Author Topic: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project  (Read 15150 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #225 on: October 28, 2021, 03:29:13 PM »
Selespeed is another issue, thanks to incompetent mechanics.

I wouldn't say incompetent, but more unfamiliar.

Many a mechanic with good intentions and trying to help out an unfortunate client have come to grief with selespeed units, not because of lack of skills, but just simply not having the correct diagnostic software and a lack of experience and  with the units.

Also the price of fixing it. I had one sele GT jts and it cost something like $2k to fix at an alfa mechanic because of the pump for the lower gears of whatever and the 2nd hand part was $800. I tried fixing it myself based on changing the o rings as other alfa forums said but it did nothing but than gave it to the mechanic. Thankfully car wouldn't start as didn't realize the hydraulic fluid is located at the top of the engine bay so essentially would have ran it without hydraulic fluid. And I couldn't find a workshop manual on the gt selespeed. But than bought another gt selespeed as the shift was way crisper than the first GT even after first one was fixed. Alfa's technology capability is high but there are no redundancy systems in place and the parts market has not enough new supply so the prices are high and they feed on each other and which is why alfas are worth what they are in many cases. I was watching the ratarossa YouTube channel and a Ferrari 308 fuel sender unit n the UK is cheaper than a 159 fuel sender unit in aus. This also leads to deferred maintenance and a cheap alfa can cost you a lot to get running right. But once it's running well they are usually very dependable and only the horror stories are spread about as no one cares when your alfa runs very well. Plus if you take to an alfa mechanic they know what's wrong with and will tell you whereas getting serviced at ultra tune could lead to more problems and they won't tell you what's wrong with it as they don't know.

One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

There a lot of great things such as looks, chassis, suspension, brakes, certain characteristics of the engines etc. If you value what an Italian engineer values than you will love alfas.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 04:09:10 PM by Alfatango »
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #226 on: October 28, 2021, 03:32:07 PM »
I'm still not sold on the twin spark idea. Most other brands had 150 hp out of 2.0 engines without extra spark plugs. Even Alfa's own JTS allegedly made 165 hp. Now this one I don't quite believe, as me and my friend dynoed our JTSs and got nowhere near those figures. So your average TS would be more powerful than JTS (say with 150kkm on the clock).

I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 03:38:47 PM by Alfatango »
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

bazzbazz

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2039
    • ON THE SPOT ALFA
  • AROCA Member #: 870
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #227 on: October 28, 2021, 05:38:27 PM »
One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

You know, there could be some merit in this, my work car -  8)


I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.

Perhaps wishful thinking? Placebo affect?  ;)
ON THE SPOT ALFA
Mobile Alfa Romeo & Fiat Diagnostic/Repair/Maintenance & Servicing
Brisbane & Gold Coast
0405 721613
onthespotalfa@iinet.net.au

2004 Alfa 156 2.0 JTS Sportwagon (Patty)

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #228 on: October 28, 2021, 05:44:43 PM »
One great way to tell an alfa mechanic is to check what car they come to work in ;D. Just a heuristic I came up with when waiting for mechanics before they open up.

You know, there could be some merit in this, my work car -  8)


I didn't dyno anything but this 156 twin spark at 330,000km feels a LOT stronger than my 2 GT jts but it could be on a new engine.

Perhaps wishful thinking? Placebo affect?  ;)

That is a very tastefully done wagon!

I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

warsch

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 186
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #229 on: October 28, 2021, 08:04:28 PM »
I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.

Like I said, we did dyno the cars back to back. That being said, my friend got his JTS to perform - rebuild the head and skimmed it a bit and did some minor porting. After that it started to accelerate just like my car, we did some "drag" racing while doing circuit sprints. His car is selespeed and it seems like upshifts are on par with a manual. And downshift obviously are superior on a selespeed.

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #230 on: October 28, 2021, 08:22:59 PM »
I think the manual transmission helps it 'feel' different but it's probably a placebo until you have a dyno graph done on the same dyno ideally back to back.

Like I said, we did dyno the cars back to back. That being said, my friend got his JTS to perform - rebuild the head and skimmed it a bit and did some minor porting. After that it started to accelerate just like my car, we did some "drag" racing while doing circuit sprints. His car is selespeed and it seems like upshifts are on par with a manual. And downshift obviously are superior on a selespeed.

That's probably why the alfaholics gta r use the Twin Spark https://www.alfaholics.com/our-cars/completed-builds/gta-r-290-021-far-east-market/

The  156 ts super turismo also used the Twin Spark from around 98 to 2003 https://www.fcaheritage.com/en-uk/heritage/stories/alfa-romeo-156-superturismo

The later model was the 156 gta super 2000 which I presume had the ts still.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/45676495@N05/27213364781

Major Championships won by the 156 include the 1998 and 1999 Italian Super Touring Car Championship (Fabrizio Giovanardi) 2000 European Super Touring Car Cup (Fabrizio Giovanardi) 2000 South American Super Touring Car Championship (Oscar Larrauri) 2001 and 2002 FIA European Touring Car Championship (Fabrizio Giovanardi) 2003 FIA European Touring Car Championship (Gabriele Tarquini)

The Super 2000 rules were introduced in the European Touring Car Championship in 2002 to replace Super Touring, and to reduce the costs.

These cars still had 2 litre naturally aspirated engines ( a 4 cylinder in the case of the Alfa ) and around 270-280 hp, and a rev limit of 8500 rpm, but in the first year ( 2002 ) all cars raced with a 5 speed h pattern gearbox, instead of the 6 speed sequential gearboxes, that was used in the Super Touring cars.

At some point I want to compare the m3 touring cars to the 156 touring cars and maybe go through it season by season.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 08:27:58 PM by Alfatango »
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #231 on: October 29, 2021, 07:16:43 PM »
The conduit makes the car look way more pro. 30mm diameter is enough for the main bulky wires. Could go less diameter for the boot. 10m length did the whole car.
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #232 on: October 29, 2021, 07:18:07 PM »
These 5 holes at the back of each floor well are just filled with sound deadening so dont chip them out. I used underbody spray to fill in the gaps.
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #233 on: October 29, 2021, 07:26:19 PM »
Another cool feature I found is that there is a "scoop" for the radiator for the air flow. The grills in the front bumper are real. In the GT they were fake grills from memory.

Also the factory cold air intake in both the 156 and 159 is pretty cool.
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Craig_m67

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1164
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #234 on: October 29, 2021, 08:03:04 PM »
The twinspark used by Alfaholics (Alfa75, 155, 164, etal) bears no relationship to the twinspark used in the 147/156/GT.  Itís a completely different engine, with a completely different lineage (heritage)
'66 Duetto (lacework of doom)
'73 1600 GT Junior (ensconced)
'03 156 1.9JTD Sportwagon (daily driver)

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #235 on: October 29, 2021, 08:27:39 PM »
The twinspark used by Alfaholics (Alfa75, 155, 164, etal) bears no relationship to the twinspark used in the 147/156/GT.  Itís a completely different engine, with a completely different lineage (heritage)

Thanks Craig. You are right and it's all explained here https://www.italicar.co.uk/blog/2021/3/2/history-of-alfa-romeo-twin-spark-engines

TWIN SPARK TIMELINE

A Racing Pedigree: 1914 - 1965

Got A New Motor: 1987 - 1995

A Brief Explanation Of Twin Spark Combustion

A Brave New World: 1993 - 1995

Non-Identical Twinnies: 1995 - 2010

159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #236 on: October 30, 2021, 02:23:37 PM »
What do you guys think of a bolt like this for the towing straps? M16 x 2.0 by 40mm grade 8.8. No idea what any of that means besides that I measured the standard tow hook as as 30mm of thread plus the tow strap is about 5mm thick.

https://www.boltandnut.com.au/m16-x-2-00p-metric-coarse-galvanised-hex-set-screws-high-tensile-class-8-8

These worked well. I put on a m16 washer. However I did shave the towing strap holes slightly to get them to fit. Otherwise get the D bracket in a slightly bigger hole size than standard if it exists.

The other thing to note is that metal rail won't let it sit completely horizontal.

Socket was a size 24mm which is the same as the steering wheel bolt.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 02:34:19 PM by Alfatango »
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #237 on: October 30, 2021, 02:27:49 PM »
Since the front bumper is off I decided to change the coolant. Firstly it had green coolant in it. Now I have read that some people use this for motor sport and its easier to clean off the track? But I think red coolant is recommended for it. Can I put green coolant in it as I already bought it ::)

There is no valve so you have to knock off the bottom radiator hose which is on the passenger side. Undoing the air box helps as well.
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #238 on: October 30, 2021, 02:28:39 PM »
Side view. Anyone know what type of clip this is as can't get it close properly? I don't think it's a clic r but I could be wrong. Clic r is rhe 2nd pic
« Last Edit: October 30, 2021, 02:39:21 PM by Alfatango »
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs

Alfatango

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 334
Re: Twin Spark Cup & Enduro 156 Project
« Reply #239 on: October 30, 2021, 05:40:36 PM »
If anyone has info on the clip for the radiator hose as above  than please let me know as car is sitting out of action for the moment because of it.

So figured I would spend some time on finishing up a few things. Trial fit of 60s le mans 24 hour race car livery ;D 8).
159 3.2 JTS TI

Previous 2x GTs