Just thought I would start a thread on Historic Group S to answer any questions there may be on the subject. I have included a short intro to Group S below. If you have wanted to go racing but haven't had the budget or didn't think there was a category to race your trusty Alfetta GTV or 105 Coupe well Group S could be the answer!!
What is Historic Group S?Historic Group S is a low cost way of being involved in one of the fastest and most exciting forms of motorsport – Historic Racing.
Group S is one of the fastest growing categories of historic motor racing in Australia, with spectacular grids running up to 45 cars. Based on mildly modified production sports cars, Group S is designed to provide a forum for competitors to race cars from the '50s, '60s and '70s in a form similar to period club racing.
And like Group N (Historic Touring Cars) new cars can be built. That is, cars do not have to have a racing history from the period as is required for all other classes of Historic Racing (Group C Touring cars for example).
The cutoff is 1977 meaning the all 105 Coupe's and the Alfetta GT and GTV 2.0L are eligible and importantly all run on model years, meaning that any steel bumpered Alfetta GTV 2.0L built after 1977 (thru to 1981) are also eligible!
At the recent Phillip Island Classic there were five Alfa's competing in the Under 2 L Class with an Alfetta GTV posting the fastest time in the class in qualifying and running in second place over the weekend. Lap times ranged from 2:02 to 2:11 for the Alfa's, the first one home 18th outright in a field of 44 cars. The outright cars lap in around 1:56/57 – not that far in front of the Alfa's.
As the name suggests the class is for Production Sports Cars meaning that the cars are showroom standard with minimal modification (similar to our Super Modified Class). The major modifications allowed are:
- Tyres must be from the Production Tyre list and must be 60% profile.
- Engine Internals are free, carby size is free, exhaust is free
- Shocks and springs/torsion/sway bars are free
The complete rules are contained in the 5th Category/Group Sc section of the CAMS manual.
Cars must adhere to all the normal racing safety reg's including fire extinguisher, roll cage, cutoff switch etc. You also need at minimum a Provisional Circuit Racing Licence (C3) and the usual race suit, boots etc
For more info see the Group S section of the main web site and the Group S forum area.
only $$$ keeping me away!
Scot, if i understand the CAMS manual correctly there are few subgroups in S. Sa, Sb, and Sc. What is significance of that. Are all the cars competing together or is there a real distinctions. I am particularly interested in Sb because 1750 gtveloce falls into that group.
This is quite timely discussion! I am trying to decide what exactly to do with my 1750. If there are enough people in the club particiapting in the S group i may decide to go that way. This also means that I need to be more restrained in any modifications and that i need to retain the 1.8 litre engine.
Scott, Maybe you can clear up something for me, which has stopped me looking into Group S a bit further. My 105 was originally fitted with a 1300, and currently runs a 2Litre. Would I have to run the 1300 motor (per original body) to be eligible ???
Cheers,
Phil Baskett
For some reason GT Junior 1300 is not listed in the Group Sb or Sc. Not sure why is that.
Scott, can you offer an explanation ?
It is my understanding that you need to run the original engine for that model.
Quote from: Branko Turk on June 07, 2006, 05:10:38 PM
Scot, if i understand the CAMS manual correctly there are few subgroups in S. Sa, Sb, and Sc. What is significance of that. Are all the cars competing together or is there a real distinctions. I am particularly interested in Sb because 1750 gtveloce falls into that group.
This is quite timely discussion! I am trying to decide what exactly to do with my 1750. If there are enough people in the club particiapting in the S group i may decide to go that way. This also means that I need to be more restrained in any modifications and that i need to retain the 1.8 litre engine.
Well first of all great to see interest - we are planning to have at least one car at Sandown plus the intersate guys should be there as well.
Sa Sb and Sc refer to the period of manufacture. Sa is 1941 - 60, Sb 61 - 69, Sc 70 to 77 but importantly this includes any "run on" models so Alfetta GTV's thru 81 (metal bumper cars) are eligible. All the cars run together but trophys are awarded for each class. Have a look at the results from Phillip Island - http://www.natsoft.com.au/cgi-bin/results.cgi?12/02/2006.PHIL.R3
If it is a 69 1750 then it is Sb and would need to retain the 1.8. Engine mods do not have to be all that restrained - there will be an article in the next mag detailing what can be done. Basically engine internals are free, carby's free, exhaust free 180 HP + Suspension includes all the usual PACE stuff running on 195/60/14 Yoko AO32's.
Grp S would be a great place for the 1750.
Quote from: Phil Baskett on June 07, 2006, 05:44:51 PM
Scott, Maybe you can clear up something for me, which has stopped me looking into Group S a bit further. My 105 was originally fitted with a 1300, and currently runs a 2Litre. Would I have to run the 1300 motor (per original body) to be eligible ???
Cheers,
Phil Baskett
Hi Phil, I will ask the question - what year/model is it?
Scott
Quote from: Branko Turk on June 07, 2006, 06:31:42 PM
For some reason GT Junior 1300 is not listed in the Group Sb or Sc. Not sure why is that.
Scott, can you offer an explanation ?
It is my understanding that you need to run the original engine for that model.
Doesn't matter that it is not on the list - it would be eligible - the sports car list is an imperfect beast. Cars generally need to be as they were in the day so it probably would need to retain the 1300 however you would be running in the lower capacity class with Midgets etc I would love to see a Giulia 1300 competing.
The photo below is a photo of Paul Newby, a NSW AROCA member, competing at the Phillip Island Classic in Feb this year. A following is a short history of the car lifted from the Group S website.
Car: Alfa Romeo Alfetta GT (Colour - Periwinkle Blue Metallic)
Year1975
Race Number 31
Purchased 1998 ((Fourth owner) as a wreck & built up over two years into race car. (Superspinted in various other Alfas from 1998 onwards). First race was in Alfetta GT in 2000, first Group S Historic race in 2001. Outright and Class (under 2 Litre) Sc Champion in 2002 (beating the Porsches ....). Crashed at Eastern Creek in 2003 & rebuilt over 18 months. Back on track in 2005 & second in class in Sc under 2 Litre. Pic by Darren Hodgson.
Scott is correct. The Group S sub-classes relate to age of vehicle. The main crux of getting eligibility pre-approval (via a chat and an inspection with a certain VSCC/CAMS representative) is the car must be original i.e. the engine is what belonged to the car at time of commercial release. if it ran a 1300 but now has a 2000 now, a 1300 needs to be re-installed. You will then compete against like sized engines.
Group S concentrates on limiting mods to a set of appropriately aged cars - pre 79. The eligible car list in the CAMS manual is really a list of example "marques". Even my SPRINT is eligible in theory. If it is a pre 1979 plated car or "looks like it (i.e. run-on) then it can be entered. But the rules dont stretch so far as to allow a 1987 car into a group that ends @ 1979. so it pays to seek pre-approval from the CAMS/VHRR rep before spendign all that money.
Run-ons allow for stretching of the body eligibilty rules. The GTV is a perfect example. EG Group Sc allows for 1977 - 79 bodied cars. In the case of GTV, the 79 body was still the same in 1981 (before it went to plastic bumpers etc) so theoretically a 1981 GTV is eligible to compete.
And anyway, the bumpers can legitimitaly removed, making the difference only some minor cosmetic trim items.
I Just need the space and the money and i am there. It has been a dream of mine ever since my Dad took me to Historic meeting in the 70's.
Thanks Ed, I thought that might be the case (sourcing and installing a 1300). I too have been harbouring ambitions of taking to the track in a race environment as well as sprinting.....maybe I need to start looking for something like Paul Newby's car that Scott posted above and start from scratch, as the idea of going "back" to a 1300 is not all that appealing!
Great idea Scott, an Alfa Group S Challenge sounds like a lot of fun, particularly if we get the same sort of camaraderie at a Historic meeting that we get at a sprint. Now all I need is the funds to start the Alfetta project.
Anyone want to buy my 105!!
Hey Phil,
Don't sell the 105 before the Mallala 6 hour!! ;D
More seriously, Ateco's General Manager for Alfa Romeo (David Stone) is looking for a 105 1750 race car to run in historic series. Any in Victoria we can offer to him?
Victor
sorry, but he cannot have mine ! ;D
Hi guys,
Just thought I'd chuck in my two bobs worth on Gp S.
As far as eligibility goes, as I understand it, a vehicle has to be accurately REPRESENTATIVE of a model, not actually an absolute original car of that model. I believe that actual chassis type numbers are not an issue.
For example, with a step-nose 1300 you could update to a 1600 engine. Or, with a 1600 Junior and 1750 you could update to a 2000 engine, IF you also change the all the appropriate grilles, lights and other trim details that belong to the model capacity you wish to change to.
So you are not really stuck in no-man's land if you don't actually have the most competative model at hand, although it makes for a lot less mucking around if you do!
While most people think of a 2.0 as an absolute must, there are several 1750s and 1.8s going just as fast (and faster sometimes) as most of the 2.0s.
Paul Newby's 1.8 Alfetta in NSW is one case in point. The engine is bored to 1830cc, 45mm valves, 11.5:1 comp, 45mm webers etc. Makes a good 175 hp and goes about 3 seasons between ring/bearing/valve spring rebuids. The gearbox is one of my hybrid close-ratio mods using a T/S as a base mixed with other model gears. The suspension is all the usual 116 type set-up; bigger torsion bars, springs, swaybar, knuckle-risers etc. All known quantity stuff.
The point is that it competes very successfully against the 2.0 cars, with trophies to prove it.
In QLD Manuel Pena, and in WA Josh Copeland both have the same success running 1750 105s.
These are examples of sensible evolutionary (rather than revolutionary) development in modifications of areas that return positive on-track results against theoretically superior larger cc cars....do not despair, all is not lost if you don't have what you think you need!
Thanks Vin, pretty good value for two bob.
The thing I like about the class is that as Alfa owners we have a lot of options to race in a class where we are COMPETITIVE and without spending an absolute bundle.
I think this is the only class were an Alfa (and an old Alfa at that) can race competitively. I know there is Group N but the eligible cars are limited to 105's (which is good anyway) whereas Group S is open to Alfetta's, 105's and older.
This is an absolute no-brainer.
agree... now, can MALVERN MS sponsor me? where do i sign? ;D
Surely the sale of the Sprint would release more funds than could ever be needed for a Group S car.....I mean its a classic!
Are ANY sedans eligible ? 105 or 116 ?
No sedans are eligible - it is production sports cars so you need only 2 doors. I will put all the rules up on the sire this week.
Scott when are these guys going to get it
4 DOORS = TAXI
2 DOORS = Real RACE CAR
What does a SUZUKI Grand Vitara = please Anthony? Isn't it time you got an Alfa?
what a silly question, it is quite obviously a truck wannabe ! :P
Evan in reply to your quote "Isn't it time you got an Alfa?" I already have one please see extract from Club Register
Year Make Mod Color Reg Cap Eng # Body# Ser Date of purchase
1977 Alfa Romeo GTV Red AHI338 2000 AR01623019669 AR116370002271 116 1982
Member# Name
796 Anthony Sharp
Please note date of purchase 1982 this means I have owned this car as a Junior Member of the club.
As for what SUZUKI Grand Vitara= Flyfishing car. Since the average mug can now manage to get his 4wd with 10" ground clearance into most of the trails that me and my brothers used to take our Alfas with 4" ground clearance, it has become a nessasary evil to have a 4wd to find a quite section of mountain stream to flyfish.
Oh I'm sorry Anthony I didn't finish my sentence "Isn't it time you got an Alfa BACK ON THE ROAD?" :P
Perhaps if Alfa ever build the Kamal?
(http://www.jipemania.com/salao03/ge03/03-alfa-kamal-d.jpg)
Quote from: a sharp on July 13, 2006, 06:37:16 PM
Scott when are these guys going to get it
4 DOORS = TAXI
2 DOORS = Real RACE CAR
Well said!! It is obviously some sort of mental disorder. Wonder if there is medication available.......
Quote from: vin sharp on June 13, 2006, 10:49:23 PM
Hi guys,
Just thought I'd chuck in my two bobs worth on Gp S.
As far as eligibility goes, as I understand it, a vehicle has to be accurately REPRESENTATIVE of a model, not actually an absolute original car of that model. I believe that actual chassis type numbers are not an issue.
For example, with a step-nose 1300 you could update to a 1600 engine. Or, with a 1600 Junior and 1750 you could update to a 2000 engine, IF you also change the all the appropriate grilles, lights and other trim details that belong to the model capacity you wish to change to.
So you are not really stuck in no-man's land if you don't actually have the most competative model at hand, although it makes for a lot less mucking around if you do!
While most people think of a 2.0 as an absolute must, there are several 1750s and 1.8s going just as fast (and faster sometimes) as most of the 2.0s.
Paul Newby's 1.8 Alfetta in NSW is one case in point. The engine is bored to 1830cc, 45mm valves, 11.5:1 comp, 45mm webers etc. Makes a good 175 hp and goes about 3 seasons between ring/bearing/valve spring rebuids. The gearbox is one of my hybrid close-ratio mods using a T/S as a base mixed with other model gears. The suspension is all the usual 116 type set-up; bigger torsion bars, springs, swaybar, knuckle-risers etc. All known quantity stuff.
The point is that it competes very successfully against the 2.0 cars, with trophies to prove it.
In QLD Manuel Pena, and in WA Josh Copeland both have the same success running 1750 105s.
These are examples of sensible evolutionary (rather than revolutionary) development in modifications of areas that return positive on-track results against theoretically superior larger cc cars....do not despair, all is not lost if you don't have what you think you need!
Thanks Vin for the plug. I never saw this the first time I ventured here. But it is all true.
When I started building up my Alfetta GT in 1999/2000 there were a few perplexed faces wondering why I didn't go down the path of coil-over front suspension, Twin Spark engine, fiberglass spoilers and slicks etc. A few contemporaries built up cars like this that are now in no-mans-land category-wise.
Well, I have always been a supporter of historic racing for as long as I've been interested in racing. The chances of me being able to afford and running a pukka historic car were practically none. I had seen how Lancia Sport had a number of competitors in Group S who drove their cars to and from the track. Also Colin Wilson-Brown has been doing the same in his Group S 1750 GTV for years. I believe the first Alfetta was logged in about 1999 and I believe mine was the third or fourth logged.
It seemed the right thing to do in 2000. Its only taken another 5 - 6 years for the majority of you all to catch up .... ::)
We now have 7 cars underway (or almost) and committed to the category in Vic. This is a sensational result and I can see for many years to come a great Vic presence at the major Historic meetings.
Paul makes a good point about obsolescence - every other "modern" category changes, whether it is rules or the cars that are eligible. Historic racing is one where this doesn't happen. The rules for Group Sc will remain the same and the cars that are eligible will too. It means you are building a race car that will remain competitive and you can enjoy for many years and when you are done - you can pass it on to someone else who will also be competitive and enjoy the same racing as you have.
I also can't emphasise enough the camaraderie inn the Historic movement - it very much strikes a great balance between social, competition and the preservation of the cars themselves.