Anyone out there tried to run e85 on their carby car?
I am looking at running e85 to help with detonation on a dellorto blow through turbo.
Any input would be appreciated.
Cheers
George
Me thinks you'll want to get the carby bodies, especially the float bowls, hard anodised.
Quote from: Duk on February 06, 2015, 03:57:58 PM
Me thinks you'll want to get the carby bodies, especially the float bowls, hard anodised.
It's for racing only so I'd be prepared to flush the system with unleaded fuel after each event.
So the e85 would only be used over a 24 to 48 hour period.
Just checking to see if someone has tried this on carbies.
Then it comes down to tuning to compensate for the lower energy density of E85.
As a precaution I have immersed a carby in e85 to see what happens over the next couple of weeks.
Quote from: brook308 on February 08, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
As a precaution I have immersed a carby in e85 to see what happens over the next couple of weeks.
I was just thinking (dangerous, I know........... :o )...................
Fully immersed, there probably won't be much oxidation of the carby body. I'm thinking that it would be the small passages that have fuel flowing thru them when the engine is running. When that fuel flow stops, the passages will still be wet with fuel, but now air will get in there and potentially start the oxidation process. If that's the case, it'll be the oxidation in the passages that may block a passage or flow with the fuel to go and block a jet or an emulsion tube.
Perhaps a simple dunk and allow to air dry, would be more telling than simply plonking it in some E85 for a couple of weeks???
Quote from: Duk on February 08, 2015, 10:11:19 PM
Quote from: brook308 on February 08, 2015, 08:43:14 PM
As a precaution I have immersed a carby in e85 to see what happens over the next couple of weeks.
I was just thinking (dangerous, I know........... :o )...................
Fully immersed, there probably won't be much oxidation of the carby body. I'm thinking that it would be the small passages that have fuel flowing thru them when the engine is running. When that fuel flow stops, the passages will still be wet with fuel, but now air will get in there and potentially start the oxidation process. If that's the case, it'll be the oxidation in the passages that may block a passage or flow with the fuel to go and block a jet or an emulsion tube.
Perhaps a simple dunk and allow to air dry, would be more telling than simply plonking it in some E85 for a couple of weeks???
Good thinking, I'll also just fill a carby with e85 an then let it sit to emulate a sitting car.
This would not be typical if I drain and run bp98 after each meeting. Only problem would be having to change jetting to get the car to run on bp98 each time.
I had a look at my experiment today, no damage so far, plastic floats ok, plastic inlet filter ok, nothing has started to dissolve yet.
Drilled out some spare jets in preparation for e85.
Mains were 160 now 200, with 230 air correction
Idles were 55 now 60
Pumps were 35 now 40
Will test with wide and a/f meter and see how the sizes go.
So my carby soaking in e85 for a week showed no ill effects, all parts ok.
Tested the float level of e85 vs bp98, the float was about 1mm higher in e85 so not a big difference.
Started and ran the car on the above jet sizes, now I just need a dyno session to get the mixtures right.
The car free revs well with the up sized jetting.
All my fuel hoses are relatively new, so is the fuel pump and my tank has also been cleaned when I foam filled it so there shouldn't be too many years of petrol contaminates in the system. As a precaution I ran 5 litres though the system via an electric pump for about 20 minutes before starting the engine.
Really if you own an Alfa WHY?
sell the car if cant afford the fuel
otherwise the ethanol will chew up all things rubber
as I have been advised
Quote from: carlo rossi on February 15, 2015, 02:55:13 PM
Really if you own an Alfa WHY?
BOOST!
Charge cooling and knock resistance. Should work. Hard to know which "rubber" parts are made out of what exact polymer (they are unlikely to be natural rubber) to know what resistance to ethanol actually is... Interesting experiment - we need to know... FWIW, for an "accelerated" test you could try heating - what could possibly go wrong?! ;)
Quote from: carlo rossi on February 15, 2015, 02:55:13 PM
Really if you own an Alfa WHY?
sell the car if cant afford the fuel
otherwise the ethanol will chew up all things rubber
as I have been advised
Looking for feedback from people with experience not opinions.
Read the 1st post, this is not about saving a few bucks on fuel.
Quote from: Darryl on February 15, 2015, 03:44:35 PM
Quote from: carlo rossi on February 15, 2015, 02:55:13 PM
Really if you own an Alfa WHY?
BOOST!
Charge cooling and knock resistance. Should work. Hard to know which "rubber" parts are made out of what exact polymer (they are unlikely to be natural rubber) to know what resistance to ethanol actually is... Interesting experiment - we need to know... FWIW, for an "accelerated" test you could try heating - what could possibly go wrong?! ;)
Cheers Darryl,
Did some tuning today, with my original jet estimates,I was off the mark.
With 200 mains, 230 AC and 65 idles the A/F was too lean, low rpm was 14:1 high rpm was 16.5:1.
Ended up with 245 mains, 230 AC and 75 idles, low rpm is 12:1, high rpm is 13:1.
Testing was done free reving and some paddock runs, need a dyno session or track now to make sure all is ok.
I was surprised how much the jets had to be opened up to get to 12:1 with E85.
Also when I had the float chamber open the rubber gasket I have had swelled with the e85.
The rubber float chamber gasket is unique to force fed dellortos, usually this is a fibre gasket.
So on a stock carby gasket kit the e85 should be ok in the short term at least.
I have flushed the e85 with bp98 in till I get a chance to test again.
So to summarise I have increased the idle jets from 55 to 75, a 37% increase
Main jets from 160 to 245, a 54% increase, these increases didn't quite match those I had researched.
I haven't been able to find any dellorto DHLA e85 conversion info, only Holley etc.
Don't really care to much for economy, just want 12:1 or there abouts through the rev range and some more detonation protection. Also cooler running on E85.
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Jet numbers are the hole diameter, aren't they???
If so, when crunching numbers for jet sizes, you should be working on the hole's cross sectional area rather than their diameter.
Your idle jet is now 1.859 times larger.
Your main jet is now 2.345 times larger.
Quote from: Duk on February 15, 2015, 09:16:55 PM
Jet numbers are the hole diameter, aren't they???
If so, when crunching numbers for jet sizes, you should be working on the hole's cross sectional area rather than their diameter.
Your idle jet is now 1.859 times larger.
Your main jet is now 2.345 times larger.
Yep, jet sizes are diameters, so that's correct the percentage increase is much greater when you calculate the jet area.
Don't worry it surprised me, my 1st set of jets were supposed to be 40% larger in area but they ran way too lean.
I was starting to think that it would be impossible to jet the dellorto's to provide enough e85 to get to 12:1.
But unless my Innovate Wideband sensor is telling fibs I have to drill the jets out that much to get close. Even at these sizes as the RPM increases the mixture gets leaner but at worst it's 13:1.
The car runs 50/50 water methanol injection on boost so this should bring the 13:1 down to 12:1 hopefully at high revs and boost.
I think a problem you might run into is that E85 is not consistently 85% ethanol, it moves around a bit depending on time of year - this will knock your jetting around. Of course, not a problem on a wideband equipped injected car.
Quote from: brook308 on February 15, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
I was surprised how much the jets had to be opened up to get to 12:1 with E85.
Also when I had the float chamber open the rubber gasket I have had swelled with the e85.
The rubber float chamber gasket is unique to force fed dellortos, usually this is a fibre gasket.
So on a stock carby gasket kit the e85 should be ok in the short term at least.
So to summarise I have increased the idle jets from 55 to 75, a 37% increase
Main jets from 160 to 245, a 54% increase, these increases didn't quite match those I had researched.
I haven't been able to find any dellorto DHLA e85 conversion info, only Holley etc.
Interesting results. Given the vagaries of turbo blow through jetting it's not too much of a shock that it didn't accord with "theory" - but that is massive! Re the gasket - half expected I suppose. I wonder what will happen to the accel pumps... For the simple gaskets getting something cut from EPDM should be ok?
Quote from: LaStregaNera on February 16, 2015, 02:22:44 PM
I think a problem you might run into is that E85 is not consistently 85% ethanol, it moves around a bit depending on time of year - this will knock your jetting around. Of course, not a problem on a wideband equipped injected car.
From my research United e85 has been found to be 85%, other suppliers may vary their content.
A question for the fuel suppliers I guess. I have heard that there can be a winter and summer mix to improve cold starting by reducing the ethanol content to say 70%. Not sure if this is required in our Qld climate.
Quote from: Darryl on February 16, 2015, 06:12:12 PM
Quote from: brook308 on February 15, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
I was surprised how much the jets had to be opened up to get to 12:1 with E85.
Also when I had the float chamber open the rubber gasket I have had swelled with the e85.
The rubber float chamber gasket is unique to force fed dellortos, usually this is a fibre gasket.
So on a stock carby gasket kit the e85 should be ok in the short term at least.
So to summarise I have increased the idle jets from 55 to 75, a 37% increase
Main jets from 160 to 245, a 54% increase, these increases didn't quite match those I had researched.
I haven't been able to find any dellorto DHLA e85 conversion info, only Holley etc.
Interesting results. Given the vagaries of turbo blow through jetting it's not too much of a shock that it didn't accord with "theory" - but that is massive! Re the gasket - half expected I suppose. I wonder what will happen to the accel pumps... For the simple gaskets getting something cut from EPDM should be ok?
When I did my ethanol submersion test I used the old turbo carby gaskets. These showed no side effects.
The new rubber gaskets did swell and I haven't checked the accel pump diaphragm.
Given that I plan to flush with bp98 I won't do too much more testing of carby materials.
Next test is either a dyno or track. The ultimate test is at the track, if e85 saves my motor from detonation damage then it's passed.
Sorry must apologise about my earlier post did not realise it was for a full blown race car
but I believe that certain rubbers will decompose as will other light alloy components
also even thou alcohol does raise the RON it is also 30% less energy per gram
and for Strega Nera I thought e85 is 15% alcohol 85% petroleum ( ron of 95)
have you tried 95 with 10% alcohol this gives a theoretical ron of 104
I prefer 95 as it has the highest calorific value.
better start base.
Quote from: carlo rossi on February 18, 2015, 03:39:04 PM
Sorry must apologise about my earlier post did not realise it was for a full blown race car
but I believe that certain rubbers will decompose as will other light alloy components
also even thou alcohol does raise the RON it is also 30% less energy per gram
and for Strega Nera I thought e85 is 15% alcohol 85% petroleum ( ron of 95)
have you tried 95 with 10% alcohol this gives a theoretical ron of 104
I prefer 95 as it has the highest calorific value.
better start base.
The number represents the percentage of Ethanol fuel. The rest makes up a conventional petrol (probably just pissy 91-92RON).
the number is the *nominal* amount of ethanol - E85 has been found to vary between somewhere around 60% eth and 80% eth.
Quote from: LaStregaNera on February 19, 2015, 12:37:52 PM
the number is the *nominal* amount of ethanol - E85 has been found to vary between somewhere around 60% eth and 80% eth.
Have a watch of the MCM episode where they convert a turbo subaru wagon to E85.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuCUf2Qrzhs
At the 13 min mark the fuel flex sensor reads 79% Ethanol from United E85.
In reality, given the variables of using ethanol fuel, it's only really a decent computer that has a 'flex-fuel' feedback that can safely take advantage of the actual ethanol content.
http://zeitronix.com/Products/ECA/ECA2.shtml
Quote from: brook308 on February 19, 2015, 06:23:37 PM
At the 13 min mark the fuel flex sensor reads 79% Ethanol from United E85.
For that tank full.
So really its pumping 40% plus extra fuel in ( 30% less energy) and the extra advance (2deg) is where the power is being picked up !
if e85 has a ron of 105 wouldn't avgas at 120'ron and more advance say another (2 deg) about 14-15 deg be even better
injection is so much easier as he adjusted the timing, the fuel, the knock all from a lap top
very cool
Quote from: carlo rossi on February 20, 2015, 05:39:31 PM
So really its pumping 40% plus extra fuel in ( 30% less energy) and the extra advance (2deg) is where the power is being picked up !
if e85 has a ron of 105 wouldn't avgas at 120'ron and more advance say another (2 deg) about 14-15 deg be even better
injection is so much easier as he adjusted the timing, the fuel, the knock all from a lap top
very cool
AVGAS or BP100 is expensive and hard to get hold of, I was getting AVGAS from the local aero club but had to make an appointment and a 2hr round trip. From memory AVGAS was about $2.50 a litre.
E85 is available at Coolum or Doonan United, both about 15 minutes away for $1.15 a litre.
I also like the e85 for it's cooling effect. As I don't run an inter cooler, keeping the inlet air temp as low as possible helps prevent detonation.
I thought running water methanol injection with BP98 would work but still got detonation on very hot days 35 deg C +, hence the experiment with e85.
On a side note, the engine idles the best it ever has on e85, almost as good as an injected motor. The plugs don't seem to foul.
Very interesting I learnt alot about e 85 this week its quite the dark side fuel
Why no intercooler? they work a wonder and simple to apply
An intercooler really is a good idea. I'm sure that you know they provide power and knock reduction. Tho I am surprised that water injection didn't stop the knock. Perhaps post some photos of your old set up??? WI has excellent knock reduction capabilities and will absorb more heat energy than ethanol will (per unit mass).
More info would be needed, but perhaps there was some cylinder to cylinder water variations and only 1 or 2 of them were suffering from knock??? Individual exhaust gas or cylinder temperature measuring would have revealed what was going on.
Measuring the discharge temperatures from the turbo would also be interesting.
As a side note, when I first added the turbo to my supercharged MR2 (twincharger set up), I also modified and fitted a Pulsar GTiR intercooler. But unlike the factory intercooler which sat higher and had the engine lid's rubber seal pressed against it, the Pulsay 'cooler sat lower. Because of this, the engine suffered from noticeable knock under load. With a duct that made sure the air flowed thru the intercooler and out of the engine lid, knock gone. ;)
You can see the duct (made from 'high performance steel angle'............... :o ) sitting above the 'cooler core. The flange of it has the rubber seal on the lid pushed against it when the lid is closed.
I'm surprised you haven't installed an intercooler, I would consider one pretty much essential for a turbocharged circuit car - even more so considering you're current concerns with detonation.
Those $150 generic ebay intercoolers are surprisingly effective, and a million times better than no intercooler at all.
If you ever want to look into ditching the carbs and distributor, PM me. You might be surprised just how little a decent EFI setup can cost ;)
Let me know if you need an intercooler-same one you looked at ages ago--(and not flood damaged)Great thread this as i know nothing about any of it-interesting plus-keep up the good work fellas
Quote from: 17fitty on February 23, 2015, 08:47:42 PM
Let me know if you need an intercooler-same one you looked at ages ago--(and not flood damaged)Great thread this as i know nothing about any of it-interesting plus-keep up the good work fellas
Cheers 17fitty, I've been trying to avoid installing an intercooler but if I split another liner then i don't have many options other than ditching the poor old Nord and going v6.
Reilly just shakes his head and tells me to install a SR20det with an Alfa tapet cover.
Recon I'll get banned from the ital challenge? 😄
Well I can report the e85 experiment did not go well.
With jets the size of drinking straws the 40mm carbs could not deliver enough fuel when under load and boost. Fuel leaned out to 17:1 and the engine started to miss fire.
So after one lap of the local track it was back to bp98.
I think the limit is the channels in the carby from the main Jet to the Venturi.
More internal work would need to be done to get enough fuel into the engine.
Might be limited by the float valve.
If you're comitted, you can "constant flow" a carby - bin the float and needle valve, and drill the body for suction lines at the height you want the fuel at - you need a second pump and a return line to do this though.
Quote from: LaStregaNera on April 02, 2015, 10:30:17 AM
Might be limited by the float valve.
If you're comitted, you can "constant flow" a carby - bin the float and needle valve, and drill the body for suction lines at the height you want the fuel at - you need a second pump and a return line to do this though.
Yes you may be right, the neadle and seat were bigger for turbo charging but maybe not big enough.
The fellow pitting next to me during practice ran e85 in a Kawasaki motor bike engine, on carbies that powered an Aussie car type chassis. He said they used e85 to get a bit of an edge on their competition. He also said the e85 caused havock in the carbies and had to be flushed out after every race. Gunge would form in the carby and the needle and seat would get stuck shut.
How about returning to 98 and running direct port water injection?
Quote from: Duk on April 03, 2015, 12:04:05 PM
How about returning to 98 and running direct port water injection?
Yes have returned to Bp98, backed off the max timing by 2 degrees, installed a cold air intake and dropped boost from 12 to 9 psi.
Have been running an AEM water methanol single port injection system plumbed at the turbo outlet.
For the 1st time the car lasted 6 x 6 lap races at our local track. So am happy with the reliability. My clutch can't take more than 9 psi so until I upgrade my clutch I'm happy with the power it has.
When do you plan to fit a decent intercooler?
Quote from: Duk on April 05, 2015, 02:18:20 PM
When do you plan to fit a decent intercooler?
Probably after I split another liner 😀
Getting quite proficient at changing them now.
Quote from: festy on February 22, 2015, 03:26:29 PM
I'm surprised you haven't installed an intercooler, I would consider one pretty much essential for a turbocharged circuit car - even more so considering you're current concerns with detonation.
Those $150 generic ebay intercoolers are surprisingly effective, and a million times better than no intercooler at all.
If you ever want to look into ditching the carbs and distributor, PM me. You might be surprised just how little a decent EFI setup can cost ;)
What woukd you charge for a efi setup?
I was running normal 98 on my supercharged 33. No knocking issues. Boost hits over 1 bar. Also on blowtrough carbies. But kn e85 you might get a bit more power out of it.
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