Hi Folks,
I'm new here and a prospective alfa owner after having had a 33 Quattro wagon some years back. The 33 was a beast, it was a freebie when I was broke and I figured it might get me through a year till I was over the hump of first home ownership (having sold my MX5 to use as a deposit). I grew to love it and hate it in equal measure, and although I had to push start it from time to time it NEVER let me down and I sold it after 5 years still going strong. Ahhh...
Anyhow, I'm considering reigniting the passion so to speak with a 159 wagon. I looked at one and was amazed at how only the Italians could make a theoretically practical car so useless! With seats folded there is a 2-3" lip at the front of the rear cargo area and then the seats go up at maybe a 5-10 degree angle (presumably to minimise usefulness). Coming from a car whose rear seats folded to form a DEAD FLAT rear cargo bay up to the front seats it's a disappointment (though somewhat endearing in an alfa sort of way).
I've read the 2009 update has an improved rear seat which "folds flat", but this is not terribly well documented. Given I don't have any 09 models nearby I can check out, does anyone here have an update model and can describe or better yet post an image of the rear seats folded? I'm trying to work out whether it's worth trying to find a later model one. Also, when did the update model come out, ie is any MY09 car the updated model? It's hard to tell with basically no external signs.
Cheers
Alf
Boot shot from 04/09 plated 159 wagon
^^^ That is our 159SW. For sale I might add! :P
As pictured, the seat doesn't fold flat. In comparison, the seats in my GT fold flat, but the design is quite different, where you first fold the seat base forwards, which obviously lowers the area where the seat backs can 'fold into' (or you can still fold the GT seats forward with the seat base in normal position, and the seat backs thus don't fold flat). Anyway, the 159 seat bases are 'fixed'.
Our car is a Series 2, and this is meant to be the 'updated' seat design AFAIK. Go figure.
I haven't seen a Series 3 car to compare.
:)
Quote from: shiny_car on May 17, 2014, 07:10:50 PM
^^^ That is our 159SW. For sale I might add! :P
That's GOLD! ;D
Quote from: shiny_car on May 17, 2014, 07:10:50 PM
Our car is a Series 2, and this is meant to be the 'updated' seat design AFAIK. Go figure.
I haven't seen a Series 3 car to compare.
:)
There's a 2011 (61 reg) on Auto Trader (UK) for sale and the boot looks no different to yours...
Thanks very much, great info and I think that answers the thread! Obviously some journalist took the PR fluff a bit too literally. It's good in a way since it means that at least in that respect there's no point me looking for anything newer/more expensive to gain some practicality. In fact maybe I should get a GT instead? :)
Aside from the rear tailgate you can actually sort of open from the outside (Alfa gold) is there much difference between say an 07 and an 09? Noticeable on road stuff, equipment or fixes for known faults? It seems these things are actually pretty well designed/built and that the mid-cycle-update "non-facelift" was very mild.
That's a nice looking Ti shiny_car, very tempting but I need to retain some sense to the purchase. I'm looking for an oil burner I'm afraid, and an auto at that since it's primarily for a highway commute each weekday and I'd like the economy and relaxing nature of a modern diesel.
Cheers.
The differences that I recall between series of 159 include:
Series 2 (compared with Series 1): resculptured rear seat, with base sittings lower (whether it impacts on fold-down, I don't know); lighter suspension components (more pieces are alloy) that reduces unsprung weight; tailgate-release push button badge
Series 3 (compared with Series 2): loses Hillholder brake function; loses full size spare wheel; anthracite Ti wheel option
In Australia, I think all S1 Sportwagons are non-Ti versions, and included petrol 2.2 + 3.2, diesel 1.9 + 2.4.
For S2 cars, the diesel 2.4 was available in normal (incl manual) and Ti versions (?all auto), and petrol now only in 3.2 V6 Ti spec (all auto, except handful of special imports).
For S3, pretty sure all were Ti spec, and in 2.4 and 3.2 guise.
Basically, you probably want a S2 2.4 Ti, being the best value all-round package for most people. For us, my wife insisted on AWD at the time, so the 3.2 petrol was the only choice, but my personal pick anyway!
:)
Quote from: shiny_car on May 18, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
Series 3 (compared with Series 2): loses Hillholder brake function...
Sorry to briefly go off-topic, but do you know Alfa's rationale behind this?! It's just one of the things I love about my car!
Bloody hell, I didn't know that about the 159 rear seats.
How ridiculous of Alfa, is something under them (tank)?
I've been hunting for a blue 3.2 or 2.4 159 Ti Sport wagon as a replacement for our 156 but if the seats don't fold properly it will annoy me no end. Anybody know if the seats in the Brera fold properly (OT sorry)?
Quote from: [MotoPete] on May 18, 2014, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: shiny_car on May 18, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
Series 3 (compared with Series 2): loses Hillholder brake function...
Sorry to briefly go off-topic, but do you know Alfa's rationale behind this?! It's just one of the things I love about my car!
It's what I've been told, but can't actually confirm 100% it's true. Still, no idea behind the rationale.
Quote from: Craig_m67 on May 18, 2014, 01:08:17 PM
Bloody hell, I didn't know that about the 159 rear seats.
How ridiculous of Alfa, is something under them (tank)?
I think the transmission tunnel for the AWD cars does have an impact, say compared with the FWD GT (though the 156 Crosswagon overseas was of course AWD and the same platform as the GT).
For us, not a big deal, because we don't ever fold the seats down.
:)
Quote from: Craig_m67 on May 18, 2014, 01:08:17 PM
Anybody know if the seats in the Brera fold properly (OT sorry)?
They're the same as the 159 unfortunately...
Drove the 159 (1.9JTDm auto) again and it was a sobering experience. Leaving aside all the practicality issues (which it can be argued are somewhat offset by the divine looks) it was a bit of a slug. What felt like a muscular delivery in tight city streets at low speed and light throttle simply didn't get any faster when opened up on a highway. An hour later I drove an 07 Passat TDI (with twice the mileage) which claims 103kw and 320nm vs the Alfa on 110/320 and it was like night and day, the Passat felt like a rocket (and has none of the practicality issues of the alfa).
The 159 had been almost exclusively city driven for the last 18 months and although there was no warnings on the dash I'm wondering if the DPF or inlet manifold etc was clogged with junk. Very underwhelming performance and was showing an average of 9.8l/100km on the computer - slow AND thirsty. Is the 2.4 even more thirsty again?
I still liked the solidity of the body, doors closed with a pleasing thump and there were no rattles I recall but the road noise was very intrusive at freeway speeds. The poor car had horrid tyres on so perhaps it was just down to that. Despite the general lack of space anywhere, the interior was a nice place to be, and the front seats (poverty pack) were great. Although it felt a lot slower it didn't have the frenetic nothing-to-everything surge of the Passat which highlighted the fwd torque steer, the Alfa always felt very composed.
I'll keep looking and an open mind though, maybe try again with a 2.4 but if fuel consumption is at the level of a good turbo petrol then why bother?
Sorry for hijacking my own thread...
I wouldn't take too much notice of what the on board computer says... mine (3.2 JTS Q4) often sits around the 14 mark, yet (fuel) log book records actually put me around the 11 mark. Log books don't lie.
The 1.9 should be using around 6, with the 2.4 only slightly worse off at 7.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q-Uwqg9w94
This one seems to go alright...
Quote from: alf on May 18, 2014, 11:50:20 PM
The 159 had been almost exclusively city driven for the last 18 months and although there was no warnings on the dash I'm wondering if the DPF or inlet manifold etc was clogged with junk.
Still OT, but the 1.9 diesel doesn't have a filter to clog like the 2.4 diesel. Our 1.9 is pretty brisk with the turbo spinning, granted the 147 is 268kg lighter (1310 vs 1578). My pick would be a 1.9 manual, only shame is there was no TI version of the 159 wagon.
No filter? You mean in the exhaust? I thought I'd come across various threads moaning about DPF problems in both 1.9's and 2.4's?
It would be interesting to drive the 159 and Passat side by side and see how much was real and how much perceived. Perhaps the more fluid nature of the full auto in the 159 vs Passat DSG masked the lurch from off boost to on boost and the difference was not as much as it felt. But it felt like a lot!
Sooted up inlet manifold / swirl flaps jammed / etc??
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 09:29:57 AM
My pick would be a 1.9 manual, only shame is there was no TI version of the 159 wagon.
I think you mean "there was no TI version of the
1.9 159 wagon"...
Quote from: alf on May 19, 2014, 02:14:14 PM
No filter? You mean in the exhaust? I thought I'd come across various threads moaning about DPF problems in both 1.9's and 2.4's?
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant there is no DPF on the 1.9 diesel in our 147, which is also the same as the 1.9 in the 159. Learnt this second-hand from a someone who should know from Lance Dixon.
Quote from: [MotoPete] on May 19, 2014, 05:41:46 PM
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 09:29:57 AM
My pick would be a 1.9 manual, only shame is there was no TI version of the 159 wagon.
I think you mean "there was no TI version of the 1.9 159 wagon"...
Yes, that's another way to say it.
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 06:15:56 PM
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant there is no DPF on the 1.9 diesel in our 147...
At a guess, pre 2005 (147) cars may not have had one as they would only have been required to meet Euro III. Post '05 cars would definitely have one fitted, as only the 1.3 variant of the JTD engine family can meet Euro IV standards without a DPF.
As an aside, the JTD design is co-owned between Fiat and GM, so you'll see variants of the engine in a lot vehicles across both company's ranges.
Quote from: [MotoPete] on May 20, 2014, 11:42:46 AM
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 06:15:56 PM
Sorry if I wasn't clear, I meant there is no DPF on the 1.9 diesel in our 147...
At a guess, pre 2005 (147) cars may not have had one as they would only have been required to meet Euro III. Post '05 cars would definitely have one fitted, as only the 1.3 variant of the JTD engine family can meet Euro IV standards without a DPF.
As an aside, the JTD design is co-owned between Fiat and GM, so you'll see variants of the engine in a lot vehicles across both company's ranges.
With all respect, I tend to trust the view of the local Alfa Romeo dealer. But, happy to have evidence shown to the contrary. Sorry for still being OT.
Pretty easy to check with ePer, what's the engine code?
I wouldn't trust an Alfa dealer, they told me my car** couldn't exist when I wanted to buy some spare parts, even though it was sitting on their forecourt. I had the PN I needed (same part in the 147JTD) and my VIN but they just couldn't cope :)
*personal import
Quote from: Craig_m67 on May 20, 2014, 06:21:28 PM
Pretty easy to check with ePer, what's the engine code?
I wouldn't trust an Alfa dealer, they told me my car** couldn't exist when I wanted to buy some spare parts, even though it was sitting on their forecourt. I had the PN I needed (same part in the 147JTD) and my VIN but they just couldn't cope :)
*personal import
Engine Number 937A2000-#######
Engine Code JTD M-JET
The 1.9 JTD was put into at least 30 different vehicles apparently (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine#1.9 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JTD_engine#1.9)).
Not surprised the Australian dealer struggled with your personal import. I assume it was a 156 or GT with a 1.9 JTD. You might as well have turned up to the dealers forecourt and had a Suzuki SX-4 with a 1.9 JTD engine. The dealer's system is Australian-based, not a world wide reference on Alfa Romeo vehicles, and will utilise the VIN or Australian delivered model to determine which parts are relevant to the vehicle. Surprised though that you couldn't just order the relevant part number.
PS: this is another strike against me for being Off Topic, sending myself to the sin bin.
Quote from: Craig_m67 on May 20, 2014, 06:21:28 PM
I wouldn't trust an Alfa dealer...
+1
McCarroll's managed to swindle the previous owner of my car to the tune of $629.90 for a pair of plain old ordinary front disc rotors. They really ought to be ashamed of themselves.
Still, I guess more the fool to him for not shopping around.
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 09:29:57 AM
only shame is there was no TI version of the 159 wagon.
Yes there was. We have a November 2007 built ti wagon with the 2.4 JTDM and six speed auto. It has loads of power and is pretty quick off the line. The ti suspension is firm and tight and makes the car feel very nimble and not at all heavy. We love it. We haven't folded the seats down much but haven't found it a big problem. I also have a GT and have folded the seats down on that more often to carry my bass guitar and camping gear and they do fold flat.
The reason the 159 2.4 - 5 cylinder had a particle filter was for the latest Euro pollution laws, but the 1.9 4 cylinder diesel motor in the 147 is an absolute ripper because it won its class at the Bathurst production car race about 8 years ago, so all you diesel 147 owners out there can brag, that they drive a Bathurst winner, that actual 147 that won Bathurst usually makes an appearance at the Alfa Romeo Owners club 6 hour race in October at Winton, Colin.
Quote from: oz3litre on May 24, 2014, 07:33:44 PM
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 09:29:57 AM
only shame is there was no TI version of the 159 wagon.
Yes there was. We have a November 2007 built ti wagon with the 2.4 JTDM and six speed auto. It has loads of power and is pretty quick off the line. The ti suspension is firm and tight and makes the car feel very nimble and not at all heavy. We love it. We haven't folded the seats down much but haven't found it a big problem. I also have a GT and have folded the seats down on that more often to carry my bass guitar and camping gear and they do fold flat.
I think what Brad was trying to say and MotoPete had posted was there was no Ti version of the 1.9 159 Wagon or sedan for that matter.
The GT is a very practical coupe and sexy to boot.
Quote from: oz3litre on May 24, 2014, 07:33:44 PM
Quote from: Brad M on May 19, 2014, 09:29:57 AM
only shame is there was no TI version of the 159 wagon.
Yes there was.
Yep, I know. As Pep mentioned I was referring to the 159 1.9 JTDM Sportswagon not coming in a TI version.
... btw: for reference 2008 saw 159 Sportswagon's arriving in a TI version with 2.4 JTDM in either an Automatic or Manual transmission. I did a fair bit of research on the Alfa diesels, before getting out 147.
2.4 JTDm Ti manual Sportwagon?
My dream 159.. Never seen one though (Ti)
Quote from: Craig_m67 on May 25, 2014, 11:36:31 PM
2.4 JTDm Ti manual Sportwagon?
My dream 159.. Never seen one though (Ti)
Neither have I. I think I prefer the auto though because it keeps the gear changes nicely in the torque band which is important with a diesel. We drive ours in sport mode all the time after finding the economy is the same in normal mode. Sport mode is more fun. The paddle shifts work beautifully if you really want to change manually, but we don't tend to use them. It is the best auto trans I have ever driven. My wife has a very long daily commute and the auto is more relaxing. She looks forward to it because the car is so much fun to drive.
Quote
Very underwhelming performance and was showing an average of 9.8l/100km on the computer - slow AND thirsty. Is the 2.4 even more thirsty again?
Alf,
I have been logging my fuel consumption on my 2.4l JTDm and after 15873km it has averaged
8.74l/100km. It is my daily driver and has done 5 country trips. (note - it is 2nd hand - just gone over 60,000k's on the ODO). FYI.
Quote from: shiny_car on May 18, 2014, 06:22:13 PM
Quote from: [MotoPete] on May 18, 2014, 09:33:57 AM
Quote from: shiny_car on May 18, 2014, 09:23:40 AM
Series 3 (compared with Series 2): loses Hillholder brake function...
Sorry to briefly go off-topic, but do you know Alfa's rationale behind this?! It's just one of the things I love about my car!
My car is S3 (manual) and it has hillholder.