I realise this is anathema for Alfisti, but I'm after guidance/experience at installing aftermarket cruise on a transaxle car.
I've successfully installed the Command AP50/AP60 units on at least six 'normal' vehicles. Last time I tried to use the speedo electronic signal rather than use the magnetic pickup (on a Landcruiser) but it wasn't quite right so I went back to the tried and true magnets.
Problem with the transaxles is that the propshaft spins at engine RPM, too fast for the magnetic sensor, plus likely to spin a magnet into low orbit at higher RPMs.
I've never installed the AP60 on a FWD vehicle but figure that the FWD setup is similar to the transaxle drive output, aft of the gearbox. So it should be feasible to install the magnets on an axle, or the inboard brake disc carrier.
Has anyone installed an AP60 type CC unit on an Alfetta based car?
I think that provided you have enough vacumn, then the AP 50-60 work fine, for Front Wheel Drive cars you use 2 magnets, on Rear Wheel Drive cars you use 1 magnet, that is running the magnets on the drive shaft or Constant Velocity Joint where it doesn't move up and down or in and out, i always find that they work best when the air gap is at a minimum setting of 4mm or 5/32 inch, just stick a drill bit between the magnet and pickup, the pickup should be steadily mounted off the gearbox, and sometimes the supplied predrilled brackets are a bit flimsy, so its best you make your own ones up. Sometimes the car has not enough vacumn for the actuator to work, so you can put in a vacumn tank, these are available at cruise control places or airconditioning supply places, as air conditioned cars have vacumn tanks to make all the valves and doors work, you can run the speed sensor off the speedo, but it is usually an expensive nightmare, but why use it when magnets work just as good, if the cruise control won't work at low speed, then add another magnet, if it cuts out at high speed, then remove one of the magnets, the magnets can be held down by tiewire or plastic or stainless steel cable ties, not an anathema to me, i live in Victoria, speed camera's everywhere, 2 speeding fines in 38 years of driving, thanks to those good cruise controls, Colin.
Yep, I've never used the magnet sensor brackets from the kits. Always make my own and tried to mount it to the rear of the gearbox with magnet mounted forward of the propshaft uni joint. That way the magnet-arc-to-sensor relationship remains constant even with the gearbox moving on its mounts or the propshaft angle changing from suspension movement. Despite concerns from many people (who have never actually had or installed an AP60) I've never had a magnet come adrift. If I did, I have plenty of spares ;)
Another source for a vac tank is a 4WD wrecker. Many diesel 4WDs from the 80s and 90s had a tank.
I should also mention that I'm talking about an Alfa 90 V6. The other tricky part is suitably routing and connecting the CC actuator cable to either the throttle body, or the pedal. I haven't put much thought into that as yet.
The mounting of the cable to the throttle body should be easy, the kits come with plenty of set ups and widgets to connect to the throttle link, don't use pedal though, ends up with too much slop, only connect cable actuator to cars with fly by wire system on pedal, used a early Command Cruise dashboard flat switch, but couldn't see it at night, pulled it apart and put a LED in it, was actually meant to have one, but cost cutting took it out, worked a treat, Colin.
Thanks for the hint on the switch pad Colin. I had noticed that as an issue with the AP-60. The old AP-50s had a few variations of control pads over the years, including a stalk option, but the pads were all backlit. Do you simply solder in an LED inline with the power wire?
Hopefully I can route the control wiring up the steering column along with the horn wiring and attach the pad to my aftermarket wheel. This will give me fingertip access without taking a hand off the wheel and fumbling around on the dash.
The Alfettas had a switch to the clutch pedal mirroring the brake pedal switch (it was used for emissions control and A/C idle-up). Hopefully mounting a clutch pedal switch on the 90 is as easy (to kill cruise when you dab the clutch pedal).
I installed an AP50 on my GTV6. Just used the Speedo signal as it entered the gauge. I actually put in a three-way connector in the wires just behind the Speedo to get power, ground & signal for the AP50. I have a recollection that the AP50 had a wire link that you cut if you had a speed signal that was too high in frequency. It had a test function to show that it was picking up the speed signal, flashing a LED. It worked very well on the ALFA.
I already had mounted a magnet for a bicycle "computer" Speedo - I glued a very small magnet to the inside of the rear wheel hub just next to one of the wheel stud heads. Couldn't work out an easy way to do a bracket for the sensor on the inboard disks. I didn't try using that magnet for the AP50 as I tried the Speedo signal first, it worked and was under the dash where everything else was going.
I installed a second "brake" switch on the clutch pedal as I had a couple of startling experiences in my old VN Commodore. I mounted that using a long piece of stiff aluminium strip bolted to the pedal box. Mongrel of a job that bit, similar to remounting the clutch master.
Connected the vac cable to the throttle with a small plate bolted on with the existing ALFA throttle cable terminal stud – see picture. Don't know if the 90 is similar.
I'll also attach a poor image of the glued on magnet.
AL.
Back in 86 i put a full electronic German VDO Cruise Control on the 33, and i got the VDO agent to wire up the speed sensor to the speedo, it was a job that went on for hours and cost me a small fortune, 12 years later when the VDO unit died, i put a K-Mart AP-50 cruise on the 33, and it worked well, magnet speed pickup was not a problem, back in them days of yore you could get a flat pad switch or a stalk, so i chose the stalk, but it is set up for Left Hand Drive cars with the mount being on the left side of the column, if you put it on the right hand side of the column, then the switch is up side down, put it on the left side on the 33 and it hits the centre dash binnicle, so i pulled the switch apart and turned the buttons over 180 degrees so they could be read, the stalk was illuminated and worked well, the only problem i found with the stalk was that the plastic was rubbish and warped in the sun, the flat pad switch that i had in my Volkswagon had the LED put in it and i picked up power from the ignition switch in the switch itself, as it had a on-off switch, Colin.
I have a cruise unit I pulled of a 90 sitting in my shed, it had the magnet on the tailshalft also ran a wire to the distributer and cables to the brake and accell pedal, the switch unit was on the plastic column surround,
I sits in my shed and I'm never going to use it so if anyone wants it pm me
What is stopping a person using the tacho signal or distributor trigger signal as a speed input?
Simply add a micro-switch to the gear lever so that the cruise control is only active in 5th gear (add 1 for 4th too, if you really want) and then the cruise control will always see an input frequency that is consistent with road speed.
Duk,
Frequency of tacho would be too high, probably. Cruise controls usually have an upper speed limit above which they won't work.
AL.
Quote from: Duk on January 25, 2013, 07:59:31 AM
What is stopping a person using the tacho signal or distributor trigger signal as a speed input?
Simply add a micro-switch to the gear lever so that the cruise control is only active in 5th gear (add 1 for 4th too, if you really want) and then the cruise control will always see an input frequency that is consistent with road speed.
Nothing to stop you trying it. But when you can buy a complete kit for under $200.00 that uses the magnets, why bother (unless there are reasons that kit won't work in your application)? I believe a lot of the US aftermarket kits use a signal off the coil.
From my recent experience trying to drive the AP60 off the speedo signal on my Landcruiser (I tried a few different pick-off points) I won't go there again. I went back to using the magnets and it worked perfectly, plus no need to go ripping the dash and wiring apart.
There are more expensive kits that use a dedicated speed sensor you plug into the gearbox (for electronic speedo cars). Not sure if a sensor/adaptor is available for an Alfa.
I think the biggest issues in installing an AP60 on the 90 will be mounting the magnet and associated sensor somwhere around the rear axle, and then making a satisfactory (and safe) connection for the servo to the throttle linkage/bellcrank.
Quote from: Paul Bayly on January 25, 2013, 06:19:46 PM
But when you can buy a complete kit for under $200.00
Interested to know where you managed to get one for that price ... might come in handy on the long boring tarmac sections of the Shitbox Rally.
About 30 years ago, me and my brother put an American Cruise Control in his Sud and for the speed sensor they used a sensor, similar to a timing light sensor on a timing light, that attaches to the spark plug wire, worked very badly, as did that Cruise Control, last year i put a ROSTRA Cruise Control in the 33, it wasn't a Vacumn Cruise, but an Electronic one, i purchased the optional Magnet Speed Sensor, but with this kit you could also use a Pulse Sensor that picks up the pulses off the pickup in the gearbox, the Cruise programming allowed you to program the sensitivity of the pulses from say 10,000 to 100 pulses per mile, [it was AMERICAN after all!], it didn't work anywhere near as good as the Magnet Sensor, also tried to use the primary low voltage side of the coil, it didn't work either, cannot understand why someone doesn't use the prmary side of the ignition, after all it would be only one wire to connect, Colin.
Brad, I may have been optimistic with the <$200!!! I just checked Ebay and $230/240 seems to be the going rate these days. A few years back I was in K-Mart in SA and they were on special for $145.00 each (AP60) I bought the remaining four and just used the last kit on my Landcruiser.
But if you find a kit, don't pay an extra $20.00 for a clutch switch. I just buy a $7.00 brake switch from Supercheap.
Supercheap used to sell the Command CCs (get them on 'special' and it would go close to my $200 claim.....) , and strangely I've seen the CCs in K-Mart in the NT and in SA, but not in VIC or NSW???
I owned my first Alfa, a '79 GTV, for 14 years. Even on short drives I suffered a sore right leg and eventually the pain would shoot up my back and into my right shoulder (I used to drive it a lot, and often). I honestly believe my current fragile/dodgy back problem is directly related to all those cramped years. If only I'd known about cheap CCs back then.............
I have never installed a clutch switch, as it is there in case you press the clutch and the engine revs to the billio, always told my Cruise Control the car is an Automatic, so it doesn't look for the clutch switch, have maybe once or twice hit the clutch pedal by mistake, and the sudden increase in revs tells you to take your hoof off the clutch pedal, some of the more customised and expensive Cruise Controls have a built in sensor that senses a quick increase in revs, and cuts out the Cruise, similar to you touching the brake pedal, the brake switch wiring is easy, 2 wires to connect, one to the 'hot' side and the other to the 'cold' side, this is a safety feature so that they won't engage if there is no power to the brake switch, because if there is no power there you wouldn't be able to dissengage it by tapping the brake pedal, the cheaper Cruise Controls have only one wire going to the 'cold' side, that is active when the brake pedal is pushed, Colin.
The AP60 will disconnect with a certain percentage over or under-rev. I think it's about 15%. But if the engine is labouring slightly uphill trying to maintain speed (throttle pulled open) and you hit the clutch, you can rev the engine pretty hard.
I always strive to fit a clutch switch, but as you say Colin, it's not a dealbreaker. In my 4WDs I like to have a clutch switch as I often dab the clutch pedal to disconnect the CC rather than use the brake pedal. I adjust the switch so it activates in forst couple of MMs of pedal travel, and usually prior to the throwout bearing being contacted. In some cases the CC has switched off when I've hit a big bump and the pedal has bounced...... Using the clutch pedal to disconnect keeps the brake lights from illuminating and upsetting those travelling behind, and also allows me to keep the right foot on the throttle to better and more smoothly match road speed when the CC disconnects. Also saves having to drop your eyes off the road looking forthe small CC dosconnect switch.
On the AP60 you don't need to 'tell' it if it's auto or manual. There are a couple of spare wires/sockets in the brain and you just wire the clutch swith in series. As with the brake circuit, the brain is simply looking for a switch closed condition to make the circuit and disconnect the cruise.
I did have a couple of dopy half asleep moments using cruise in my manual VN whilst going up hill, the engine started to lug so I went to change gears. :o Wakes you up pretty damned quick. Only diod it twice during years of use. And the VN already had a mounting point on the clutch pedal mount for a "brake light" switch.
AP50 ($100 from K-MART years ago) didn't have an "automatic" choice/function. Going to put it in the GTV6, thought the clutch switch was a good idea. Hardest part of the job, probably wouldn't bother a second time. I only put the cruise in the ALFA to help calibrate the speedo after replacing the needle and installing a Jaycar speedo corrector.
AL
Actually, from a slightly different angle the speed limiter on Mercedes and Renault's removes most of the requirement for a cruise control. I had a C-class Merc for 6 years, 100,000kms, and the only times I ever used the cruise was on long open roads like the Newell or Hume.
In all other situations you set the limiter to the speed you are happy with and rest your right foot on the pedal. If you brake and then accelerate again then the car simply stops accelerating at the set limit. Great around town, in school zones, and in traffic that is traveling at variable speeds.
If you want to go over the set speed a quick dab of the accelerator past the kick-down releases the limit, and then a flick of the control sets it again. Never could understand why its not mandatory other than it actually helps you drive at legal speeds rather than fining you for exceeding them. ::)
Oh - clutch switch much more important in a car with light weight flywheel. Plus no need to think about it; any change like clutch, brake or accidental gearshift should switch the CC off.
Alfa 33 has a rev cut out in the rotor button, the minute you go to 6800, it will stop spark to the spark plugs, never used clutch switch on Cruise Control, something i don't need, and something more to go wrong 3 hours from home, so i can't fix it, i think Cruise Controls are fabulous in states like speed camera infested Victoria, all car makers in Australia fit Cruises as standard equipment now, even the cheap Korean cars have them now, a real neccesity in a car like an older Alfa Romeo with the pedal setup, that forces funny angles on your limbs, Colin.