What is the general opinion on the configuration for a tow vehicle that will be used as a daily drive. Suggestions on make and model ok but more importantly manual or auto and diesel or petrol. Work on a minimum 2500kg tow capacity.
When Neil and I drove up to SMP Eastern Creek mid last year, we both towed our race cars, Neil had a Petrol and I a Diesel. Neil had to stop to fill up nearly twice for my once! Pulling up the hills on the Hume presented no challenge for my Diesel and while Neil's petrol stayed with me, for the most part, it was working pretty hard to do so. Both are auto.
Having said that, as a daily driver, I don't know, my wife drives the 'soccer mum' car on a daily basis. I do drive it a fair bit on weekends with family etc, and its fine, as long as you have another car for a squirt through the twistys at some point, cos the Diesel SUV aint gunna scratch that itch.
Doug
You are going to start a whole heap of opinions here because everyone will know best.
But for what it is worth, definitely a sizable diesel, auto or manual take your pick.
I would go with a Territory 2.7L diesel but read the Kia Sorento (2.2L diesel) is pretty darn good. Phil will be able to tell you about it. I am considering either by year's end for a new car.
On our trip last year, my Territory Petrol was using 2 tanks (about 17-20L/100Km) to every one tank of diesel by Phil in his Sorento and he had more pull up hills.
In the reports, the 2.2L Sorento pumps out as much power as the 2.7L Territory, both about 140kW and 400nM. The Sorento is cheaper by $10K and better equipped.
But I like the cargo size of the Territory.
Or the BMW X5 M5.0D which is a twin turbo diesel, 280kW, 740nM, enough to tow I think.
Land Discovery 3 Diesel perhaps
Ha!!!
Phil replies saying the same!!!! There you go.
Not a V8 Discovery! You can hear them slurping it down at the lights standing still....
HDJ80/100 Landcruiser. The best diesel engine put into a 4WD, bar none. Post July 1996 models are rated to 3500/350kg, before that they are only rated to 2500/250kg.
I'd go for an auto, not so muchg for any towing advantages (which there are) but it does make them less truck-like around town.
I am now on my second petrol 80 series Landcruiser (first was auto), and the clutch in my manual version is near half as heavy is it is in my Alfa 90........ :(
Japanese Diesel Auto is a safe bet.
Been very happy with my 2006 Pathfinder 2.5L diesel as a tow car.
Ours looks better.
Evan, you would be borderline with that set up. Any car can tow, the problem is stopping. Keep em coming, i dont mind the pathfinder diesel idea
Quote from: alfa duk on March 14, 2013, 09:33:02 PM
Evan, you would be borderline with that set up. Any car can tow, the problem is stopping.
You may be right, but the rig was well within the towing capacity, and she handled and stopped very well. I've felt much more uncomfortable towing with a Falcon sedan before.
As Neil said, everyone is going to have an opinion on this one and say their setup is best!
I don't think my setup is the best as far as economic towing goes, but really, for how often you need to tow, is that really a big deal?
I have a 1999 Holden Rodeo 3.5L Crew cab ute with a fiberglass canopy. On gas, with light truck tyres. Rated to tow 2500kg, and it pulls along like there is nothing on the back. Absolutely effortless towing, heaps of grunt from the V6.
Very useful because you can put all your tools/fuel/shit in the back, and still have 4 doors and a backseat.
It does use a whole 55L tank of LPG to get to Winton though, but for $35 each way, I can't complain!
Also, A/C is amazing and it is very comfortable to drive, automatic makes it easy around town and dual fuel is great.
One last thing which is a big bonus, you can pick these and newer models up in great condition for under 10k.
Here is another.
I had the fortunate use of a Mazda BT50 3.0L Diesel ute, 4 dr cab, courtesy of Daniel White and Greg McPherson of City Madza.
Loaded with all the gear, tools, spares, trailer and race car, the Madza drove like a car and tow like there was nothing in the back. In fact, at the lights with a bit of over excitement I managed to spin the wheels taking off, that is with trailer attached, a great surprise.
If needing a ute, they are the one to get. They are pretty popular, lots on the road.
Fuel economy was about 11L/100km towing.
The only thing is the ute part is so high up, you need to climb in it to get things out. My wife gave that look when I suggested getting one for her to replace her Territory. You all know what that look is.
Oh, the Toyota HiLux SR5 is probably just a bit nicer, it had cup holders in the ute flap thingy that folds down!!!!
Oh, wasn't one of the popular tow car to get is a F-truck.
Some brilliant ones around and not that expensive.
2 Cents worth: I have a 2000 model AU XR6 Falcon ute. Most comfortable seats in any car I've ever owned - including the G6E Turbo we bought this week. I get 15l/100km towing the race car rig, which it does with relative ease. Nice cheap ute available between 6 and 7 grand now for a good one. Only issue is that does really work those front brakes going down long steep ranges. I live 500m above sea level so the brakes get a good workout every time I go down the hill.
Good ute though and light on the hip pocket for purchase and repairs.
Best of luck with the choice. It really depends what else you want to use your tow vehicle for.
Cheers, Brent
Neil, the bt50 was one on my short list that ticked all the boxes but i dont know if i can look at it for the next 10 years, its ugly, even on the tv ad they put a bull bar on to cover it up. How about the ford ranger? I think it has the same engine as the mazda? but looks a whole lot better. problem is the wait. 6 months manual 12 auto. Only comes in diesel. Have never towed with a manual but gathering what phil said is no different but paul says auto has its advantages, what are they? Could also go the navara
I'm going to generalise here, but an automatic tranny has inbuilt self protection because of the 'slippage'. A manual, being directly coupled, transmits all loads through the driveline. For that reason, many vehicles have a higher tow rating when you option the auto rather than the manual (e.g. later Falcons with 1600kg on manuals, but 2300kg on autos). Most 4WDs don't differentiate.
I do hear stories of late model twin cabs having problems with clutches when used for towing. I reckon it's because they all have relatively small capacity engines, pumping out relatively high horsepower, but everything is lightened to make them drive much more car-like. The autos just seem to be less susceptible to less-than-perfect treatment. There is little or no 'snatch' effect with an auto.
These days autos are pretty high tech, so it's unlikely there would be a noticeable difference in economy, and there is no doubt they are easier to drive. Modern multi-speed autos are also well matched with the narrower power band of a turbodiesel and tend to mask the turbo lag.
I'm not sure whether new manuals can be optioned with cruise control, most autos can.
If you intend to tow a lot, and mostly highway, then I wouldn't baulk at a manual, particularly if the vehicle will double as a weekend 4WD plaything. But if you intend doing a bit of stop-start towing, city driving, and using the vehicle as a family truckster, I honestly reckon the auto is the go.
People will say "but autos are expensive to fix". That's true, but you need to include the clutch as part of a manual tranny when doing a comparison, and modern high-tech clutches are expensive to buy, and expensive to change.
Modern dual-cab utes are not small either. A mate's VW Amarok is higher, wider, and probably longer than my 80 series wagon. But then my wife's Kia Cerato, a 'small' car, monsters the Alfa 90 parked beside it......
Oh, be wary of quoted tow ratings. Many require specific tow kits to legally tow those quoted weights. Also some tow ratings are affected by the loaded mass in the vehicle itself.
I've had 4WDs for years, and love them, but my Dad, and his dad before him, towed caravans all over this wide brown land, on dirt roads, using regular six and eight cylinder 2WD cars such as Falcons and Fairlanes. You don't NEED a large 4WD to tow.
Looks, they all look the same and as attractive as each other, so don't worry.
Auto is just easy, yes no difference with manual. Diesel is definitely the way to go.
So it is BT50 vs Ranger vs Navarra vs HiLux, then there is VW Amarok. Take your pick. I think HiLux demands a premium due to its good reputation.
Know owners with a Navarra, HiLux or Amarok, all tells me what they have is great and the one to get.
Someone told me about the AU Falcons as Brent has mentioned, pretty cheap because no one likes or wants them due the ugly front.
Quote from: alfa duk on March 14, 2013, 09:33:02 PM
Evan, you would be borderline with that set up. Any car can tow, the problem is stopping. Keep em coming, i dont mind the pathfinder diesel idea
That's what modern electric brakes are for Duk. I towed an 18' bogie-axle van with my 60 series Landcruiser (6.2 GM diesel conversion) and I could stop the thing quicker with the van hooked up than I could without anything in tow!!! ;)
A bit out of left-field perhaps, unusual for me I know.
I'd been thinking about this recently, as I'll probably get a tow-car next year. Since it would be a vehicle I'd rarely use it needed to be 25 years-old to put on club-plates, it needed to be able to tow, needed to be reasonably nice to drive, needed to be cheap and reliable, needed plenty of grunt but not too thirsty, needed to be a different tow-rig than anyone else, needed to be once considered as 'the best car in the world', and needed to be almost impossible to fix if anything ever went wrong with it.
Only one option really....
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Lexus_LS_400_UCF10_I.jpg)
A BMW 750iL would probably be cheaper to buy ;)
Seriously though, Duk did mention daily-drive, so club reg is no use. He also didn't say that the tow duties would be for AROCA sanctioned events, so if he's towing a boat on weekends, again club reg is useless.
Would AROCA Vic accept a Lexus under club reg?
A late V8 100 series landcruiser on LPG would be another option. Economical, 8 seats, much more comfy than a twin cab ute.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on March 15, 2013, 10:49:58 PM
A late V8 100 series landcruiser on LPG would be another option. Economical, 8 seats, much more comfy than a twin cab ute.
Some of those dual cabs are pretty comfy, well equipped, leathered up and pretty flash inside in my opinion.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on March 15, 2013, 10:47:29 PM
A BMW 750iL would probably be cheaper to buy ;)
I'd thought about it, but would prefer the Toyota reliability (I'm not even joking, I've researched these, the known problems are an easy fix, and these are well known for going 500k).
Quote from: Paul Bayly on March 15, 2013, 10:47:29 PM
Seriously though, Duk did mention daily-drive, so club reg is no use. He also didn't say that the tow duties would be for AROCA sanctioned events, so if he's towing a boat on weekends, again club reg is useless.
Rules have changed here, you get a permit for 90 days per year, you can use the car for those 90 days no matter what you're doing with it. I don't know what the rules are for oop North.
Quote from: alfa duk on March 15, 2013, 08:57:02 PM
How about the ford ranger? I think it has the same engine as the mazda?
Yep BT-50 and the Ranger are twins under the skin.
Every review I've read has the Mazda pip the Ford at the post because of a better cost for the same features. Agreed, the BT-50 is ugly and it may be worth the extra $'s for the good looking twin.
Quote from: Brad M on March 15, 2013, 11:44:58 PM
Every review I've read has the Mazda pip the Ford at the post because of a better cost for the same features. Agreed, the BT-50 is ugly and it may be worth the extra $'s for the good looking twin.
Except with the ranger, you can get a factory locking rear diff. No other twin cab ute that I'm aware of offers this as an option.
After a solid 6 months of research, my mate got a top of the line ranger about a fortnight ago. Whilst he hasn't towed anything with it yet, he's absolutely stoked. Still, at 60k odd, you would want to be happy with it.
Left field - a club member has a VW Transporter that he tows the race car with. I think it's a 2.5 diesel, and he raves about how well it tows. It's a five seater, with heaps of space in the rear for tool chests and spares for the race car. Apart from the 'white van man' problem, it's damn near perfect.
I'd consider this for us if I could just find a couple of extra excuses. It'd be perfect for carrying the family gear around.
Organised a test drive of the ranger tomorrow
Any reason a Falcon doesn't work? 2300kg towing capacity when fitted with the right kits, and a perfectly fine tow car.
I've towed with many different cars and 4WD's over the years and the most important thing to get right is the loading of the trailer and overall balance of the rig.
towed a 164 from mill park to hughs with my 06 dualcab hilux 2wd 4.0 v6 auto with no trouble at all. plenty of room for 5 adult and drives very much like a sedan. highly recommend this vehicle as a daily driver and fatique free road trips
Interesting topic and one that people make mistakes on regulaly whether it be towing a race car or a caravan for the family holiday.
It seems to me that the key to the descission here is the daily drive v/s towing percentage.
If you are talking towing maybe 6 or 12 days per year against daily drive of say 240 days per year I know which way I would be leaning.
Some slight inconvienience going up a hill in a head wind 6 days a year v/s driving most of the 4x4 heaps mentioned above every day of the week does not seem like fun to me.
Since this is a Alfa Forum and concidering a lot of us tow our race cars, a 2 litre Japanese car or Evan's diesel Alfa 159 would be perfectly adequate to tow occassionally and a lot more fun to drive during the week. My race car and trailer combination weighs in at less than 1300 kg and provided I carefully load the tow car and have working brakes on the trailer the combo is a dream to drive, safe on the road and still returns better fuel economy than a '4bi'.
Or out of left field......if you have the parking space, buy a classic tow vehicle and stick it on club plates.
As it was said in the earlier posts, i was going to get 1001 differing opinions and while all suggestions are plausible and could work some of the towing capacities are borderline and for that reason i wouldnt go there. All cars will pull but will they stop, especially in the wet. Another point that people overlook is the amount of additional weight they throw in like spare wheels, tools, jacks, stands and if you are like me, marquees and our clubshop. So when we have our 1000kg car, 600kg trailer and 200kgs of gear, throw in and extra person and their gear and it adds up.
A good point was made about packing car and trailer for balance as this has a huge effect on performance and safety and checkout the tow bar rating, a vehicle may have a 2 t rating but the tow bar is only 200kgs.
BTW, i took the ranger out today, I'm impressed.
To come from another angle .. FBT .. if the vehicle is going to be through the business then a 'dual cab utility' will by my understanding, avoid the FBT whereas a 'station wagon' - including 4wd's such as Land Rover, Ranger, BMW, Prado, Kia, Landcruiser etc etc will be subject to same - guess the other consideration, other than space at home, is do you really want/need a 'tank' as an every day drive ... now that leaves the door open for another 'Effie' on Club plates and a GTA/GT to amble around town in :)