Hello in need of some advice,
I purchased a 3l motor on impulse from an Alfa 75 last year and have been saving my pennies to get it fitted and I have almost reached my target. My main reason for purchase was in search of not only more power but more liveliness off the mark. I'm no hoon by any stretch of the margin but I just want the GTV6 to drive as beautiful as it looks and 30years have past and the body and shape seem timeless but the power is starting to show its age.
My dilemma is that I took an ALFA GIULIETTA QV for a test drive and boy what a car! so Zippy and Lively. I couldn't believe how fast it was and it handled to me great around corners for a front wheel drive car I was literally blown away. Now don't get me wrong I don't expect my old GTV6 to be in the same league but it has put the doubts in my head about spending the money on my car in search for the holy grail when the GIULIETTA QV is almost there for me (Looks beautiful and has the performance to match).
My other dilemma is that my GTV6 is also a Grand Prix edition and I'm also having second thoughts of modifying it however I would be keeping the original motor. So thoughts and advice please is the 3L upgrade in a GTV6 really worth it? Is the performance significant? Does it breathe life into the car and give it the vigour of modern cars? Should I modify the Grand Prix or keep it original? All these questions are bouncing around in my head and I need some clarity from people who love these cars more than me and had the experience of this upgrade. Or is the answer selling my car and buying the GIULIETTA QV please help.
Thanks in advance :-\
The answer to your dilemma is - it depends. What did you buy your gtv6 for? Do those reasons still hold true? I bought mine as a divorce present to myself with a promise to myself to some of the stuff I have always wanted to do. I am in the process of doing what you are asking about. Except one of the things I wanted was to do the bulk of the work myself. The car brings a smile to my face. Always. And my family accept that I won't sell it. Sure you can get cars that look good, go faster, rust less, more reliable etc. But what do you want from your car? The 3.0 will by all accounts make for a solid perfoing car. But there are still cars out there that are faster, handle better etc. But I don't care one bit. What do you care about?
Yeah, the 3 litre will deliver a reasonable torque gain, but what should give a very noticeable gain, is too have the flywheels lightened.
These things have soooooooo much rotating mass and getting rid of as much as you can will help them accelerate, especially in the lower gears.
And before anyone gets concerned about stalling the thing when driving away from a standing start on a hill, remember that these things have 2 flywheels and a tailshaft that is constantly attached to the engine. You'd be hard pressed to get the rotating mass down to that of a run of the mill RWD car.
There are front wheel drive cars. Rear wheel drive cars and then there are transaxles. They all drive differently. It sounds to me that you haven't driven enough Alfas to know their characteristics and thereby haven't formed a preference. Perhaps you need to think that through before deciding on anything.
There have been rear wheel drive F1 Alfas. Transaxle F1 Alfas but never a front wheel drive F1 Alfa. Why is that?
In any case, if you spend the same amount of money on modifying and restoring a GTV6 as you would spend on the Giuliette QV, you would have yourself a good comparison.
If the GTV6 GP is in very good/excellent condition, then I wouldn't touch it. There aren't too many original GTV6s around, and as the last of the series, they will become more valuable. Keep it original! However, if the GTV6 GP is in ordinary condition, then of course a 3Lt upgrade is a good option.
Then if the pennies add up, get the Giulietta QV as your daily car and keep the GTV6 GP for the weekend. ;D ;D
I agree with the others here - decide what it is that pushes your buttons and let that lead your decision. But, your preferences should be determined by driving, not by the preconceived biases of others or any mildly amusing comparisons between road cars and F1 cars.
To me the biggest philosophical difference here isn't FWD v RWD, or 'real' Alfa v 'Fiat', but modern v historic. Do what you will to a GTV6 and it will still be an old car, for all the good and bad that insinuates. Equally, a new Giulietta will always lack qualities inherent with a car from the GTV6's era. What's right for you is exactly that, and anyone else's opinion really doesn't mean jack...
Or you could just go with Victor's suggestion and have one of each ...
I reckon leave the GTV6 GP alone. Get in and drive it, often and lots. You don't get to really know a car until you've spent a long time in it and anyone who thinks a GTV6 doesn't have enough power either isn't driving it hard enough or will never be satisfied with any amount of horsepower. You can always substitute HP with RPM......
I spent a lot of years thrashing my original Alfetta GTV. It never needed any more power to be an absolute ball of (safe) fun.
I didn't spend a lot of quality time in the GTV6 (not many corners in the Top End) but never found it lacking, though it did feel a little more 'porky' than the Alfetta.
The trick is to change up a gear and strive to maintain the same RPMs in the same situations (e.g. maintain higher entry/exit/corner speeds) :D. That way you have to rely on more than the right foot and grip to hurry carefully.
Me, I fall in the 3L swap camp unless the GP is a genuine original car in great condition, then I'd lean towards leaving it as is. But if not, the difference is chalk and cheese and I do agree that a lightened flywheel is a great extra, as is a set of headers from Vin Sharp or similar. It really makes the car get up and sing; when you drive a standard 2.5 after that you wonder why it doesn't go!
Sadly you will also then want a Twin Spark gearbox to sort out the ratios and gain a LSD. And some beefier torsion bars and rear springs to hold it down. But then you have a really great car.......:)
I agree with Aggie57
I put a 3 litre in my GTV V6 84
What a difference
Only downfall is the 1st gear ratio.
I will in the near future put twin spark gearbox ratios in it as I have done for a few customers.
The twin spark gear ratios give 1st gear longer legs and makes it more enjoyable,especially on take off from the lights.
The difference between a 2.5 and a 3 litre is amazing.
Amazing enough,that modifying the 3 litre engine is not a priority cause it goes fast enough.
GTV V6 3.0 with a twin spark gearbox is the way to go.
Suspension upgrade also,but the more you want it to handle= the more comfort you lose.
Usually after a great drive,I store the car for 6 months= too much fun,,and I need to keep my licence.
Robert
Thank you for your advice guys and to answer your question martym00se72 why did I buy my gtv6 thinking about this has helped rekindle the lover affair I have with the model. I still remember being a teenager and dreaming of owning a gtv6 and every time I was in the car with my Dad growing up and I saw one on the road I told him, "Look at that Dad there's my dream car." Sitting in it is a like a time capsule to my past it's as if the car and I have an unmistakable connection. That being said we do have a love hate relationship when it lets me down and something electrical decides not to work or a clip or lever breaks off in my hand.
My biggest concern is that I'm a perfectionist and I fear that I'm always going to be chasing that little bit more out of the car i.e.: Twin Spark gearbox removing of some rust and the like and the dollar signs will just keep rolling up and up and before you know it a more modern sports car price tag doesn't seem that high. That brings me then to L4OMEO's question of preference of Modern V Historic and I think I shouldn't make my decision on monetary values as how can you put a price on feelings and memories (to some extent).
Therefore I think I will drive my car for the rest of the week and see if there is still fire in the belly and go from there. I am leaning to doing the 3L upgrade just hoping if I go that way it is as good as everyone states.
To give you some idea of the torque in a 3L, I can start in third gear (on the flat, of course) in mine.
It does run a 90 transaxle though, which has different gearing from the GTV6s.
(It has that as I got the car without engine or trans, so I used what I had lying around.)
Any time I take it for a drive, I do end up with a big smile on my face and I've got a bit of a fleet to choose from, 4cyl GTV, GTV6, 105 Coupe, 90 sedan, (also with a 3L) and another 90 converted to automatic.
Remember, Always Looking For Another.
Steve
Adelaide
I forgot to mention all the good comments about how well the car drives with a 3L is really helping so keeping writting them in please ;D
Quote from: four90s on May 28, 2013, 10:37:02 AM
To give you some idea of the torque in a 3L, I can start in third gear (on the flat, of course) in mine.
It does run a 90 transaxle though, which has different gearing from the GTV6s.
(It has that as I got the car without engine or trans, so I used what I had lying around.)
Any time I take it for a drive, I do end up with a big smile on my face and I've got a bit of a fleet to choose from, 4cyl GTV, GTV6, 105 Coupe, 90 sedan, (also with a 3L) and another 90 converted to automatic.
Remember, Always Looking For Another.
Steve
Adelaide
Steve - interested in your last mentioned car, the auto 90. What system did you install, the 75 one?
Yes, straight out of a 75. The 75 had been snotted in the front and had sat at the crash repairers for about 18 months. I got it for $400.
As they are both transaxle cars, everything just bolts up. I used the front trans mounts off the auto, as they are lower 'cause the bell housing on the auto is larger for the torque converter. I also added a larger trans cooler, which took a bit of fiddling, but it mounted in front of the a/c condenser fine.
As the 90s have an extra fan for the a/c, I used two of those mounting bolts as a spot to add the cooler.
I had to enlarge the opening in the tunnel for the selector, but no other cutting was required. The selector cover fits in the 90 console with a bit scraped off the sides. I even made a correct colour cover for the selector. (The 75 had the red instruments, whereas the 90 has green)
With the help of a mate, who is the electrical wizz, I then added a starter relay, connected to the selector cutout switch and a feed and light for the level indicator.
I didn't put the self-levelling in, as the 90s seem to sit a bit higher than the 75s (15" wheels as std) and it had been removed from the 75.
The 90 was a Super (analogue dash) and I think that helped with the speedo, although I had to put in a different sender, as the autos use the tachogenerator sender and all of the manuals (I think) use a Hall effect sender. The sender I used was out of either a late Giulietta or a 2.0L GTV.
Unfortunately, the car is now on the "To be scrapped" list, as it has really bad rust in the underneath of the plenum and fills up when it rains.
The car went quite well and can be driven "manually". And even gets reasonable mileage. I was holding it in the gears and revving to the redline on our 2011 economy run and still got better milage than another member driving a 166.
Happy to help with any other questions.
Cheers
Steve Adelaide.
Very cool - thanks for the info.
I had an auto 75 in the late nineties (which incidently got written off by the subsequent owner also with a "snott in the front" after he drove into the back of a roof that had fallen off a truck on the Westgate Bridge....) and it was a really good car.
What I always wondered was whether you could convert it to a 4-speed auto, and maybe swap in a 3-litre. Always figured that would have made a good car great.
And apologies to gtvsix86 for hijacking your thread. That happens on the forum :)
I
Quoteforgot to mention all the good comments about how well the car drives with a 3L is really helping so keeping writting them in please ;D
I own a 12v 3 litre powered GTV6. It has been extensively modified but the engine if essentially standard. The mechanical modifications were made to cope well with the extra power provided by the 3 litre engine.
If I can do it, I will try to verbally convey what the conversion is like.
I have had both 105 and 116 cars in the past all them being of 2 litre capacity. In standard form, the 105 coupe is quicker than the 116 coupe as it is both lighter and the motor develops a little more power. (Not going to discuss modifications here because that will just ad to the confusion)
As for the 2.5V6, I have driven these as well. This is a very nice engine producing noticeably more power than its 2 litre cousin. However, the power increase over the 2 litre 4 engine is not dramatic and neither is the performance. Nevertheless, it is a sensible package given its suspension, brakes and gearing.
Now the installation of the 3 litre 12v engine does make a dramatic difference in power and acceleration. The difference is really noticeable in the upper gears because the engine has the grunt to overcome the increasing drag. It transforms the car into a contemporary sports car performer.
However, (and this must be one of your major considerations) only a fool would just increase power and disregard the totality of the chassis needs. If you decide to do this, your budget must cover all associated upgrades not only to make use of the power but do justice to it in the transaxle tradition in safety and performance.
Otherwise make good all that is needed on your current car and restore it to its former glory. A professionally restored vehicle is always well sought after should you ever decide to sell it. Knowing what I know now,that's what I would do but instead of fitting a 3 litre engine, I would keep the original one and supercharge it. That conversion would produce considerably more power than the naturally aspirated 3 litre and you would have the added charm of using that glorious little v6.
Md what would you suggest for the other upgrades? (im always interested in advice from peole who have learnt from their mistakes) because your thoughts on spending my money in restoring what I already have is also another option I have been toying with
Ooh, that depends on how deep your pockets are and what amount of passion you have for your GTV6. In my case, I spent $45 000 to restore and re-engineer my car to not only look like new but better than it ever was original using better materials and configurations to make this car deliver on what the looks might suggest that it could deliver, and it does. I got an Excel spredsheet on all the work done to it so it really isn't practical to list that here. That might seem like a lot of money but would I swap it for a new front wheel drive GTV? Only if you cut the right leg off first. **
To give you some more ideas, here are a few that you could think of to do and yet keep it "sort of original" of course, the purists would not agree but the sporting minded would immediately say, oooh yeah!!
The engine. The V6 is a brilliant engine in all its forms-front or rear drive. Smooth and revv happy. Makes lots of torque to the point of breaking gearboxes if you want. So if you want to use your original engine, you could increase the bore size to 2.8litres, reconfigure compressions, camshafts, valve sizes, injectors etc and better internals and take the revv limit 2 000 rmp higher and you will have a naturally aspirated totally original looking howler.
Couple that to an improved transaxle like the one from a twin spark 75 plus a better driveshaft, lightended flywheels at both ends, revised suspension, bigger rotors and calipers ( preferably mounted out side at the rear), better radiator, alternator and so on. The detailed list gets quite long.
In terms of creature comforts, the air conditioning is impossible to make efficient in its original form. I spent
$2 500 completely redesigning the entire system including fitting inside dashboard ducting like modern cars have, Finally you have to do something radical as well to reduce the heat load. This requires a transparent air curtain behind the front seats which means the rear seats would not be used. This drastically reduces the cabin air volume and system copes real well anywhere in Oz.
Bit to think about there... :)
** For all you front wheel drive devotees. Please continue to enjoy your preference machines. I am not trying to take anything away from the way you enjoying your own cars. Peace.
MD when I brought my motor off Paul from the Alpine Chapter he told me about his mate in Brisbane and told me he was the man when it came to modifying the GTV6. After hearing what lengths you have gone to my hat comes off for you mate you are a truly dedicated Alfetta man. You have given much to think about maybe even confused me a little more but with enthusiasts like yourself on this forum I'm sure advice is never too far away. Thanks
It's my pleasure to help anyone who is an Alfa enthusiast and contrary to what may seem at first, I do try to assist where I have some knowledge worth sharing for ANY Alfa model.
The reality check is that all Alfas are great cars straight out of the box. It is only when you start to compare them against each other that certain traits favour certain preferences in what drivers want.
So welcome to the brand Alfa and know that whatever you decide to do will ultimately result in a fine car if it is done in a tradesman like manner.
Quote from: MD on May 30, 2013, 06:36:18 PM
It's my pleasure to help anyone who is an Alfa enthusiast and contrary to what may seem at first, I do try to assist where I have some knowledge worth sharing for ANY Alfa model.
The reality check is that all Alfas are great cars straight out of the box. It is only when you start to compare them against each other that certain traits favour certain preferences in what drivers want.
So welcome to the brand Alfa and know that whatever you decide to do will ultimately result in a fine car if it is done in a tradesman like manner.
He he... ARNA, Alfa 6, 2300 ti, ....... just had to say!
Good posts MD.
Motoring nirvana comes in different forms for different people, a fact that's not always recognised on this forum so it's nice to see it happen here (especially from one of the acknowledged gurus). Personally the new Giulietta doesn't ring my bells, and neither is a 45k spend on a GTV6 likely to happen in my lifetime, but if either - or something else entirely - is your flavour of Alfa then good on you. Respect for putting your money and heart where your mouth is.
Peace back at ya ;)
Rory
The conversion has been completed and I'm very happy with the transformation of the car. However quick question to those knowledgable people who have done this engine upgrade or something similar before, how do I fill out the change of vehicle details for VicRoads? Do I tell them it's a 3l? Do I tell them it's a 2.5l and see if I get away with it? Or do I tell them it's a manufacturers optional engine? (As South Africa had a 3l motor not sure if this qualifies) I'm trying to avoid getting a VASS approval certificate if I can and your help will be much appreciated.
I am not familiar with the term "VASS" certificate. I am assuming it is a reference to a certified modification ?
As a rule, a vehicle that has been materially modified from the original such as in your case should be certified for its fitness to be registered and used on Australian roads. This is usually done by a private certifier who is usually a mechanical engineer familiar with ADR's . A vehicle that is modified but not declared may be unfit for registration and therefore would have no entitlement to be used on public roads. Anotherwords it is illegal. Furthermore, should such a vehicle be involved in an accident, the insurance cover could be made invalid due to this fact and therefore, you may be liable for all damages.
The procedure in Qld. is called "Blue Platting".
Ignore this advice at your own peril.
Seems easier here in SA.
I've sold my 3.0l 90 and to save the new owner any trouble, I filled out the form at motor rego to tell them I'd put another engine in. I had to supply the engine number and answer questions about capacity, induction etc..
I was told that it would take about 2 - 3 weeks and I would be called if more information was needed, but I just got the rego back after 10 days with the new number on. All done, no questions asked.
Good luck
Steve
Adelaide
Sorry I should have made it more clear. There are a few options to tick on the form basically if it's a like for like motor there is no need for an engineer certificate. If it is a manufacturers option or a different size or type of motor with no structural changes then there is no need for an engineer certificate but if you change the motor that is something the manufacturer never offered or there were structural changes you need an engineer report. So my question is has anyone stated that it was manufacturers option due to the South African model and avoided getting an engineers certificate in Victoria? I'm not trying to break the law but just save spending money on an engineer if I don't have to.
four90s
Your outcome has probably more to do with a lack of public service knowledge about these cars (and/or care)that eventually fell into the too hard basket.
gtvsix86
I appreciate your dilemma. Good vehicle manufacturers like Alfa Romeo invariably make upgrades to all sorts of engineering to an existing model when there is a power upgrade. An example is the bigger brakes and driveline components installed on the GTV6 when it was upgraded from the GTV2.0. All this for a relatively small increase of 500cc.
There is a precedence in the SA cars and you should do some research just what those modification upgrades are. Provided you have installed all the same essential upgrades, there is no reason why your conscience should not be clear.
Quote from: MD on December 28, 2013, 02:26:58 PM
four90s
Your outcome has probably more to do with a lack of public service knowledge about these cars (and/or care)that eventually fell into the too hard basket.
While I'm one of those for doing the right thing legally even if just to cover yourself in case of an insurance claim, how hard is it to tell 12 Valve 2.5L from a 3L? The number of discussions I've seen on ALFA forums about trying to work out if a car has a 2.5 or 3 suggests to me that it 'aint easy. Would even an insurance assessor be able to tell if they suspect? ;)
Had a few frustrating times in the '80s with rotaries and Vicroads (or RTA as it was then) when it comes to "How many Cylinders?". The rego label used to list the number as "Rot". ::)
Al,
If the insurance company was on the ball, a simple check of the engine numbers would reveal a 3 litre unit. If it lived in a registered vehicle before, that number would already be on databases as such. A cinch.
Al and MD
MD, I agree about both the lack of knowledge at Motor Rego and the brake upgrade with the 3.0 litre. I've got the good old Volvo four spot calipers and will use 164 discs, to use the bigger swept area with those pads.
Al, with the engine identification, all the V6s I've looked at have had a number showing the capacity cast into the r/h head at the rear. (2.0, 2.5, 3.0)
Easier to see in a GTV or a front driver, hard to see in a 90 or 75.
I would think it would be a lot of trouble for someone to go to to swap heads, so I've always gone with those numbers.
Cheers
Steve
Adelaide
Whoops. Ok I stand corrected. :-X
Registration is complete as a 3l. However next project will be looking at the brakes I have seen numerous threads about different upgrades but those who have been there done that please help.
I would like to stay with Brembos 6pot or 4pot which car should I aim at getting then from and has anyone made an adapter to suit?