Yagoona, near Liverpool) or call Max Oddie - 9552-2054 ( Leichardt)
I fitted non-genuine rotors and pads, front and back about 3 weeks ago and they are fine.
Another mechanic I can recommend for a fair opinion or feedback is Automoda @ Fivedock, guy's name is Vince and his contact number 97447112 his email is vince@automoda.com.au certainly worth a try.
A new member (from Sunday Spettacolo) to AROCA Vic is Gabriel Massa of 'Il Bolide Rosso' in High Street, Thornbury. He is an Alfa Specialist with a Alfa Analyser - 156 et. el. are his speciality.
He will welcome any queries. 03-9484-6534.
Cheers.
Thanks so much for the info here Alfa _Alchemist!!
All the issues you raised with the Sellespeed and coils are the ones I have had with my 05 build 156. Especially the coils. I did 2 in as many weeks and had replaced under warranty as was the Selespeed actuator at about 40k. I agree the discs are very soft but I praise their ability to pull the car up faster than anything else I have driven and saved me from a possible right off after some jerk changed lanes without looking on the F3. I found the dealer occasionally has a special offer comprising of discs and pads combo made up of aftermarket parts (so I was told) - these are cheaper than getting done as part of regular service but you only get the deal if they fit them.
Thanks again
Steve