My 156 has been absolutely wonderful. However, I recently got new disks, rotors and pads done by JAX Tyres. I've had them done x2 now, and they are still squealing like an absolute pig. I could be heard from a kilometre away! Heck, it sounds like I'm driving a semi-trailer. It's fine under hard breaking, but rolling to a stop, I've never heard such a noise!
I'm going to take the car back today again! Hopefully third times the charm.
Anyone able to shed some light on this issue?
Were the pads bedded in to the new rotor? May have glazed them.
Glazed or not, some copper grease behind the pad can help or grind off a 45 degree chamfer on the leading edges of the pads. The chamfering will certainly return your sanity back, had the exact same circumstances myself and stop the noise straight away. What's happening to you is the leading edge is vibrating causing the squeal between the back of the pad and the caliper piston as everything is so new. Take that sharp edge off to give it a chance to bed in. Just take off a 5mm bevel. The grease is just added medicine to help the rear of the pad move a little until it finds its sweet spot. Don't cake it on, just a smear where the piston contacts the pad. Normally pads come with a Teflon or similar gasket on the rear to alleviate squeal, but as Murphy would have it yours aren't quite doing it.
As cool jesus says noise is caused by the pads vibrating, the pads are glazed up and there is not enough friction between the pad and the rotor so its just squeeling, you just need the pads taking out and deglazed, i usually deglaze the pads by rubbing them in a number 8 motion on coarse concrete to knock the glaze off.
I purchased some new pads a while ago from The Spare Place and they were Magnetti Marreli brand and they had a little chamfer on the leading edge and they didn't squeel when i put them in and the chamfer is now worn off and they still don't squeel.
Used to have a VL Commodore which used to have noisy brakes IF you didn't put a orange silicon behind the brake pad between the piston and the pad, the brake pads used to come with the 'anti squeel' tube, this would stop many comebacks.
Quattroporte, may need to use Alfa Romeo specialist in the future who know all these little tricks, as opposed to a tyre dealer, who most likely does Commodores all day, Colin.
Good point, forgot about sanding off the pad a little. Just point out again, don't chamfer the entire depth of the pad just a few mm to give it a chance to bed in nicely. All your doing is in a sense creating a sled. Imagine taboganing. Rather than a box which will catch in the snow and tip you over, you use a deck with a slight turn up at the front.
It's gotten progressively better as I've driven. Not sure whether that's a good sign? Colin, I completely agree! However, my Dad was persistant on saving the 300 odd dollars and using JAX. I have always stressed that I'd rather pay a bit more and have it done right the first time. Unfortunately, all our Alfa specialists are a bit of a drive away!
I can understand the problem of Alfa Service Providers being a fair old clip away, it seems to take forever to get there, do you know what brand of rotor and pads were used?.
I was told years ago that when you put new brake pads in, you should give them a good 'cook', that is do about 60 kph and apply the brakes as you are driving, until the front pads start 'smoking', this process burns all the gases out of the pads, that are present during the manufacturing process, these gases can act like a lubricant on the brakes and you can have problems, when you have to use the brakes hard for the first time, say when going down a steep hill, problem is you may glaze up the pads and they will be noisy and not work as good as an unglazed pad.
The better brake pad makers, 'pre-cook' their brake pads in an oven to remove all the gases, so you don't have to, Colin.
As you mentioned your dad wanted to save $300 by going to Jax. There was a reason why they were $300 cheaper. they used cheap parts. When it comes to brakes on the 156/147 series cars, if you don't use a good quality disc and pad you will always get squealing doesn't matter what you do. It comes down to the compound and unless you use something good; Genuine, Ferodo, ATE, Textar, Magnetti Marelli like Col mentioned or even Raicam the brakes will always squeal.
All the above brands can be bought form Australian parts suppliers like The Spares Place, Italian Automotive Spares, Turin Imports.
I've heard bad reports on EBC pads squeal and in your case can be heard from km's away from mechanics and they avoid them like the plague. They machined the discs, chamfered the pads, used that sticky stuff on the back of them to stop them vibrating, gave the mechanic a specific method of bedding them in. The mechanic did everything the brake pad seller told him to do, and still they squealed and the customer wasn't happy.
Hopefully they get it right 3rd time, but if not maybe suggest they fix the issue by replacing whats on the car with good quality parts made by trusted brands from the above suppliers, not the generic discs and pads that are found online or from Burson/Repco/local brake place like ABS or Brakes Plus.
You only get what you pay for, you are not paying for someone to learn how to fix an Alfa Romeo, when you take it to an Alfa Service provider of your choice, and they usually get it right the first time as they have done it many times before.
My Magnetti Marelli brake pads work good, but they dust up the rims in a couple of days, anybody had any experience with brake pads that don't dust up the wheels so quick?
I have heard of some brake pads that are guaranteed to last say 60,000 klms, by being very hard, which means poor cold weather stopping, bad braking performance and no pedal feel, but they do last a long time, but have so little friction, they get the rotors so hot they warp them and to some drivers, long life, that is everything.
Has anyone heard of the brake pads called 'roadworthy specials'?, they are about $15 per set, made to get the car through its roadworthy, cause the brake pads are new and thick, but the so called friction material is wood, steel and anykind of cheap filler they can use, my mechanic mate comes accross them occasionally, usually when there is a problem with brakes, you have been warned, Colin.
So Quattro, what's the goss?
Although not beyond reason, I'd be surprised if a franchise such as jax would compromise their client base with fitting anything less than average pads. I guess it's just me, but without first hand knowledge I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt. I've replaced a few pads and rotors and have only once had the squeal which I sorted out with a chamfer. I'll add that I was particular in bedding in the pad.
I managed to have them pay for Alfa Romeo to fix them and now they work perfectly. When I had returned the old parts to JAX they were completely rusted through! Shocking! I swear I heard a little squeling today, but I don't see how that would be possible as I drove completely as per my mechanics instructions - don't cook them! The brakes were extremely weak at first, but having driven a good 400 odd kilometres in them they are now a good strength. However, now I keep hearing this rumble from the right front side of the car when I go over a bump. I had to have the gravel tray sqrewed back in on that side as it came loose. I believe it may be coming loose again and I will no doubt need to replace it to rectify the issue. Has anyone else had this issue beforehand?
The brakes are made of steel and they will rust up, which is nothing to worry about, do you know what brand was fitted?, i am on the lookout for some brakes for my 156 that don't dirty the wheels in a week, any ideas?.
The brakes will take a while to bed in, so the pedal may be a bit longer and you might have to push harder on the pedal, until the pads wear in to match the rotors.
The gravel tray or undertray or pain in the bum tray is made of plastic fibre and gets damaged easy, when it comes loose, have it fixed straight away, as it flops about and bits break off it.
Mine had a mixture of 6mm allen head and torx head screws of different lengths, i replaced mine with 6mm cap screws of about 25mm long, so they are all the same.
I think you can get aluminium undertrays for 156's at 'Alfastumper', they are quite pricey and freight is a killer.
I fixed mine with strips of aluminium pop riveted to the existing tray, after 4 years, its still hilding, fingers crossed!, Colin.
We didn't bother putting the undertray back on mine after redoing the front wishbones/links and ARB. That was five years ago, no drama or noticeable difference other than the benefit of being able to reach and change the oil filter more easily !
I left my undertray off for a few months while i fixed it, and i noticed the engine got a bit dirtier from the splash from the wheels, the drag factor went from ,300 to ,305, so fuel use rocketed up, and the important thing, was that the undertray is good for catching oil and coolant leaks, so when you peer in the engine bay, you can see whats leaking onto the undertray, these Alfa Romeo engineers, think of everything, Colin.
Mmmm, me thinks the undertray is obviously there for a good reason.
Such as to prevent nasties such as stones, mud, dirt and things flicking up into engine bay.
That timing belt is a little precious, along with other things.
So you change oil and service underneath say once every 5000km or 10000km, so maybe an hour out of your life to do so ie remove and refit tray. Estimating, say 5000km, 50km a day, 100 days to do the 5000km, so about 80-100-120hrs of operation, equates to about 1% of time of operation, so for that "much trouble" I would be keeping the undertray on so save the possible extra wear and risk on the belt and other things.
I have a V6 156. But then thinking about it, the 164 didn't have an undertray.
If Alfa Romeo could save $50 by leaving out the undertray, they would have, on the JTS, the cam belt is fully enclosed, but the serpentine belt is out in the open, they could have used the $50 to put in cup holders.
Once you get good at it, and make all the fasteners the same, it takes 5 minutes to get it off and 5 minutes to put it back.
When General Motors released the VE-2, they put an undertray on it to save fuel.
If you had a 159, they have about twice as many fasteners holding the undertray as the 156, Colin.
Ummm, on reflection, guess the tray does several things as all have discussed.
Keeping nasties out of the engine bay (theoretical).
Aerodynamic effects, it does work (at speed).
And collecting or trapping any oil leaked from your motor, which is probably the main requirement for environmental reasons. All new cars seem to have them.
And back on OP, have changed pads and discs on several different cars many times, disc brands include OEM (Ford, SAAB and Alfa), RDA, Brembo; pad brands OEM, Hawk, EBC, QFM, Racebrakes. Never had squealing. But have cooked some pads so much they broke off in chunks. Also gouge out a set of Brembo's because the pads were too hard but the car did stop. Have used EBC greens and reds for years and all are fine, they have a chamfered edge and a bedding in compound. Also a soft backing layer on the backing plate where the piston pushes in to create a good indentation, to stop squealing as I understand it to be.
Off topic: on recent brake and bearing replacements, was surprised how cheap EBC pads and Ford parts are compared to others.
I haven't cooked the brakes at all, but it seems they are faintly squealing on occasion towards the end of slow braking. Not sure how I can resolve this particular issue? Surely they shouldn't squeal? I'm pretty sure the rumbling is the gravel tray wobbling underneath on the left side of the car. It's most audible when I go over a bump. Do you reckon this could be the cause of the noise?
The rumbling may be the gravel tray being loose, just get under the car, and see if its hanging down somewhere or if you can grab it and move it by hand, it will need refastening or fixing, do it before it gets anymore damaged.
The brakes are noisy most likely because they are a bit hard and don't have enough friction, the top brands of brake pad have a chamfer on the leading edge of the pad, does your pads have this and what brand of brake do you have?, some brake pads have a shim / spacer between the piston and the brake pad, Colin.
My discs and pads are all genuine Alfa Romeo as far as I'm aware. I also believe they are soft compound pads.
Solution:
Install a sports exhaust.
Turn up volume of your favourite driving music.
I just listen to my V6's rumble and 1026 newsradio. Not kidding.
I had Genuine Alfa Romeo brake pads on my 156 and they didn't make any noise, but they dusted up the rims quickly, the easiest thing to fix, would be the gravel tray, silence that and then think about the brakes.
1026 AM News radio, only for old people, may even put you to sleep, Colin.
I'll have the gravel tray replaced ASAP. I'm genuinely tipped off now, though, because the brakes are squealing! I didn't glaze them, I know that for sure! What can be done to resolve this issue? Would machining them help?
If the gravel tray is broken, then have it repaired or replaced, if it is just loose, fix it, sometimes the nut rivets strip, you can also use large mudgaurd washers to hold the gravel tray on, [like i do].
Take the pads out and give them a deglaze on some rough concrete, in a figure 8, to break the glaze, also chamfer the leading edges of the pads, by rubbing brake pad at 45 degrees to the rough concret, this may help to avoid 'push off', that is the leading edge of the pad pushing away, due to the direction of the rotor travel, and the back part of the pad doing the braking, Colin.
The gravel tray was fine! It turns out that it's just the unlubricated part of the suspension that is making that noise. It's nothing major! It's not making it all the time either! As for the breaks, my mechanic told me that chemicals that are used to clean the tyres/wheels can cause some squealing. The brakes are not glazed and he said once they fully bedded in they should stop squealing. It's a matter of the the residual chemicals fading away.
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All the suspension is unlubricated, grease nipples in front suspensions went out with pushrod engines and rear wheel drive, it is most likely the top control arms are rattling.
You won't be able to tell if they are glazed unless you pull them out, they will appear all shiny with low friction.
Whenever you put in new pads, you should have the rotors machined, but they are so cheap now, put in new ones, so there is no grooves or ridges.
Usually when you put in new pads, you clean up the calipers, and put copperslip on the guide pins for smooth operation, Colin.
I'm stressing out! I don't believe it's the suspension making this rubbing/vibrating noise! I can feel it through the acceleration pedal. It's not when I go over bumps all the time either! May cost a lot to access the right part though! Also the brakes are still squealing! I've done over 1000 kilometres in them. They're also kinda rusty as I hosed them down as per my mechanics advice to try get rid of the so called cleaning chemicals. Not sure what to do!
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Take the car to an Alfa Romeo service provider and find out what is making all the noise, my Magnetti Marrelli brake pads don't make any noise, but dust up the wheels badly, as did the previous Genuine Alfa Romeo pads.
The tops arms usually start knocking around 80,000 - 100,000klms, there are millions for sale on Ebay, Colin.
My car is only about to hit 39,000 kilometres. When I took it last he could not make the car make the sound! Also is there any way I can remove rust?
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The brake rotors and calipers are steel, so they will rust when exposed to water, the rust on the rotors will go after a few brake applications, the calipers are permanently covered in dust, which will stop the caliper rusting anyway.
May need to take it to an Alfa Romeo service provider to trace that noise, but with such low distance covered, the suspension should be ok, some might be loose somewhere, Colin.
Quote from: Quattroporte on January 12, 2014, 04:37:24 PM
My car is only about to hit 39,000 kilometres. When I took it last he could not make the car make the sound! Also is there any way I can remove rust?
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We at Italian Automotive Spares stock Textar brake discs that come with an anti corrosion coating on them (silver), so even if you hose them down, they won't rust like yours have. I know it' s a bit late now, but if you ever need to replace them in the future you have that option.
Also, Col mentioned a general rule of thumb when replacing pads to machine the discs, just make sure the person doing the job machines the complete disc, some of those guys that do disc machining on the car can't always machine the full disc as they're machine has clearance issues, this leaves the disc not fully machined and a lip on it and could be the cause of brake squealing as well.
Seen it a couple of times and the machining guy can't do anything about it as the machine won't fully fit in the wheel well to machine it all. So you're left with either a non fully machined disc(may cause squealing), or you have to take the disc off the car and send it away to get machined, thus costing you more than just replacing the discs with a new ones. Just so it's done correctly.
Quote from: Craig_m67 on January 04, 2014, 12:25:38 PM
We didn't bother putting the undertray back on mine after redoing the front wishbones/links and ARB. That was five years ago, no drama or noticeable difference other than the benefit of being able to reach and change the oil filter more easily !
I'd highly recommend to other owners to leave the under tray on as long as it is still serviceable.
Regarding the squeaking pads - and apologies if you know this already - if you take them out and lightly chamfer the leading edge (the edge the disc feeds into when travelling forwards) it can stop the squealing. I tend to do this on any new pads I fit these days.. it's only a 3-5mm chamfer we're talking.
I think most modern car pads come with an anti-squeal backing on them already - but a little of that orange stop-squeal you can get from repco/bursons/autobarn smeared on the back of the pads and let tack dry works wonders as well.
Cheers,
Scott.
Quote from: Choderboy on January 13, 2014, 10:34:12 AM
Quote from: Craig_m67 on January 04, 2014, 12:25:38 PM
We didn't bother putting the undertray back on mine after redoing the front wishbones/links and ARB. That was five years ago, no drama or noticeable difference other than the benefit of being able to reach and change the oil filter more easily !
I'd highly recommend to other owners to leave the under tray on as long as it is still serviceable.
Why?
And you put a chamfer on the leading edge by rubbing on rough concrete, not be grinding, as you don't want to be creating dust, except for jallopys from Great Wall, all brake pads are free of dangerous stuff that use to be made by Hardie Ferodo and co.
You can use that brake quite silicone, some manufacturers use a shim behind the brake pad.
Leave the undertray on as it will catch all oil and coolant leaks and make them easier to find, Colin.
Quote from: Craig_m67 on January 14, 2014, 12:29:10 AM
Quote from: Choderboy on January 13, 2014, 10:34:12 AM
Quote from: Craig_m67 on January 04, 2014, 12:25:38 PM
We didn't bother putting the undertray back on mine after redoing the front wishbones/links and ARB. That was five years ago, no drama or noticeable difference other than the benefit of being able to reach and change the oil filter more easily !
I'd highly recommend to other owners to leave the under tray on as long as it is still serviceable.
Why?
So when you hit a fucking rock or whatever debris is on the road, it doesn't either damage your oil cooler lines on a V6, or puncture your oil filter on a Tspark.
You're welcome.
And you will keep your engine cleaner, avoiding crap being thrown up when it rains, if it wasn't needed, Alfa would have left it off, in this world where accountants are more important than engineers, they have been known to make bolts 1mm shorter to save money, over production of hundreds of thousands of cars, all adds up, Colin.