Author Topic: Wheel spacers  (Read 23800 times)

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aggie57

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2012, 07:25:06 AM »
Its OK Evan, we read your restoration posts as well... :)
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

MD

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2012, 08:45:13 PM »
aggie57

Quote
NO DUK!  The spigot locates only.


Mate, I usually agree with your posts but I gotta say I am not buying that. A good interference fit of a wheel centre onto a hub machined down to provide a location is both a locator AND a point of load bearing in conjunction with the bolt fixings. It has a two fold purpose. Load bearing and centering.
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse.

Southern75

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2012, 09:28:17 PM »
I'll second Evan's question,  does anyone know where these can be made in Australia? ... Those ones look really good ...

whilst i concur with the spigoting of the wheels, is there any mechanical disadvantage by running a spacer ... say on a sud using about a 4-6mm spacer and longer wheel bolts than standard?
Rust, nah that's not rust .... its iron oxide!!!

Alfas:
1977 Alfasud ti (race)
1980 Alfasud ti (race)
1987 75 V6 (toy)
2008 147 JDTM (sensible?)

MD

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2012, 08:19:00 AM »
Southern75,

A small track change of 4-6mm is not likely to make any noticable handling change. The important thing to remember is to keep the front to back track change the same. Alfas generally have a wider front track than the rear**. This all has to do with the way they handle which is one of the things we love about these cars.

A careful look at the spacers in this topic will show that they are of two thicknesses. The application of these units is obvioulsy intended not only to create a wider track, clear wheel interference etc but also to alter one track width to the other. (for whatever reason ?)

** For the sake of perspective I will make this generalisation. European cars cater for enthusiasts that love cornering and this is best achieved with a wider front track than the rear. The Yanks love to do drags and straight line speed and are looking for maximum rear traction from wide rear tyres. Due to fouling reasons, the front tyres are usually smaller than the rear set and this inevitably resullts in a wider rear track than the front..

The effect of this is that the front axle set is working to a shorter radius than the rear and therefor turning in sooner that the rear. Result, automatic oversteer Starsky and Hutch style.  ;D

Horses for courses..
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse.

aggie57

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2012, 09:21:10 AM »
MD - I stick to my earlier assertion that the spigots DO NOT take load. Well, if they do then sooner or later you will have a failure. That's why they can be made out of plastic.

http://www.spigotrings.com
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 09:25:46 AM by aggie57 »
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

Duk

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2012, 12:46:57 PM »
MD - I stick to my earlier assertion that the spigots DO NOT take load. Well, if they do then sooner or later you will have a failure. That's why they can be made out of plastic.

I read once, somewhere, that plastic spigot rings aren't allowed in Australia.

And I maintain that the large central spigot is much more resilient to impact than the bolt/studs are and that is the whole idea of the central spigot, correct location and support.
Here in heavy industry I've seen plenty of sheared bolts when they are subjected to (duh  :P) shear stresses. Locating blocks, additional dowels or significantly larger bolt diameter is the answer, even if the clamping requirements of the original bolts were sufficient.
Seen a few cars with 'non hub-centric' wheel spacers that have sheared their wheel studs, too.

MD

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2012, 04:03:07 PM »
Well alfa duk, I suppose by now you have well and truly been informed by all arguments so there is no excuse for lack of action. Now go out there and slap some black doughnuts on, (with or without location) and burn some rubber.- you do know that REAL MEN burn rubber don't you ?? !!  ;D
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 08:11:05 AM by MD »
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse.

aggie57

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2012, 08:35:17 PM »
MD - I stick to my earlier assertion that the spigots DO NOT take load. Well, if they do then sooner or later you will have a failure. That's why they can be made out of plastic.

I read once, somewhere, that plastic spigot rings aren't allowed in Australia.

And I maintain that the large central spigot is much more resilient to impact than the bolt/studs are and that is the whole idea of the central spigot, correct location and support.
Here in heavy industry I've seen plenty of sheared bolts when they are subjected to (duh  :P) shear stresses. Locating blocks, additional dowels or significantly larger bolt diameter is the answer, even if the clamping requirements of the original bolts were sufficient.
Seen a few cars with 'non hub-centric' wheel spacers that have sheared their wheel studs, too.

It's very simple. Spigots locate. Bolts / studs clamp the wheel to the hub which then becomes one unit and carries the load. 

Neither spigots or bolts support the car.  The bolts will break if they become loose as the clamping force releases and the bolts then become part of the load bearing system. I've lost two wheels on Alfettas because of this. One on the track and one on the road.
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

Duk

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2012, 08:45:47 PM »

It's very simple. Spigots locate. Bolts / studs clamp the wheel to the hub which then becomes one unit and carries the load. 

Neither spigots or bolts support the car.  The bolts will break if they become loose as the clamping force releases and the bolts then become part of the load bearing system. I've lost two wheels on Alfettas because of this. One on the track and one on the road.

Well, that's your opinion, you are entitled to it.
I'll stick with what I've seen and learned from heavy industry and automotively.

aggie57

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2012, 08:00:40 AM »

It's very simple. Spigots locate. Bolts / studs clamp the wheel to the hub which then becomes one unit and carries the load. 

Neither spigots or bolts support the car.  The bolts will break if they become loose as the clamping force releases and the bolts then become part of the load bearing system. I've lost two wheels on Alfettas because of this. One on the track and one on the road.

Well, that's your opinion, you are entitled to it.
I'll stick with what I've seen and learned from heavy industry and automotively.

It's not an opinion. Normally I don't bother with these types of exchanges except this is a real safety issue with many many examples of people getting into trouble because its not understood properly.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2012, 08:07:19 AM by aggie57 »
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

aggie57

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2012, 01:01:07 PM »
Here is quite a good article on the question:

http://www.crashforensics.com/wheelandhubfailures.cfm
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

Southern75

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2012, 06:54:13 PM »
MD,

wasn't concerned about the handling thing just the safety thing.

Handling can be affected by wheel offset but again the changes i want to make are fairly minor it's more a clearing interference thing.

I may not have to anyway as the wider rims i have the tyres will be stretched ...

I just though a tyre may rub on a suspension linkage ... but it's pretty close anyway...

I'll read that foresics article ... that will be interesting ...
Rust, nah that's not rust .... its iron oxide!!!

Alfas:
1977 Alfasud ti (race)
1980 Alfasud ti (race)
1987 75 V6 (toy)
2008 147 JDTM (sensible?)

Southern75

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2012, 06:58:59 PM »
Ok, now read,

does a double joint result in s ofter joint. It must do, mustn't it?
Rust, nah that's not rust .... its iron oxide!!!

Alfas:
1977 Alfasud ti (race)
1980 Alfasud ti (race)
1987 75 V6 (toy)
2008 147 JDTM (sensible?)

aggie57

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2012, 08:25:22 AM »
If done properly no reason it should.
Alister
14 Alfa's since 1977. 
Currently 1973 GTV 2000, a couple of Mercs,  a '14 Beetle (yes, seriously......), 2020 911 C2S (manual!)
Gone......far to many to list

scott.venables

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Re: Wheel spacers
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2012, 01:15:20 AM »
I've just measured a hub spigot and wheel and there is .008"/ 0.2mm clearance on the diameters.

If friction from tightening up the wheel nuts wasn't enough to stop the wheel moving across the hub face, then the wheel would move this 0.2mm each wheel revolution and the wheel nuts would eventually work loose.

Friction is enough.