Hi gang.
After many years of admiring from afar, but being too chicken shit to own anything other than made in Japan, i pulled the trigger and flew to Melbourne to buy sight unseen an 1981 Alfa Romeo GTV2.0 for my sins.
In all my years of owning various cars and motor bikes and thinking i knew what it was to really enjoy a drive, i now know how truly wrong i was. I LOVE this car. Have had it for 3 weeks and get a huge grin every time i see the thing parked, never mind get behind the wheel and actually chuck it into a corner!
Yes, it leaks oil out and water in, yes the electrics do interesting things, like occasionally turning on as expected, bizzare things like that, but i've never loved a car like i do this one.
So, previous owner, though furiously denying it was him, put on a massive cannon exhaust, and a huge airbox with a filter that is pure mesh, looking through it, well, if blind people could see that well seeing eye dogs would be a dying breed. Suffice it to say, its got no top end to speak of. Pretty sure these brilliant mods have destroyed any and all performance this car is capable of.
So far, have been concentrating on mechanicals, front suspension (steering rod ends, ball joints, etc.) oils, clutch fluid, brake fluid and stripping away ubiquitous subs, amps, 6x9 speakers, et al.
Gearbox oil was grey gloopy sludge, doubt it had ever been done (car shows 59,500k's, dont know how to take that.), it smelt like the secretions from Satans anal glands, if Satan was lactose intolerant, had eaten a cheese cake and sat on it for around 2-3 millennia. will leave the new oil in there another few weeks then replace again, oil change+flush done. Already shifts super smooth.
Next is get proper air filter, replace the cat swallowing rear cannon with a pretty dual exhaust system that doesn't wake up the neighbours across the tasman and might provide a little back pressure. After that, get the carbs tuned and then get the 2 rust spots sorted (Drivers A pillar and C pillar, reset the windscreen, previous yahoo that did it left lots of gaps and bumps in the sealant/rubber, allowing water in).
So, a project. I'll be buggin you all for as much experience as you can shed my way.
Lastly, want to A/C the bugger. Won't be putting in the York compressor, looks huge and heard it does nothing, I have hoses and condenser already, looking for alternative compressor that i'll mock up a custom mount for, thoughts?
Like!
The four cylinder Alfetta GTVs seem to be quite undervalued at the moment, especially with plastic bumpers. If I had space I'd love to snaffle one up. Yours looks very nice.
Where are you? Make sure to join your local club division and get out there for a drive or rally...
Hi, great car to start with! I'm a newbie on the forum myself but not new to these cars.
First you will find them wonderfully balanced and well-mannered alfas. I believe it is one of the most under-appreciated cars of all times, also one of the best designs of all times. About the A/C compressor the original is an old-fasioned vertical piston "YORK" type, which was used also in Volvos and some trucks. It is a reliable piece but even when new it doesn't cool very well.
Your best choice would seem to convert to an Alfa 75 setup, if you can find one. It is much better with a proper bracket in cast aluminum as opposed to the heavy metal one on the Alfetta GTV, and the compressor is a much more modern unit. The maker eludes me (perhaps 'Sanden', I'm not sure). The bracket does bolt on but you will need to change the accessory belt and some peripherals and hoses, but it's not difficult.
Good luck with your new acquistion and safe driving...
Whoops,
Forgot to say, Sydney NSW,
And yep, at $2,400 very very cheap motoring.
Sanden A/C units. Roger. Will try to keep an eye out for an Alfa 75 being wrecked.
If i want a new compressor, would it be a big ask fabricating an Aluminium mount?
Not fond of trusting to 20 year old compressors.
Thanks for the tip either way.
Hi Nate, welcome to the nut house.... ;)
There is an Alfetta AC comp and bracket currently on offer in the classifieds section.
My first Alfa was a '79 GTV I bought back in '84. Loved it for the full 14 years it was my daily driver, and still love it now, wherever it is..... My car already had a rotary compressor on it when I bought it, and after it seized the A/C mechanic had no trouble fitting a generic Sanden (or was it a Denso??) compressor to the original bracketry. Just be aware that no matter how good the compressor is it's the poor airflow and large glass area that results in minimal cooling effect. However, the A/C is great to keep the glass mist-free inside.
Was your car airconditioned originally? Or will you need to plumb in everything behind the dash? If you are only missing stuff from the engine bay, it will be simple, if not.....it won't.....
Bite the bullet, pull that screen, and fix the rust NOW. Then get stuck into the whole car with rustproofer. Left unattended, A-pillar rust will spell the death knell of yet another Alfetta coupe, and that's sad.
Years ago I cut up an Alfetta sedan. Not exactly the same as the coupe, but close enough to give you an idea of the skeleton, and where to squirt in the rustproofer: http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/car-restoration/14822-alfetta-sill-cut.html
Waiting on the panel beater to finish with my Mazda 6, (its there thanks to an awfully careful driver pulling out of a parking spot as i drove sedately by, thx a$$h0le, thx.).
Then swapping cars, windscreen out, Pillars fixed and rust proofed. I don't know if it had aircon originally to be honest.
Batterys in the front and no long bolts on front of crankcase so probably not. However, the heater box under the dash has got the Aircon fittings sticking out of it, (can see them when sticking head under dash) 2 on the left hand side and haven't checked the right side yet but assuming its the correct unit with condesnor intact, lucky break. Have a set of hoses and front radiator/condensor thingy, will be sticking all that in myself and let aircon dude simply plumb them all in with new seals for modern gas.
Bracket and compressor is what I'm shy of.
Think i asked after that one in the classified section, will trawl through again.
Thanks for the advice, as far as fighting me goes has been relatively painless experience so far, proved fairly easy to work on. Rust then aircon are next on agenda.
Another tip when you get to remedying the exhaust, is to have the pipe joints made FLANGE joins rather than slip joins. You'll thank me when it comes to pulling the exhaust off to get to the propshaft......... :o
Oh, and I honestly wouldn't go to the trouble of a twin system on the 2L. Pipe routing is tight as it is and running twin tubes will probably have the exhaust hitting the floor or rear axle somewhere.
If your car had A/C there will be a switch/dial on the dash.
Does your car have the earlier split-instrument dash or the later style with all dials in front of the driver?
Split dash, Speedo in line of sight, (which only goes up to 100kph then jams :) )
Then on the left tacho plus other dials...
Bellow that is the air control module (int ext blue )
Bellow that is a dual knob stack, top one is fan speed, bottom one is heat regulator
Am i in luck?
Didn't mean a dual system :)
Meant a small dual tip to a normal muffler as opposed to the silly cannon mounted now.
It's been a while..... but I believe the lower of the two dials is the A/C switch. It's surrounded by a blue/orange band and you should hear a click when it's wound fully counterclockwise.
Hot/Cold heater tap control is via one of the slide levers, the other slider should be int/ext air (i.e. recirc).
On my '79 the tacho and speedo needles swung in perfect unison in top gear. So in 5th you can accurately guesstimate road speed by looking at the tacho. I guess these days a GPS is the tool of choice.
Thats right.
Bottom dial has orange blue surround.
Don't remember if it clicks in, will check tonight.
Does that mean it used to be A/C?
Yep, would have been optioned with AC (most/all were). So you should only require the engine bay components, then flush / new seals / new Tx valve).
Dash is easy to remove so if you feel up to the task, I'd discuss things with the A/C mechanic, then pull the dash yourself so you can get easy access, replace all the heater hoses and the tap if you can source a new one. Clean any crud out of the heater box etc.
From memory, you should be able to remove the dash/instruments leaving the heater box/lower dash section in place (probably still need to loosen it), so you can still operate all the heater and A/C controls with the dash out.
Dash out will help with cleaning up that windscreen too.
Might be best to take this conversation over to the 116 section. You'll get responses from those more current on these cars, and maybe some pretty pictures!!!
What I forgot to mention is that the 75 has an original factory bracket for the peripherals, it bolts on the two front plugs of the engine-head if I remember correctly, so you can just use that.
Nice car, you beat me to it.. kinda.. my wife said no :( apparently 1 GTV is enough..
my garage said no too.. and my bank balance.. I was up against it..
I swear that you've got the elusive Strada..
and like PB said, the AC's are next to useless in the 116.. save the weight and the expense, buy yourself a good windscreen shield for when parked and wind down a window or 2 when driving.. I am sure the 116's go faster with the windows down anyway ;) they certainly sound faster..
make sure the heater works tho.. helps for both foggy conditions(inside) and engine overheating issues(another reason for driving with windows down in the height of summer)..
Nate - I have replied to your PM on the aircon. Did someone else put their hand up? Can't say that rings a bell. I'm overseas at the moment so a little slow getting to my personal mail.
I'm a dissenter on the a/c on these cars though. I say it works OK on cars with light coloured interior but useless on black interiors. Not that it couldn't have been designed to work properly - many years ago one of my mates had a Red Alfetta GT with black vinyl interior and aftermarket A/C under the passengers dash. Froze the proverbials off anyone within 5 metres of it. But I do agree the factory system does help with humidity which these cars suffer badly from.
Thanks guys! Right friendly bunch :)
Am thinking of making it into a project, maybe figure out a way of sticking a better alternator in there, fix the lighting, after market radiator fan, maybe it'll allow me enough current to get a modern electric compressor going.
Maybe make a working aircon.
Come to forums to learn not preach, if you all think it's unlikely to be effective or work then i might give up on the idea.
Not sure sourcing bracketry from a 75 will work. We only got the V6 and TS engines and I suspect the bracket mounting positions of the TS differ from the old Nord 2L.
If you truly wish to have decent aircon, you need to direct your attention to airFLOW. The factory A/C certainly gets cold enough when measured at the vent outlet, it's just that there is precious little transfer of air volume to cool the interior.
BTW, US GTV6s had a tropical air option with an additional aircon above the passengers feet.
Hmm..
Ok, Thats a handy tip,
So a kick ass internal fan might help the cause more so then going nuts with the compressor, will see what can be done.
shouldn't be too hard to pull apart.
(famous last words)
easy to pull apart.. difficult to retrofit a new fan tho.. wait til you see the barrel fan in it.. you can clean it and lube it and help it out a bit(prob even relay it), reseal the aircon/heater box with new foam etc.. usually the tubes between the fan unit and the windscreen vents are perished however you can actually buy them on ebay surprisingly cheap.. I made some out of foam tube and cable ties thinking the tubes weren't available..
to remove the heater aircon, expect to remove everything including some skin from the back of your hands.. start with the centre console and work your way up.. if you haven't got one, get yourself the Haynes manual for the alfettas.. has step by step instructions for most jobs on the car.. a bible.. it's blue and has a pic of the sedan on the front.
You would stand more chance of success by ripping the whole heater box out (and saving it for posterity) and completely re-designing the system, the ducting, vents and controls etc etc. In fact it would likely be easier to remove the whole dash and include that into a re-design. At least the instruments themselves would be pretty easy to reinstall into a completely redesigned dash (I'd love to do the same to my 90, but instrumentation is much more complex). Manual (cable) controls could be replaced by vacuum actuated controls, which might give you more options in the limited space available, but add complexity.
Some of the Aussie dealer-fitted units had a HVAC console which extends further into the cabin, so it's not without precedent.
First thing you'd be looking at would be a decent (quiet & powerful) Japanese fan. I've looked at the fan in my 80 series Landcruiser and reckon it might be a good candidate as it seems to be a separate entity and not wholly integrated into the dash.
Then you need to incorporate more dash vents, decent feet vents, decent screen vents, and have them closeable (the later coupes used closeable flaps for the screen vents as these are always open on earlier cars). Note the outer eyeball vents on a 116 coupe are only open to fresh air.
I caution against using convoluted/ribbed ducting where at all possible as it really does slow airflow. Smooth ducting is much better, if not easy or practical.
There are a few Alfisti who have redesigned the HVAC system, but I'm not sure how successful they've been, nor how costly the exercise.
The Alfa 90 and 75 had better setups (more vents open to conditioned air) but they are still dismal.
Go the whole hog and remove the engine, drop a Monty V8 in where the back seats are, and fill the bonnet area with an aircon system....... 8)
Oh, when Ebaying for a Haynes manual, make sure you get the Euro/Aussie version. There is a separate US version available. Pretty sure the US (LHD/Spica FI) version uses the term Sports Sedan in the title (the US name for the Alfetta sedan).
When you have the console out, consider taking the opportunity to install decent thermal/sound proofing, even just a double layer of aftermarket automotive underfelt, all the way up the firewall. It will help keep some heat out of the cabin.
Also ensure the rubber boot around the base of the gearlever (underneath the sock you can see from the drivers seat) is in tact. If these get holed they allow hot air straight off the exhaust to come up into the cabin, particularly when you have a window open. I've actually burnt my left knee on the lever on a long drive..... (longer lever in steel bumper car). After I made up a double skinned diaphragm the heat flow was all but eliminated.
Welcome Nate Dog! Agree with some of the earlier posts the 116 is very under-rated and will give you endless hours of driving enjoyment! I'm in the process of getting my 116 back on the road and the journey has been very enjoyable and I've learned heaps doing small bits myself along the way. I decided to remove the whole A/C system as this will be a weekend car only and thought the old system was useless anyway so it's nice to free up some weight and tidy up the engine bay at the same time. There's some great threads on the forum advising of some very useful upgrades that you can make to these cars - check them out in the 116 section (in particular the head light upgrade is a must!) Be sure to add pics of your progress along the way!
Thanks Gang.
Will do.
Cars off to the panel beaters this monday to fix the rust spots.
Will take the aircon under advisement. Not quiet going to be a daily nor just a weekend warrior, somewhere in between so would like A/C, at least in some fashion.
Headlight upgrade will commence on return from Panel beaters, followed by uprating the alternator.
Will see what project i feel like tackling after that.
In all honesty, i've never had so much fun working on a car or half as much fun driving it :)
Will try and document steps on the way as i go.
Any members in Sydney that go on drives let me know.
Haven't done the old pacific highway on anything other than a bike but keen as mustard to take this bad boy down there!
Cheers guys, See you in the world.
Nate, being in Sydney makes the price of membership to AROCA NSW great value. They do plenty of drives around the place. http://www.alfaclubnsw.org.au/membership/index.html
Hello Doggy ;D
Alfetta projects is what life is all about. Good luck with yours. Your enthusiasm is jumping of these pages. Congrats.
Here is my contribution to you air con. upgrade. It consists of a custom rack that relocates the (Commodore 85amp) alternator as well as repositions the rotary Denso compressor. You will notice that it also incorporates a Toyota idler tensioner to make belt tensioning a breeze.
Disregard the additional belt as this is for a power steering conversion done on this Alfetta sedan.
A few more for clarity..
Paul, those section cut ups you did and posting the photos is pure gold mate.
You can come out of the corner now, take that goofey cone hat off your head and go straight to the top of the class. All is forgiven. ;D ;D
I still have a few of the cut sections in the shed. They come out as training aides every few years :D
Nice work on the AC on that Alfetta too. How do you tension the belt running from crankshaft to AC compressor?
Yeah, there is a huge story with the full treatment to make Alfetta chill your silverware off. ;D
The compressor belt is selected as a very close match and subsequently, there is a slide fixing in the mount itself which finally tensions it. Once tight, the adjustment nuts are locked up.
Wow,
Away a couple of days and come back to GOLD.
Dissecting pics now...
Went camping on the weekend, didn't get my work on my Alfa fix. Argh.
At the panel beaters getting rust cut out and sections resprayed. Hopefully won't break the bank.
Made an offer on a denso compressor and mireli (i think) alternator off a 156.
Good direction or am i barking up the wrong tree?
MD
After careful study of your mount, i've come to the conclusion that,
That is an engineering tour de force
Stretching the bounds of friendship i know, but i don't suppose you've got a rough template of that mount you've made do you?
Even a hand drawn sketch with rough dimensions would be a great starting point.
Think it's a fantastic idea to mount them on the same side, i'll definitely be stealing that idea :)
If not all good, worst case scenario i'll try and mock up something rough out of wood that i can take to a metal workshop and ask them to make for me out of Aluminium.
Regardless, I'm very grateful, was somewhat worried that this might be a very big ask.
Looks like it'll be fairly cut and dry.
Couple of problems. One, I no longer own that car. Two, I made it up as I went along with trial and error- no nice tech drawings I am afraid.
Not all is lost.
Here are the basics:
The mount is a 6mm channel that fixes at the bottom where the alternator usually mounts.
The top fixes where the air-con. usually hangs off.
In between, projection tags hold the alternator and compressor in place.
The alternator uses from memory a 164 mount that enables a limited amount of movement to tension belt.
A separate Jap tensioner is used to tension the alternator belt.
Some cautions:
Not just any compressor will do. You will note this one has rear connections. Otherwise the connections will foul the alternator above it.
If you use a different alternator with different mounts, you will need to make the appropriate changes to suit.
A timber dummy up is definitely the way to go. In my case I had the bracket zinc plated but you could just paint it.
Do allow for a new condensor, new hoses and above all, try to install at least the heater box from a 75 together with it evaporator unit. Clean it all up first inside first and be sure the fan works.
Be warned this is a MAJOR undertaking and will require you to spend a lot more time and bucks than you anticipate.
Driveline, gear change and brake issues on the GTV pale into insignificant when trying to make a proper air conditioner for this car.
Drive line, Clutch and brakes have all been a piece of piss.
This is the big daddy.
I intend to have it as a daily, of sorts anyway, but will need A/C.
Headlight upgrade too but again, that looks very straight forward for me to do.
Will only do headlight upgrade after this as alternator will change locations during this upgrade.
Hoses yep, will need to be re made. Heater box from a 75 will work better?
Wonder how easy that'll be to source :/
If i go to the trouble of replacing the heater box/evaporator i'll rebuild it before it goes in. 0 point doing all that work for a crappy result.
Budget for aircon now stands at around $1500. (none spent yet but will start forking out soon)
I've got the Condensor from a donner GTV. Will that not do? Hoses too (in good condition).
Can understand the moisture unit and hoses being replaced, but why the condenser?
Looking at my list $1500 might not cut the mustard.
OK.
75 heater box sourced and hopefully on the way.
Nate Dog,
Appreciate your enthusiasm as I said before but it seems to me you are doing this at a break neck pace. You need to take a lot more quiet suck it and see approach because a lot of this stuff is all custom fit and you need to work out just how to make it all come together.
For instance the way the 75 evaporator box and fans work is much better than the early Alfetta stuff. HOWEVER, it will need customisation to make it fit and work. Your centre console for a start is going to be an issue.
Take it one step at a time and you will get through it. I cannot stress that enough.
Nate, ditto to everything MD has said (particularly the bit where he makes stuff up as he goes along............... ;D)
For what it's worth, I'd be using a more common alternator than the 156. From memory the E-series Falcon alternator is the same basic unit as used on the same series Commodores, so support and spares are readily and cheaply available. Also, you can get the same alternator body (Bosch) with 120amp innards.
When I did an engine swap on a Landcruiser I found the factory NipponDenso compressor to be extremely versatile. They basically come in about three different capacity core units which are physically different sizes (length), but the nose casting, pulley/magnets, and rear castings are all interswappable. So once I'd made the brackets up, a trip to the wrecker got me a selection of rear casings with different hose connection orientations I mucked about with until I found a configuration that suited best.
Consider access. It's often possible to arrange things so you can disconnect the aircon comp and move it out of the way without needing to de-gas the system. So make sure you think and design in four dimensions.
Belt wrap: CRITICAL that the belt wraps sufficiently around the aircon pulley. It's under significant load and will slip if the wrap is inadequate, particularly when wet.
Thanks guys.
I do tend to leap ahead.
75 bits and pieces fell into my lap for next to nix (thx gumtree). Found one of you loons in NSW thats happy to sell me the heating unit for $50 so happy to drop that just to see how it goes :)
He's offering me all the other bits and pieces off his car, hence the Alfa 75 compatibility questions.
Nice enough guy and asking very little money so happy to spread the good Karma.
Good idea re using a more common alternator. A/C compressor i'll still need to look for. Probably want something off a newer car.
Biggest step forward for me is the mounting bracket. Once i can have something like that mocked up i can at least shift alternator, allowing other projects to proceed at their own pace (A/C, headlights, electrics, etc..)
I do leap ahead its true.. Full time job in IT means i spend the week planning and weekend trying to fit as much tool time in as i can. Between weekend work anyway. I'm also single right now but that never lasts long and when its gone i lose any free time i normally have :) Hence the manic rush to do as much as possible as quickly as i can.
Again, I really do appreciate the great advice and rapid responses.
This weekends jobs will be fixing holes in exhaust and replacing huge muffler with something a little quieter as well as replacing radiator fan with something a little more modern and thinner, which brings me to my question...
How much current does the factory fan draw?
Am asking as im thinking of replacing it with 2 side by side and am wondering will i be overloading the existing loom?
The replacements look to draw around 6 amps a piece.
Thoughts?
Stupid?
Waste of time?
Will again post up pics before and after.
I owned a stock Alfetta for years in Katherine NT, never had a cooling problem. Likewise driving Sydney city in summer. So unless you are running the car on the track, the factory setup or a similar fan should do fine if the rest of the cooling system is serviceable.
An aftermarket fan would be well down my list of priorities on an Alfetta, but if you do go that route, heavier wiring would be prudent, particularly given the age of the OEM wiring.
Note that The airconditioned cars usually had an additional fan in front of the condensor. Some would add circuitry to enable manual engagement of that fan, even with the A/C turned off.
I'm also not convinced that two smaller fans will give the same volumetric airflow, or cover the same area of the radiator face, as one larger fan. If you truly want to increase the efficiency, put some effort into a properly shrouded rad and fan. Shrouding ensures as much air as possible is drawn through the rad, that the air is drawn more evenly across the entire surface area of the rad, and minimises the recirculation of engine bay air through the fan (pure waste).
Get yourself a test meter (under $20.00). It'll come in handy.
Geez Paul. I am sure you went to the same reform school as me. ;D
Mr Barker. ;D Your combined original fans should not be pulling more than 18 amps .
With a bit of craftsmanship, it is possible to fit a single Commodore shrouded fan hard up against the fins. You should use some door cushion rubber fixed to the shroud edge so that the soft rubber takes up any minor irregularities. This will ensure that the fans pull air only through the radiator and no short circuiting occurs.
Try to fit your future air con. fan infront of the condensor using the same techniques.
OK,
Exhaust done,
Centre muffler was leaking fumes, pipe was rusted through, above the transaxle, and previous owner put on this huge hotdog, 3".
Looked awful, revolting drone, and silly loud.
Labrose on Flinders street, Sydney, Taylor Square.
$800, Stainless steel, Cat back, very pretty.
Couldn't find any pics from before the change.
But here it is now.
Some more
Last muffler recessed a bit, previous one had been scraping...
CAT BACK :o!! :o!! :o Wash your mouth out Nate. Alfetta owners don't use such language....................
you know what i mean :)
(says nate through a mouth frothing with soap suds)
::)
From the first resonator back