Hi all,
Occasionally I turn the ignition key to start the car when it is hot and the starter doesn't crank the motor at all.
All of the other electrics work when this happens, lights indicators, heater fan etc.
This problem never occurs from a cold start, probably not from a warm start, only when the temperature is at or approaching 90 degrees.
So... is it something to do with the ignition switch, something to do with the electric fan drawing power, or is it the starter solenoid failing when the engine is hot.
Or is it something else that i haven't considered.
I am thinking about buying a new ignition switch (along with new door locks) so that I can eliminate this from the equation.
Any thoughts?
Cheers,
Alan
When I had a 75 TS, there was a connector from the ignition switch wiring in the steering column that I had to reseat every once in a while since it wouldn't start. On the odd occasion it wouldn't idle either. That is, if I kept driving, and foot on the accelerator when stationary, the engine would run, but it would stall if I let it return to idle.
reseating that connector solved the issues. I recall it was white and at least a 6 way connector, possibly bigger.
You could rule out the electric fan just by disconnecting next time it won't start and see if that makes any difference.
Do you have a starter relay? If not, a very good idea. It may fix the problem and extend the life of your ignition switch. I'm sure you probably already know how to, but just in case; take the solenoid wire (spade terminal) and use that as the feed to a relay. Take power from the drivers side junction point and earth from the main point on the front of the drivers side of the engine bay. Then run a decent wire down to the starter solenoid from the relay.
While you are there, if you haven't already, run a much bigger wire from the starter (+12V from battery) to the junction box mentioned above. That should solve any starting problems unless your ignition switch is completely stuffed.
Or, as pasey25 said, it could just be a poor connection somewhere. That could take ages to find but the new relay should only be 30 mins and will be worth it even if it is not the main culprit here.
The relay seems to regularly come up in conversations about electrical gremlins as do dodgy connectors. I will discuss these things with my Alfa workshop when I'm getting some other stuff done.
I had another thought about my problem... Next time the car won't start, can I use a voltage tester on the power wire on the starter motor (solenoid ?) to see if it's getting power? If its not, does that confirm that it's a faulty switch?
I want to try to work this out so I that my workshop has a better than 50 per cent chance of fixing it first time.
Cheers,
Al
Following up on previous posts... reconditioned starter fitted.
It's a lot quieter than the old one, and cranks noticeably faster – one way or the other the old starter was probably pretty knackered.
Al.
:(
Still got the starting problem, happened again after driving in heavy traffic.
Unfortunately I was on my way to the airport...
New ignition switch I think so that it can be ruled out as a cause.
Al
Alan,
Did you check those four relays on the top left hand side of the engine bay, one of them (I think is related ie fuel pump).
Pull them all out and clean the contacts. Doesn't hurt to clean them anyway if not solve issue. Had similar situation, drove 150kms to PI, stopped to fuel up, got back in, no start. Pulled relays and put back in, started again. But this may not be your case, but anyway.
Also install a starter relay, I also installed a momentary bypass from terminal 30 onto terminal 85/86 (depending which is earth) as emergency.
Thanks Neil, I pulled out the relays and the terminals were filthy.
Cleaning them was quite therapeutic... I am sure I have done some good, related or not to my starting problem!
My knowledge of the electrical system is pretty average ::) so I can't follow your instructions re the relay.
I will talk to Bruno about it tho.
Pic of car just because I like it so much (despite gremlin).
Cheers,
Al.
Whilst a good idea to clean the relay contacts, they won't be your problem if the starter motor isn't turning at all. The can easily stop your car from starting but it should still turn over when the starter is applied. The starter motor wiring is very simple on the 75. See the attached but basically you have +12V coming direct off the battery (R4) and and black wire (N1) coming direct from the ignition switch. There are only three things that can fail; the ignition switch, the starter motor or the wiring between them.
Replacing your ignition switch may very well fix the problem but it will eventually fail again unless you relay the starter. It's a very simple job. Take the black wire off the starter and connect it to terminal 85 on a standard relay. Run a new wire from terminal 87 to the starter solenoid (where the black used to be connected). Then run a new wire from the terminal block on the drivers inner fender and to terminal 30 on the relay and a new wire from terminal 86 to any convenient earth point nearby (most likely the row of earths just behind the drivers side headlight.
This may actually save you from having to buy a new ignition switch and will cost peanuts compared to a new switch and will be easier than installing a switch. If for some reason you ever decide to return to original (no idea why you would) its as simple as taking the black wire from the relay back to the starter solenoid and removing the relay with its three new wires.
alanm,
Advice from GTVeloce is 100% gold and correct. Install solenoid relay before you do anything else. All cars should have one from the start.
GTV, thanks for your detailed instructions regarding the addition of a relay - the only problem is you are dealing with a graphic designer... Only good for making things look pretty :P
I will have a go at following instructions but I am going have to start by asking a really dumb question. How do I identify the terminals 85, 87 etc?
Cheers,
Al
Google is your friend.
The first one is really helpful and explains it well.
I can help you next time we meet up at Bruno's. Bring a relay and a bunch of wires and spade bits.
Neil has pretty much covered it except the numbers are usually stamped onto the bottom of the relay, right next to each male spade terminal. Pull one of the silver ones from the four starting sequence relays and have a look. I'm fairly certain you will see the numbers on the bottom.
Awesome, thanks guys!
I pulled out one of the bank of 4 relays on the passenger side of the engine compartment and had a look at lunch time. Yes, the numbers are stamped into the base of the relay next to the terminals.
Neil, I will have a crack at this on the weekend (thanks for your offer of help).
You can survey my work at Broadford!
My understanding of your collective instructions – tell me if I've got this right :)
alanm,
Nice try but your circuit is a foul up.(of sorts).
I don't want to be part of the "too many cooks" syndrome so I will just suggest you take Neil's offer and let him help you wire the relay in.
Some pointers to your misunderstanding :
1 The heavy current carrying wire from the relay does not go to the starter motor. It goes to the solenoid. The intention of the relay is not to replace the solenoid but to help it work. Additionally, this connection from the relay needs to go to the positive terminal on the solenoid and not the negative terminal as shown because this would create a dead short. So two foul up in just one connection. :)
2 You show two T86 connections. There is only one on the relay.
Clearly you need some practical help which has been offered. There is no shame in accepting it. It's what the Alfa mateship is proud of.
I hear what you are saying about getting help MD, but I at least want the satisfaction of getting the diagram (and my understanding) right. If I follow your corrections the diagram below should be right...
Cheers,
Al
Yes.
I like your spirit of never say die.. :)
I make this qualification.
Your T30 B+ connection will come from the present connection on your starter motor.(Closest and largest power cable in the entire car).
The connection from here should have a 30amp inline fuse in it before you connect it to the relay.
This is to prevent a fire if your T30 connection accidentally made contact to chassis ground.
I would still recommend that you should do the job and have the parts ready but have Neil oversee your work if that is fine all round.
Thanks MD, I like the way you have taken the batten and run with it.
You, GTVoloce, and Neil have handled this like... well, like a relay. ;D
Latest diagram – this has got to be a winner!
Al
Alan, as a graphics designer you are terrible. Your latest diagram 4 looks like Italian spaghetti.
Go back a step to your previous diagram 3 (your latest 4 is incorrect) and just add a 30 amp fuse before terminal 30.
The -ve on the starter will be connected to an earth which is missing in the diagram 3.
So this is what happens, your trigger (ignition key) sends power to terminal 85 and powers the coil, the circuit is completed by terminal 86 which is earthed.
When the 85-86 coil is powered, it triggers a switch to complete the circuit from 30 to 87 which powers the starter, the starter circuit is completed by the -ve terminal on the starter which is connected to earth.
I am sure you know this.
In the TS, do you need to remove the plenum to get at the starter wiring, or can you get your hands in. Probably easier to remove the plenum so you can see all the wiring.
Sometimes I follow threads on this forum and I think – clearly this guy has no expertise in fixing his car, he might do more harm than good.
I have just realised that when it comes to electrics, I am one of those guys ::)
I am going to swallow my pride and surrender (possibly saving you guys more frustration at the same time).
Today I tried to make the cars ignition fail and it wouldn't do it. Maybe cleaning the relay terminals and tightening a few power and earth connections solved the problem... maybe.
I have gone ahead and ordered a new ignition switch and lock set from OKP.
Would I spend 109 Euros for a part to fix this problem? Yes, in a heartbeat.
When I get MPS to fit it, I will get them to wire in the relay as well.
Neil, to answer your question about access to the starter, yes the plenum/intake manifold does get in the way. I am thinking that someone with a hoist might work from under the car to wire the starter.
Thanks for your efforts everyone, the Alfa community is fantastic!
Cheers, Al
No need to remove the plenum completely. If you remove the top of the air box, the black concertina hose and the AFM there is easily enough room to get hands down and onto the starter motor. Removing and replacing the plenum is much trickier and there is always the danger of damaging one of the intake rubbers when putting it back on. This method would be easier than from underneath (hoist).
Oh, but make sure you disconnect the battery before you do any work near the starter.
Just thought I would follow up on some old posts...
New ignition switch solved the starting problem, I am still intending to get a relay installed.
Door locks are surprisingly easy to fit, no idea where to start with the fuel cap lock, need to start researching that...
Cheers,
Alan.
Another follow up...
I was wrong, the new ignition switch did NOT solve the problem (or it did temporarily).
While I was waiting for the right opportunity to take the car to my repairer to install a relay I figured there was no harm in replacing the wire that runs between the starter motor and the terminal block on the inner wing. The factory wire was quite thin, the insulation hard/brittle at both ends and the terminals dirty. I had a new cable made up out of 4 gauge (about 10mm including the insulation), installed it and haven't had the problem since – months ago. ;D
Funny thing is, when I read back over the posts in this thread, GTVeloce actually suggested the exact same thing on day 1 (or close to) :P
He also said 'it's either the starter, the ignition switch, or the WIRES IN BETWEEN!
GTVeloce – hats off to you. Thanks also to the other guys, also aware that the wires in between cause problems too. The relay of course would have solved the problem as well. I know now to make sure the wires are good before doing anything else.
Learning is this – if you have a 75, and it probably doesn't matter V6 or Twinny, change this wire and potentially save a lot of frustration!
While you are at replace the factory battery terminals if they are still there and replace the earth and power wires attached to it.
Shiny talks a lot about this sort of thing in his awesome 75 restoration thread.
Cheers,
Al