Hello guys,
Have looked at previous posts and I appreciate that the topic is covered somewhat heavily...........however for my own peace of mind and sanity, my 2003 JTS manual barely gets above 50 degrees, is this likely a stuck open thermostat?
If so do I have to but the housing also as mentioned elsewhere (but not with 100% certainty) and what one to buy and where?
Oh and I suspect I shall fit myself. Any inherent difficulties?
That's a lot to ask in one post but id really appreciate the help.
Thanks
Bloomers
If your thermostat is more than 10 minutes old, then its most likely faulty, yours is a 2003 JTS, so its most likely on its 4th thermostat, like mine is.
Get a new one at Italian Automotive Spares in Brunswick, [03] 9036 1606, Monza Motors in Bayswater, Maceuri Motors in Clayton, Alfaman in Footscray, Marranello Pursang Motors in Brunswick, Ill Bollide Motors in Thornbury, Alfa Donnini Repairs in East Malvern or look in the Alfa Club Magazine.
They are not hard to change, just a lot of pipes to remove, [ if this thing had one more pipe going to it, you could make it breed!].*
The thermostat comes in a housing, complete with pipes, as the pipes are prone to leaking as well, a cheap thermostat won't have a a temperature sensor, thats why its a bit cheaper.
You could most likely look on youtube on fitting one.
* As what 'Jellignite Jack' said after looking at Triumph Fuel Injection, Colin.
Thanks Colin. are they really that bad? I have a feeling that its stuck open as it takes for ever to read any temp at all.
Going to have a go this weekend if I can source a Thermostat.
Never done it before but "He who dares" and all that
Thanks
bloomers
The JTS thermostat is different to a twin spark, so don't get a 156 2 litre thermostat, get a JTS, i wouldn't think you would have much trouble getting one as they are changed as often as say a air filter, so it should be a stocked item, an Alfa Workshop i would say stock them.
The JTS thermostat reminds me of a MG driving mate from a long time ago, faulty Lucas fuel pump, British Leyland wanted $40 for one, but spare parts storeman said he could do 3 for $100, MG driver laughed, storeman said you will be back, and within 4 years MG had consumed 2 more Lucas fuel pumps, Alfa Spare parts places should sell them in blister packs, as i have had 3 and it won't be my last, Colin.
Hi Colin, what is the difference between the thermostats besides a the part number? Both engines run at the same operating temp and have identical hose outlets and temp switch location.
Don't know what the difference is between the thermostats, but the spare parts places have different listings, and i am not brave enough to buy a twin spark thermostat to see if i can get it to fit my JTS, the thermostats look very small, and maybe they are not big enough to do the job for long periods, say over 2 to 3 years, but Vectra's and Astra's have the same ferocious appetite for thermostats as the twin sparks and JTS's, except according to my mechanic mate, they are a stinker to change, the Alfa is easy, swings and roundabouts, Colin.
Thanks for the info.
Blister pack? lol............... oh dear what have I bought, washed and polished her today mind and I may forgive the thermo sadists. Going to fit this weekend.
On a side not Colin......... since she has been running cool and rich the plugs upon inspection were sooted to say the least.
Now they are expensive so I cleaned them up. (false economy)???
Also they are twin spark I think NGK's with the double nodes is this correct for a 2.0 JTS? (2003)
Also (sorry) best place to get replacement for me here in QLD ??? (Ebay)???
Thanks buddy
Bloomers
From what i have seen, the JTS spark plugs are the same as the twin spark, but only half as many, or you get a spare set, when you buy a set for a twin spark, the JTS spark plugs are very easy to change, being located on top of the engine, the NGK's are Japanese and have 2 nodes.
Give Italian Automotive Spares a try, [03] 90361606 for your spark plugs and thermostat, Colin.
Righteo buddy cheers for that.
Bought a "Calorstat" thermostat from carparts4less Uk looks ok. cheaper than anything this side of the pond. And arrived in 7 days!
And..... just got my self a U480 OBD II scanner. I have a light bugging the shit out of me.
Im guessing nothing to do with the sensor on the Stat. That would be too easy. I shall wait for the weekend and check the sodden thing.
Bloomers
Ok couldn't wait. Wish I had though.... :(
So codes thrown up are PO420 and PO430 Cat efficiency below threshold bank 1 and bank 2
And PO340 Crankshaft position sensor A Bank 1 circuit malfunction?
The chap I bought it from had the car stalling and the garage changed the cam sensor and as it had a sensor fault. over a $1000 I have the paperwork. Mid march with 3 months warranty. Cam sensor and Crank shaft Position sensor the same thing?
If so does garage warranties remain vaild for the new owner here in QLD?
I hear that stuck open thermo's can cause lots of problems like this.
Not sure If I should take it to that garage? :(
Interesting to see how the 'Calorstat' thermostat lasts, any idea who and where they are made?
Is the light that is bugging you an engine light or airbag light?, some scanners won't switch of airbag lights, if your JTS is approaching 100,000klms, it could be the FOUR Lambda sensors are on the way out.
The sensor on the thermostat is for temperature only, make sure its clean with no rust, Colin.
Crank sensor goes in the block, under the start motor, need long fingers to get at but easy to replace (6mm screw, plug and play). Cam sensor probably goes in the head, near the cam :)
You could buy twenty or so OEM crank sensors for $1k
Plenty of each type (new OEM) on eBay UK ... or your preferred supplier.
I've done the crank sensor myself, not difficult.
I have replaced crank sensor in JTS, couldn't do it from top, due to fat hands, but did it from underneath, when i had the oil sump off, it is near the end of the engine where it meets the gearbox, wasn't giving trouble, but i had the opportunity to replace it....so i did due to being paranoid about crank sensors in a Commodore that had 3 fail on me at the worst time, classic crank sensor failure is car runs ok when cold, stops when it warms up, then lift the bonnet and half an hour later it works, there are different crank sensors, Genuine and non genuine, early twin spark, late twin spark and JTS, it is a mine field, get the right one.
The cam sensor is at the front of the motor at the top next to the cam shaft, you would have to remove the timing covers, serpentine, timing and balance belts to get at it.
Cat efficientcy may mean that its only operating at 94%, and that will trip a sensor for when it drops below say 95%, i heard that you can clean the cats out, by running a few litres of Lacquer Thinners through the petrol, mixed with a full tank of fuel, anyone tried it?, Colin.
Thanks guys.
Hey Col that thinners sounds like a scary operation from someone who feeds his baby girl with High Octane happy juice.
worried that its just had a cam sensor replaced and timing and closed cleared and then had to go back to have the cam sensor sorted and codes cleared again but now the crank sensor is showing?? connected in anyway??
Anyway thermo being changed this weekend then Ill clear the codes and see..................
Fingers crossed hey ?? haha
Hopefully they replaced the camshaft position sensor with a new one, not much to go wrong, just sits there and tells the computer where the camshaft is, either works or not, throwing up errors may mean its on the way out.
Try the Lacquer Thinners in tank and see if it works, otherwise you may have to pressure test the cats, to see if they are blocked, Colin.
Hi Guys
I have had the same problem as bloomers1156 with my 2004 alfa 156 JTS.
So I replaced the thermostat together with the temperature sensor yesterday and after a 30km run I achieved a maximum temperature reading of 70 degrees on my gauge.
Thought I'd run a test on my old thermostat today and I don't know what to make of the readings.
Firstly I put the old thermostat in a pan , filled it with water and brought it to the boil.
The results are as follows.
80 degrees fully closed
90 degrees the bulb moved 1/8"
93 degrees the bulb moved 3/16"
95 degrees the bulb moved 1/4"
97 degrees the bulb moved 5/16"
At this point the temperature inside the housing around the bulb was at a maximum of 97.5 degrees and I could not get it any higher however the water was boiling and the temperature outside the housing was 98.8degrees.
The temperature measurements are accurate but the movement measurements are eyeball only.
From this test I assume that the thermostat is functioning properly and that the temperature sensor is faulty.
Does anyone know whether the engine management system relies on this sensor to calculate the air/fuel ratios or is there another sensor somewhere.
any comments would be welcome
Vitt
The temperature sensor is on the thermostat housing, remove the wire and ground it, the temperature gauge should go to min or max, if it does this, you have the right wire!, remove the temperature sender and give it a clean up as they can get corrosion on it, that insulates it from the real temperature of the coolant, Colin.
I noticed that on the specs for this thermostat, that they should begin to open at 88 centigrade, i would like to know what causes them to fail after omly a few years and to open early, me thinks that they look like a undersize thermostat, Colin.
Well I thought Id update, finally got to fit the part after waiting an ice age for a company in the UK to admit they sent me the wrong part arseholes.
Anyway...... Fitted it after losing those bloody factory fitted alfa hose clamps. (replaced with shiny Jubilee's)
Hour job at max. what a lovely sight seeing for the first time seeing the needle banging on the door of 90! Lovely jubbly.
Running so so much better and oddly enough fault codes have dropped from 3 to 1 losing codes 420 and 430. The cat threshold inefficiency bank 1 and 2 jobbies.
That just leaves code 340 the (Crankshaft position sensor A bank 1 circuit malfunction)
This one was cleared and stayed off a week. then popped up. cleared it again still waiting.
I tried looking for the crankshaft sensor both from above and below and Im buggered if I can see it. certainly no brown connector. Looked near the rear of the starter didn't jump out??? odd.
Anyone know if they are prone to go after 114k? Have looked for a new one and they all come without cable for mine?? was thinking if its circuit malfunction then with cable may prove better?
Cheers fellas
Usually when the crank sensor goes, it stops when the engine is hot and then works when the motor cools down.
I have replaced the crank sensor in my JTS, not because it failed, but i have bad memories of a Commodore that used to eat crank sensors, so after 12 years and 125k, i replaced it.
I ordered one, the JTS is different to twin sparks, and i was buggered if i could find it as well.
Then i was underneath the car replacing the sump on the engine and i noticed at the back of the crank, near the no 4 conrod, there was a gear like device for triggering the crank sensor, and then i saw the crank sensor.
So you will need to look for the crank sensor from under the car, from memory it is at the front of the engine, held in by a 6mm cap screw, so you need a 5mm allen key, Colin.
back of the engine under the starter motor.
Typically the crank sensor starts to fail when it gets hot ie. starts fine then gives up about twenty minutes later. Sounds like yours is about to go. It's not repairable, a piece of cake to replace and not very expensive. Swap it out now before it leaves you stranded. Car won't start or run when it does fail.
Cheers fellas...... Yes I suspect that the ole cranky crank sensor maybe lining me up for trouble.
Im not being lazy cause I have searched for many times for the right one. But mine is always advertised without cable? I want a bloody cable with it. As the code mentions circuit malfunction as a side.
Anyone??
2003 156 JTS manual.
Thanks in advance.
Long shot but if anyone has any pics of the location of the crank sensor Id be eternally grateful Id like to have a go myself after the all conquering replacement thermostat. (Im relatively new to the tools).
Cheers.
It's very difficult to photograph as it's on the side of the engine block facing the firewall, underneath the starter motor. The starter motor is on the passenger (LH) end of the engine block, near the gearbox, ie. where the flywheel is. You get to the sensor (6mm Allen bolt) from underneath, you can find it easily by chasing the loom down the back of the engine, there are no other sensors down their (just the starter motor).
You need to to work out which part number you actually have, they may be slightly different across the engine/model range. Pretty sure mine (JTD) was also just a sensor that you then plugged into the loom, was ages ago that I did it (2008).
Whack your VIN into ePer and look up the part number.
http://eper.fiatklubpolska.pl/navi?FORCED=TRUE&GUI_LANG=3&LANGUAGE=3&COUNTRY=012&
It's unlikely to be the cable, it's always the sensor in my experience.
I always buy things in two when ordering from the UK, one for the car, one for the preventative maintenance kit. It will go again stranding you (or a mates will) and it will cost more to ship than it's worth.
My JTS crank sensor had no cable with it, just unplug the cable and pull out the old crank sensor, buggered if i could see it from the top, so look at it from underneath, if i remember rightly, the twin sparks have a cable, but they are different to JTS's.
I would have swore on a stack of bibles that the sensor was at the front of the motor, but listen to Choderboy as he knows what he is talking about, i may have been standing on my head at the time and was disorientated.
If you have a look and join one of the UK Forums, they have photo's of it, as thats how i didn't find out where it was, when the sump was off the car i found it, having the car on a hoist may help, Colin.
Thanks chaps. I am hoping to use a mates mates pit soon. However the light remains off?? :o)
Gonna run the ole girl to Mooloolaba this weekend. Just as soon as I have joined RACQ.
If you remove the battery and tray on the 156 you may be able to reach down to it from the top.
I have changed plenty on 147's this way, as there is a bit more room to reach down due to the smaller intake tube.
It is 100% where I mentioned previously, under the starter motor right where the bell housing meets the block.
Cheers
Mick
Sorry for late reply guys found it and replaced it, many thanks. Diamond geezers the lot of ya