Right, this (hopefully) may be an easy one - my 2.0 GTV was serviced and tuned about a fortnight ago, and has been running fine. Right up until I refuelled yesterday. Was still fine on the 5 min trip home, but after sitting for about 30mins, when I went back out, it started coughing, crackling, popping, spluttering, and juddering under load after about a minute on the road. I crawled back home (luckily just around the corner) and left it to look at this morning.
This morning, I started her up, and while a bit lumpy while cold, took her out for a short run round the block. Not perfectly smooth, but almost back to normal (I won't get a chance to run her long enough to get properly warmed up til later today). Main difference now seems to be a bit more blipping on downshift/coasting than usual.
So I am thinking maybe a dirty fuel issue? It certainly felt like a fuel starvation problem, though I guess it could be ignition/electrical related. I note that the points, leads, plugs and condenser were all changed when I had it serviced.
Sounds like it... Perhaps crud in the tank or lines that has shaken free from use and is now in the system.
Change/clean the filters don't forget to clean the fine mesh ones in the carbs and blow out the jets. This happened to my Duetto after the first full tank of fuel that I'd used.
Cheers Craig, that was my suspicion. I let the tank get reasonably low before refuelling, so it's possible that I may have stirred up 35 years of muck.
check your distributor rotor arm or cap hasn't cracked
Actually all fine now. Choke cable was stuck in the out position (even though it was "in" at the dash). She's been running sweet as a nut since I corrected that.
Spoke too soon. Have had a recurrence of the problem, and the diagnosis is the distributor is at fault, and screwing up the timing.
It has been suggested that I replace the mechanical points with electronic ignition conversion kit.
Anyone had good/bad experiences with the Hot Spark conversion kit?
ive read online that most people use the later Bosch system found in the late alfettas
Mine does have a Bosch distributor - not sure what the difference might be with later models?
I do like the idea of doing away with mechanical points, given the car is no longer all-original anyway and the kit is not overly expensive.
Similarly, look into Pertronix Ignitor, same I think.
For more $$, 123Ignition electronic distributor with different switchable curves but you will probably only use one or two. It is programmable I think.
Thanks Neil. I think the 123 distributor is the ideal solution, but it is also the priciest by far (~$500). Maybe a false economy going for the conversion kit, only time will tell.
I have heard mixed reports about the Pertronix kit, but I imagine it is by and large pretty similar to Hot Spark. Anyway, I've gone ahead and ordered a Hot Spark, will see how it goes once its in.
The later Bosch dizzy was electronic and used a hall-effect sensor rather than points. Both my 83 GTV's came with them.
Well now I am completely stumped.
I have now had the mechanical points replaced with electronic conversion kit, I have replaced the dizzy cap, rotor arm, HT leads, plugs and ignition coil.
And none of it has made any difference. The car is fine for about 5 mins, but then starts to stutter/misfire and get steadily worse til it is no longer driveable.
Buggered if I know where else to look now - the advice so far has been that it definitely seems electrical.
Check your battery and alternator for good strong electrons?
Can you get another dizzy that you know is working and put it in to try?
Fuel pump inefficiency?
Battery and alternator seem ok, there is certainly no problem starting the motr, even on really cold mornings after not running for a few days.
Unfortunately I don't have another dizzy on hand to try.
One thing I did notice was that the plug on No4 cyclinder was black, as per carbon fouling. Rest of them all looked relatively good. Workshop manual says carbon fouling (lucky has a picture which matches appearance of No4 plug) can be that mixture is over rich.
Have also seen on alfabb a suggestion that it could be dud wires - and suggests running engine in dim light to see if any sparks from cracks or pinholes. Poor earth connections also suggested. Is getting dark now - will see if I can get illumination.
If I can't crack it this time, I'm just about ready to surrender and get it trucked to the Alfa workshop. I have been avoiding it as I don't like paying +$150 for nothing but a slow ride... (alfa workshop is 30km away)
Also had the fuel pump replaced only a month ago, so I would hope that's not the culprit.
Try a set of new plugs? BP7ES. A new set of plugs does wonders.
I changed the plugs earlier today, straight after I changed the HT leads. Made no difference. It was when I changed them that I noticed No4 plug was black. I should add that the plugs were actually only changed a month before today as well - I changed em today on the off chance one of the new ones put in then was a dud. I also checked the gaps and made sure they were all 0.025 inch as per the manual.
And I just did the "darkness" check - no signs of sparking.
It's so bloody frustrating - I'm sure it is something relatively simple, if only I can find what the damn thing is!
OK so it seems you have it narrowed to one cylinder.
Go back to basics.
Fuel: As the Fetta has one throat per cyl it could be carby
Air: Is that cylinder sucking air downstream of the carbs?
Spark: You seem to have eliminated that (but could be a sucker punch...)
Compression: Test
Check valve clearances to at least eliminate that.
Another aimless guess, coil?
Cheers guys. I put in a new coil first thing today. I am suspicious that it might be the carbies. The previous owner fitted Weber 45s (himself) and to be honest, all the evidence to date suggests the quality of his mechanical work hasn't been great.
Sounds like a tuning issue if you have eliminated electrical issues get the carbs balanced and tuned by a pro. FYI the 2 litre nord engine originally is fitted with 40mm dellorto not 45mm
Yep, I am actually thinking about swapping back to 40s. The 45s are too big with standard cams.
Its a bit of pain though - I only had them tuned and balanced last month by an Alfa specialist. Then this darn problem emerged two weeks later.
Go back to 40mm if Alfa thought the engine needed 45 they would put me on..other place to check is your distributor maybe something else in it is faulty
It sounds to me by what you've described that the problem may be a sticking needle & seat valve in the carby. If they stick open the carburettor floods. So the engine runs OK for a few minutes but because the valve doesn't seal properly the float level slowly climbs till flooding occurs as you've described it may only be one carburettor so it is only affecting 2x cylinders.
Cheers Mick.
Or I could be wrong, it's just a guess as it doesn't seem to have been covered yet.
Also - I agree with what others and yourself have said, 45mm is too big for standard cams, much better off with 40mm.
I have a set of 40mm dell ortos in Perth if you are interested. Actually two pairs and both came from Alfettas. They have sat for a while now so will need a refresh before you could stick them in.
the question really is
Is it a standard engine? what cams does it have ?and has it had head work?
you might sitting on a little goldmine I think once again Choderboy is on the money
I would start with a kit through the carbs needle and seats to start with if it sat around it could be sticking
can you post a photo of the carb tops with the numbers or just the codes as in DHLA????? and xxxxx.xx on both
and if you dont want to service them or cant find a local ill look at them for you
its one of 2 things I do alright so the wife tells me
Cheers all, for the input and advice.
I am also still not 100% convinced the current problem is not electrical - the fact it only happens once the car is warmed up to operating temperature makes me suspect a dodgy connection somewhere. My missus had a Fiat 85S Regata (electronic ignition) in the 90s that did something similar, and after spending plenty of moolah on random things that ultimately proved not to be the cause, it was finally tracked down to a corroded electrode in the ignition module - once it heated up it would expand and separate. Cost about $3 to replace...
So I am resigned to trucking the car back to the workshop to have it sorted out by the experts - whether it be electrical or carby-related. GTVeloce, I may be in touch about those Dellortos! (Or feel free to PM me with what you reckon you would take for them)
What I have quietly been toying with is asking the guys at the workshop (if they have a set of Dellortos or Weber 40s on hand) whether they would be interested in doing a straight swap - my 45s for their 40s - and only hitting me for the labour and any ancillary parts that might be needed.
Carlo, in answer to your question it is a stock 2.0L, with the standard cams, which is why the oversized 45s are problematic.
Check all vacuum hoses for good measure maybe they split with heat and check the earth points on the car any fuses blown in the fuse box ? Worth checking and making sure all contacts are clean
could you send the numbers anyway i like 45s
but pull the covers off and clean them out and see if the needle is sticking
and tell me if its 1.75 or a 2.0 needle and seat
dont know why they would put 45s on because the ports are only 40mm
its a real bad miss match square peg in a round hole
thats why i was wondering about the port has it been enlarged to match
if so re consider 40's
also if it works well in cold and then fumbles when it heats up check that your chokes are not leaking its too rich send me the jettings
main, emulsion and idle numbers
You'll be ripping yourself off doing a straight swap of 45s for 40s! 45s are of interest to a wider audience than Alfa crowd only.
Cheers Beatle - good point! Maybe I will source some 40s, then sell the 45s.
If it were me, I'd get some 40s to get it running, keep the 45s and source a worked head and cams or a stock one and do it yourself - sounds like fun kinda. I have a book that gels you how to do it by Jim kartamalakis. Or if you're desperate to get rid of the 45s I have a set of 40 dellortos fully rebuilt I'd be keen to swap/sell.
ok Ill bite
how much for the 45's have 40 dellortos as well
but first can you ring the #%$^& that sold it to you and ask its history
you just dont throw 45's on there has to be more to it can you send photo of the setup
carbs is one of the last options not the first
Thanks all. I'll let you know how it pans out. Carlo, I will take a pic tomorrow.
For you Carlo. Carbs in situ: Tipo DCOE 13, No.4C
assuming the number before DCOE is 45 these pre pollution WEBERs are quite sort after 45's
removing the gold cover unscrew the jet stack and tell me the numbers on the bottom jet(1??) the tube (f?) and by pulling the thread of the top what is that jet number also give them a good blow out if the little hidden jet ( air corrector ) is block ed it will be easy to start but a pig after that .
it could have the wrong jetting these were original equipment on a number of cars ie lotus and maserati had these numbers
what is the manifold made of black rubber or aluminium?
Thanks Carlo for the info and advice on the jets. I will have a look inside the cover. Yes, the full number was Tipo 45 DCOE 13 No.4C
Poking around yesterday I found one of the vacuum hoses had disconnected itself, and a second appeared loose so I clamped them. But even after that, it sounds like the the left hand carby (as shown in pic - is it number 1 or number 2?) seems to be making a put-put noise, which I presume is a vacuum leak somewhere. So it's still a conundrum.
And just to add to the fun, the water pump appears to have sprung a leak overnight - spotted some dirty droplet marks on the shiny brand new coil. So after a bit of poking around, spotted tiny drops being spat out from the vicinity of the pump. So looks like that will need replacing too.
As Carlo asked, are the mounts (between carb and manifold) rubber or metal? If they're rubber these can often crack (or even lose their gasket seal) and let air in and mess up the mixtures and run like a pig. To test, while running spray wd40 (there is prob a better method with controlled fuel spray but we works) or similar on these rubber mounts - if the idle/revs change there is a leak. This is easily fixed if the case (was the first "maintenance job" I did when I first got my gtv 2 yrs ago). Not sure if it explains the change after getting hot but the put put you describe sounds like a leak. Mine had pod air filters and the carb mount (long steel arm below carb) was not attached properly and the bush was flogged where it joins the block. Essentially the soft rubber mounts were supporting the whole weight of the carbs. Just some "cool mods" I've come across that were shite (or done shitely in my case).
Hi poobah
When finding these leaks I like to use ether in little squirts if the motor revs you found it
popping generally means too rich
if its using the rubber manifold rubbers ( it shouldnt with 45's) they are probably cracked
I ll go into the data base, if it has the right manifold for the jetting although I would think Neil Choi , choderboy
or one of these guys would have it tattooed somewhere
the other thing we need to find out is what size chokes you will need a mirror to look down the carb and a torch
Oh sorry there you have it, Damo to the rescue
you took the words from right under my fingers
ps Damo have up date on jetting
Carlo, went back to the bigger idles and did a 0.4 sec then 0.7pb at lakeside (rebuilt brakes and ferodo pads assisted in the 2nd case). Cheers again for the tips.
Cheers Carlo and Damo. I'll have a look at the chokes and manifolds etc, but it will probably have to wait til next weekend.
Its exciting stuff and we wait in anticipation for the next chapter of .....da da daaahh ....The alfa that will not go.
stay tuned same bat channel
ps Dhdamo im using 60 idles and 152 mains
have you dyno ed the beast
cheers guys
Huzzah. Problem solved.
Got the car into the workshop this morning. After a few minutes confirming it was nothing electrical, a quick spin round the block with the mechanic confirmed it was a fuel blockage somewhere.
He pulled the fuel lines, fuel filter and the top off both carbies, and my gawd, what a mess.
Seems the previous dodgy owner had removed the fuel filter, so the fuel inlets and filters in both carbies were completely caked in brown poop from the tank.
New fuel pressure regulator and filter fitted, and the carbies (floats, jets, inlets and filters) cleaned and she's running beautifully again. Should have trusted my original suspicion that it was linked to me filling the tank after running it almost to empty. That must have stirred up the 35 years of sludge in the tank and eventually starved the engine.
In hindsight, it is amazing it managed to even start, let alone run for even a few minutes, given the amount of crapola clogging the inlets: they looked like they had been left sitting in the bottom of a river bed.
So all good for now - when I get a chance I will have to drop the tank and flush it and the fuel lines properly to remove the root cause.
But thanks all for your input - I've learned a lot over the last couple of weeks.
Carlo and Damo, to follow up on your queries: the number on the bottom jet is 160 and the carby mount is rubber. I gather the correct jet number should be 144 and the mount for 45s should be aluminium. But plenty of time to get the optimum carby/engine set up down the track.
For now, I'm back in love with my GTV again.
PS - I have gone back and re-read the very first reply I got when I initially posted this problem. Craig_m67 - you win the prize: You were absolutely bang on with your diagnosis and suggestion. Somehow I got distracted along the way and forgot to follow up the first suggested remedy that would have saved me a whole lot of angst!
No matter, at least I now have a completely refurbished ignition set-up, which I would have put in at some stage anyway.
Sounds like a happy ending! Always good when you learn along the way
well done poohbah thats a cheap result
I'm still confused that it has 45's operating on 40mm manifolds
or are they special 45 rubbers?
and if so with that jetting i dont think its a stock motor
well done maybe victory will be yours
Cheers Carlo, I really appreciate your input over the last few days.
Who knows what I will learn about this little beauty over the journey. But regardless, what a glorious noise she makes now she's running sweetly again!
yes injection maybe the future but give me a snarly carburetor any day.
electrics might be great but want a car that involves all my senses
an alfa, a real alfa, a gtv, or a new Giulia with fuel injection and electric everything