I recently bought a 1983 Alfasud TI QV that came with two sets of King Springs. One set installed the other in a box. I find the springs are very stiff. The car also has Koni shocks (sort of dark orange to red colour). At the moment my plan is to track down some stock springs and put them back in. I would like to hear from anyone who has experience with both stock and king springs and can comment on how much stiffer the king springs are. I remember driving Alfasuds back n the early eighties and they were not overly firm in the ride. They did have exceptional handling and heavy steering at low speed but not a very stiff ride.
Any comments on the ride quality of Kings an Alfasud based on real experience would be welcomed
I would try and put the standard Alfa Romeo springs back in as soon as possible, as the stiff springs will cause it to crash over bumps and cause the front subframe to crack, [ even more ], ring around a few Alfa Romeo wreckers, try Monza Motors in Victoria.
The late model Suds have similar front struts like a 33, but are not interchangeable.
The early Suds and late model Sud struts are different, the late models, some say are not as good, as the cornering forces are transferred to the shock absorber and cause them to leak.
The Sud gets its excellent handling by having a low centre of gravity boxer engine, negative camber on the front suspension, long control arms that doesn't cause large camber and caster changes and low unsprung weight, by locating the heavy disc brakes inboard, stiff springs are only for the race track, Colin.
Thanks Col
Do you know if all the early suds with inboard brakes used the same springs or were they different depending on engine or trim level?
As far as your comments about the suspension design goes I agree with you entirely. My only surprise, design wise, is the need to pop out the tie rod ends to adjust the toe in/out. They could have used a short sleeve section with left and right hand threads in each end. That would also give finer adjustment.
I've got a couple of club members searching for springs for me and should have something soon.
Thanks Andrew
No, they used different springs for different combinations....however, i would grab what you can, as it would have to be better than those King Springs, which are unsuitable.
The tierod adjustment, is the same on a 33, you get used to it, i think the Suds toeout 2mm, and if you do a alignment check, and it is say 4 mm toeout, then you shorten the tierod by one turn, which changes the alignment by 2mm.
When you pop the tierod off the strut, put some copperkote or loctite silver anti seize on the tierod taper and the nut, to make it easier next time.
The 156 has a fine adjustment for toe, by lengthening or shortening the rack arms, more precise, but not as quick as a Sud or 33.
While you are down there, check the tightness of the pinch bolt on the lower balljoint, they have been known to come loose, i had one come loose on the Sud, while crossing an intersection, and the suspension collapsed, no such problems on a 33, different design, Colin.
I haven't driven a Sud with stock springs for over 20 years so wont comment on that but my sud running gear Sprint has Kings and I like them. Just my opinion but I find the ride sits right in between stiff for good handling with just the right amount of comfort for those bumps in the road.
I also have Koni Red shocks front and rear, these shocks are adjustable and should be on the softest setting as mine are. Unfortunately the shocks need to be removed from the car to adjust but it might be worth checking. I also like the stance kings give the car.
One more thing what's the condition of all the rubbers ? New one's would help the car feel better and if you have poly bushes throw them far away, they would likely be the cause of all your troubles if there in your car.
Thanks for that Ricky Ricardo.
Just on the topic of the KONIs does anybody know if these are adjustable for both bump and rebound?
I know some of the older KONI were only adjustable for the stroke in one direction and I can't remember which way. Bump or rebound.
Andrew
Can't comment on King springs stiffness versus original but also have a new set in the box but never fitted! The original TiQV's set up is very compliant but soft with lots of travel compared to modern day cars. The springs were unique to the TiQV which also meant a unique rear brake proportioning valve had to be fitted.
My preference is Koni Sport as found reds too soft and also had the rebound stiffened by 20% making the car so stable through fast cornering on rough roads. As Ricky suggested, would look to replace all bushes as they are pretty cheap.
Ultimately is your preference but if you find the King springs too stiff, the original springs work a treat with Konis.
Cheers
Paul
We had a club member a few years ago, who fitted Nolathane type bushes to his track / roadcar Sud, and at Phillip Island the front suspension collapsed in the pits, and that was caused by the too stiff bushes not allowing any movement and causing the front suspension pickup points to fail, very lucky it didn't happen on the track.
The Sud and 33 front suspension is almost Lotus like in its handling and lightness, too stiffer components will transfer forces to places they were not designed to take, Colin.
Quote from: amichie on October 30, 2014, 07:17:49 PM
I recently bought a 1983 Alfasud TI QV
Hi Andrew
Congratulations on your purchase and welcome to the 900 Series family. Great to see another Twin Carb Sud in Sydney. Any details or photos of your new acquisition?
Damian
I have had a good look over the rear bushes and they are original rubber design and seem to be OK. No real sign of splitting or perishing. The main noise I had was the poor fit of the rear King spring in the lower seat that would make a horrible crashing sound every now and again. I slipped a piece of rubber hose around the bottom turn of the coil and now that noise is gone. As soon as i get some suitable springs for the front I will pull the front apart and go over the bushes etc.
I bought some rubber bushes from ALFA-SERVICE online and they seem to have a Steel centre pin with a rubber bush and a fiberglass outer sleeve. Never seen that before, usually the outer is also a steel sleeve.
I presume these are just press in/out bushes but do you have to put these in with lock-tite?
I guess I should start a separate thread for pics of the car. I will do that later. BTW I love driving it even though its got a few too many bumps and rattles at the moment.
i put the original steering wheel back on yesterday as the previous owner had fitted a thin rim wood wheel (Nardi style) and that had also made the steering a little easier wth the original back on. I guess I really would like the car to be as original as possible and if I can get the stock springs back in then the only other non standard thing is the 2 inch exhaust.
The suspension bushes that are genuine have a steel sleeve in the centre, a rubber centre and a plastic - nylon outer sleeve that is bigger than where it goes in to the suspension arm, so to get it to go in, you put a big hose clamp around it, to compress it so that you can press it into the arm, you put the hose clamp around the bush and leave one end poking out about 5 - 10 mm, and feed that in to the arm, put rubber grease onto the bush and suspension arm, loctite is not required.
The suspension bushes for the front suspension on a Sud are interchangeable with a 33, i know as i have done it, Colin.
Thanks Colcol. Looking forward to getting this all done and then take it for a spin on some suitable twisty roads.
Because Suds and 33's are so light, they don't tend to wear out suspension parts, unlike 147's and 156's that require new rubbers every 100,000 klms or so, due to the extra bulk, Colin.
The car had one owner for the first 27 years and he kept an amazing log of service and parts and it never had any mention of rear bushes. It does show new ball joints a few years back plus a receipt for rebuilding the Konis.
The rear bushes will perish before they wear out, the ball joints are riveted in by the factory and to replace them, you drill the rivets out and the replacement balljoints are bolted in, check for any rust around the suspension arms where the balljoints attach, a problem area, Colin.
A bit of an update.
I pulled one of the front struts out today and checked the setting on the koni shock and compared the two sets of king springs I have.
1. The Koni was set to about 60% of full. It was set to about 1.5 turns off minimum and the total number of turns is about 2.25. I also confirmed that it only affects the rebound stroke and not the bump stroke. I don't know what colour koni it is because I didn't remove it from the strut housing.
2. Both king springs were approximately the same stiffness although they were a little different in design. 0ne was made from 14 mm wire with about 4 3/4 turns the other was made from 15mm wire with about 5 3/4 turns and according to my calculations they are both around 160lb/inch and I'm pretty sure they are uprated by about 30-35% over stock. I believe the stock spring are made from 13.5 mm wire but I don't know how many turns until I get my hands on a set.
Also ball joints are bolted in and absolutely no sign of rust near the ball joint or cracking in the body.
The longer/stiffer spring will be for the drivers side, so when the driver is in the car, the car will be on the level as opposed to being on the piss.
The orange Koni is the standardish one, the yellow ones are sport.
To remove the shocker from the housing, loosen off the bolt at the bottom of the housing and give it a tap with a mallet, to move the insert upwards, so you can see what color it is, if possible, put a longer bolt in the bottom, so you are using all the thread and you don't damage the thread.
The ball joints being bolted in means that they have been replaced at some stage which is good.
You can actually get the springs re-heat treated to be made softer, but now that spring wizard Lloyd Moss is no longer around, i don't know who could do it, Colin.
Finally found a pic of a stock front spring online.
Pending your budget, I would replace all bushes and have the Koni's serviced. There is a big difference between reds & yellows as reds are close to original in stiffness whilst yellows are noticeably harder and change some of the original compliant setting.
Not sure a 2 inch exhaust system will add a lot of power but the standard middle & rear exhausts rob circa 5hp ATW's so is a cheap hp gain to get the car breathing better. Bigger air intakes also make a big difference.
Would be great to see the car at Spetacollo!
Paul
I remember about 25 years ago they were making engine pipes for Suds and 33's that were timed properly, so that the pipes fed into the middle section with the correct timing, so that it scavenged the exhaust gases better.
Problems included, less ground clearance for pipes and the pipes would overheat the oil in the gearbox.
Also quite expensive to make as the pipes were all the same length and crossed over each other.
I think it was made by ANSA or someone,
The 1700 cc have bigger pipes than the 1500 coming out of the head in a 33.
One of the problems with fitting 1700 motors in the Sud from a 33, you have to fit the standard 1500 Sud engine pipes, Colin.
I don't know why I didn't think of this before but I did some measurements of the installed height of the springs today and compared it with the 86 sprint that has outboard brakes and drums on the rear.
Front lowered kings installed height about 140mm versus stock sprint at 175mm.
Rear lowered kings approx 210mm versus stock sprint rears at 240mm.
Looks like if I use the springs from the Sprint it will raise the car about 30 to 40mm all round and give me back my ride quality.
I might start pulling the Sprints Springs out this weekend.
Alfasud twin carb 1983 model is different to a 1986 Sprint, as the Sprint is based on the 33, the control arms and pickup points are different, but the springs may interchange.
We tried an experiment a few years ago, trying to fit 1985 33 suspension to a 1980 Alfasud, and while it all looked the same, things were different and nothing fitted properly, Colin.
I just started an introduction thread with some pics of the car. In the pics of the Alfasud TI it has standard King Spring lows in the rear and custom made king spring lows that are set 40mm lower than the standard lows. Given that standard lows are about 35mm lower tan stock springs that makes the fronts about 75mm lower.
http://www.alfaclubvic.org.au/forum/index.php/topic,13509.0.html
Bit of an update.
A few weeks back I had the passenger side front strut out and found it had what looked like a Koni Red shock insert and confirmed that you could push the strut all the way in and adjust the damping.
Today I pulled the drivers side apart and found it also had a red strut insert but this one is gas pressurised and is very difficult to compress fully.
I'm not sure what's going on here. I searched online a couldn't really confirm if the koni reds are gas pressurised or not. I guess I either have one worn out shock that has lost all its gas or I have two different shocks.
Both struts have the retaining bolts at the bottom of the strut, so I believe they have both had replacement inserts fitted at some point. The strut housings are original Alfa Spica units.
You might have a 'standard' road going KONI that has been rebuilt to race specifications, and it is on maximum stiffness and is hard to compress to engage the tang in the bottom of the KONI to adjust the settings.
If i remember rightly, you pushdown on the inner moveable tube and engage the tang anti clockwise for soft settings and clockwise to harden it up.
Or as KOMI once said, you adjust it clockwise to take up any wear, Colin.
I had no issues adjusting the passenger side one using the standard practice of pushing it all the way down, engaging the teeth and turning the rod, and there was absolutely no gas pressure pushing the piston rod out. In fact it would go back in very slowly under its own weight when held vertically.
The drivers side one has lots of pressure like a Bilstein and is virtually impossible to fully compress. I will try and knock out the insert tomorrow and see if I can see some part numbers. I'm now thinking I have one healthy one and one that's lost its gas.
OK. I decided that the issue with the strut inserts would have to wait for another day and I decided to put the struts back together using the stock springs from the Sprint.
Good news is that I have about 35mm of ride height back and now my steering is much lighter and the ride and handling is improved markedly. Stiff low springs at the front just caused understeer, heavy steering and a crappy ride.
I will post some pics etc later. Massive storm coming over here right now so the car is back in the garage.
I have made some pretty comprehensive measurements of the springs and calculated spring rates that I will post up later also.
In the pic below the springs from right to left are.
1. Stock Alfasud spring. Not sure what series or year.
2. King spring low part no KAFL-01. Supposedly 35mm lower than stock.
3. Stock 1986 Alfa sprint front spring.
Calculated installed spring rates from coil dimensions.
1. 115 pounds per inch free length 360mm
2. 161 pounds per inch free length 300mm
3. 139 pounds per inch free length 310mm
Now for the rear
In the pic below from right to left
1.Stock 1986 Alfa sprint rear spring.
2. A custom made King spring low set 30mm lower that the stock lowered spring resulting in a spring that is about 65mm lower than stock.
Calculated spring rates
1. 122 Pounds per inch free length 317mm
2. 135 Pounds per inch fre length 285mm