Author Topic: 75 Performance.  (Read 53129 times)

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ARQ164 Shane

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2011, 09:03:21 PM »
Duk this should make you feel better :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBiT90eXW0Y&NR=1&feature=fvwp

 I like the bloke on the esclator . ;D
Hi Neighbour,
1973 L beetle "Tilly" sold
87 QV 75 ALFA 2.5lt sold
92 auto 164 3lt RIP
91 white 164 Q
89 164 Q part car

Duk

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #31 on: August 26, 2011, 04:14:36 PM »
Duk this should make you feel better :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBiT90eXW0Y&NR=1&feature=fvwp

 I like the bloke on the esclator . ;D

We've all had days like that guy  :P. Silly choice followed by lots of hard work that wore you out and then return to where you started  ::)

Duk

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2011, 08:00:10 PM »
Thought I'd add here, even though nothing much has happened.
I decided to scrap the Nissan ECU part of the project and go with an Adaptronic E420c (superseded by the E420d), for a few reasons.

1: The airflow meter is the input for acceleration enrichment in the early Nissan system. Obviously it works but the whole system become rather sensitive to plumbing volume. This can be gotten around by putting the AFM after the supercharger and intercooler. The problem is that any contaminants from the crank case ventilation system (that will vent into the superchargers inlet) will eventually foul the sensing element in the AFM.

2: There is no inlet air temperature correction for ignition timing. The hot wire AFM compensates very well for changing ambient temperature, but what I want is to be able to influence ignition timing as a direct result on inlet air temperatures. Part of keeping this engine alive will be by having absolute control of ignition timing in ANY condition. 1 of those nasty conditions is a heat soaked intercooler. The Adaptronic has a nice inlet air temp compensation map that allows just such a situation to be dealt with.

3: 5 miles of high tension ignition leads can easily be abolished! Best price I found for a decent set of HT leads for the V6 was about $350! $450 for the 'better again' set! Not only that, but the work load will be spread over 6 ignition coils instead of 1 that has losses through the distributor and the leads, but it will also make the engine bay much neater and allow some extra room once the distributor is gone (the Nissan dizzy was even boofier than the Alfa dizzy). I was actually nutting out a plan to make the Nissan installation coil on plug, but there was no guarantee that it would have worked.

4: Dual maps! The tuning approach I have planned has always had dual maps intended, 1 for water injection (wet map) and 1 without (dry map).
The approach being that I can have a safe, but still quite powerful 'dry map' but also a more powerful, via the extra knock resistance of water injection, 'wet map'. The difference between the 2 maps will probably be purely on boost ignition timing (more advanced) and won't be trying to show a cooler inlet air temperature via the IAT sensor, the water will be injected AFTER the IAT sensor.
I did have a plan for this with the Nissan set up, but it just added costs and complexity.

5: Water Injection. The Adaptronic has 3 pulse width modulated, 3 amp capable auxiliary outputs (8 configurable in total but 4 have to drive a relay for decent loads and aren't PWM capable) that can be configured to work as a function of all sorts of things.
For water injection, the best approach is to shoot for a water to fuel ratio, rather than say, a boost pressure to water ratio. The PWM outputs can be set up to drive based on injector duty cycle. My water injection system will use the FJO Water Injection solenoid valve that is intended to be driven like a fuel injector (pulsed open and closed) rather than trying to control water delivery amount via changing the behavior of the pump (like some/most systems do).
Again, I had a plan for this, but again, it added cost and complexity (but was already paid for  :P).

6: Vehicle Speed Sensor. Most decent factory systems (notice that the Motronic system doesn't) use the vehicle speed sensor input to tell the ecu when to start applying idle speed control (amongst other things like speed limiters  ::) ). Whether or not the Nissan system would recognize the Alfa speedo sensors signal I have no idea. It was just 1 more negative, but could probably have been gotten around.

7: I scored 1 for a good price and already have some experience with them on my twincharged MR2.  8)

Even though I am (sort of, I was going to be a first as far as I can tell :P) jumping ship, I still believe that for a relatively standard engine (tided up ports, mildish cam, extractors), a factory system like the Nissan/VL Commondore system could work and work well, even compared to the  Motronic (poxy small AFM and near impossible to find interfacing) and especially compared to 'Ye Olde' L-Jetronic, for my set up I decided that it was not worth the trouble. By the time I buy all that I need for the real time interface (Nistune) for the Nissan ecu and the set up the dual maps. (That would require an EEPROM chip with twice the standard 128kb memory (no big deal), that was programmed (read: need an EEPROM programmer) and a switching system. These are available, but obviously at $'s) I had paid for my Adaptronic E420c.

I also looked at using a Delco ecu from a V6 Commondore, partly because they are already distibutorless system and the earlier (VN to VR) use a MAP sensor load sensing but also because real time tuning interface can be achieved for about half that of the Nistune interface.
What put me off was their ignition system having a specific ignition module (part of the GM/Delco DIS system. The Nissan uses a 'dumb' module) that may not like a non GM coil on plug set up (a mate had 'fun' with Common#%ore's ignition module and it scared me  :-[). And again, the vehicle speed sensor interface.

Current plan is to get the Adaptronic set up with a decent tune (mainly road tuning), but without the supercharger. That will let me see where I'm at and allow a good comparison between NA and blo...... I mean, force fed  ;).

Wow, long post!  ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 08:48:01 PM by Duk »

shiny_car

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2011, 01:33:40 PM »
Complex, but makes sense at the same time! You still have your work cut out for yourself, but all part of the challenge.

Thanks for the update.

:)
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75 . 3.0 V6 . Alfa Red - Grey

Duk

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2011, 03:14:32 PM »
1 thing to note about doing projects like these is that the costs always add up quickly! I'm adding here to help any other aspiring project doers to understand real world project costs of 'just' doing a good quality installation of a new engine management system.
Note that I will be doing the installation myself. Paying for a good quality installation would add many dollars to the project costs.

Second hand Adaptronic E420c: $600
2 metre wiring loom: $111
2 Bar MAP sensor: $74

*Hall Effect sensor: $34US
*Coolant temp sensor: $16.25US
*Inlet air temp sensor: $20US
*Ignition module: $89US
*Plug and pin pack: $87.95US
*Pin crimping tool for above: $108US
*Wide band AFR sensor/controller (no gauge): $199US
*6 Bosch injector plugs: $34.50US
*Freight for above from DIYAutotune: $75.25

2 x pack of 4 Denso ignition coil plug kits: $65.48
8 x second hand 2008 Yamaha R6 ignition coils: $120.

With rounding of the US dollars straight to Aussie dollars (the difference is SFA), total costs for the engine management system and all of the bits and pieces is $1644.43, so far. There will be extra costs for the throttle position sensor and things like relays and any additional wire that I'll need, but I think I'm pretty much paid for in terms of installing the Adaptronic.
For a 'from scratch' installation of a programmable engine management system that converts to 6 individual ignition coils, has wide band AFR sensor input and a specialized crimping tool to suit the weather resistant plugs to ensure a top quality installation, I'm quite pleased with the above numbers.
Obviously I've bought some second hand parts to keep costs down and there is always a risk with that, but the computer just came back from Adaptronic via the previous owner after repairs (under warranty) to 1 of the auxiliary outputs. The biggest question mark will be the R6 coils. Firstly I don't know if they will even fit decently, but more importantly, most bike coils are to be used with CDI ignition systems and CDI coils can't be used with transistor switched ignition systems (they die very quickly from what I've read). I did find some info on the net that said that 2007 onwards R6's used transistor switched ignition systems, but that guarantees very little. We'll see.

Wiring largely from scratch like I will, should be a blessing with the Alfa. Firstly there will be all new plugs for every thing (no more brittle old Bosch plugs) This will allow me to make sub-looms for things like the ignition wiring and injector wiring. Secondly, all of those plugs will be attached directly to the new loom (with my million dollar crimping tool  :P), this saves cutting, baring some wire, tinning, slipping on some heat shrink, soldering and shrinking each and every connection (trust me, that adds a lot of time and frustration to the job!). And thirdly, with a few minor exceptions, only 1 wiring diagram to follow and figure out! When I did the Adaptronic into my MR2, it took me days to do the job and a lot of that time was figuring out how to connect the Adaptronic to the Toyota wiring looms. Imagine paying an Auto Sparky to figure out the 2 wiring diagrams and do the wiring connections.........  :o
« Last Edit: November 20, 2011, 04:24:35 PM by Duk »

Sheldon McIntosh

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2011, 03:33:12 PM »
Thanks Duk, excellent info as always.

I'm intrigued by the new crimping tool, can you post a link or pic?

Keep up the info please, always good to read info from the brave and stupid experts.

Duk

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2011, 03:45:39 PM »
I'm intrigued by the new crimping tool, can you post a link or pic?

http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/ratcheting-crimper-for-weather-pack-connectors-1420-gauge-p-365.html?osCsid=2848214a220b7c44a37b3170b16626ae its for the pins in the plugs that http://www.diyautotune.com/ sell. From the pictures I've seen, they look a lot like the weather resistant plugs that Narva sell here in Oz. When my bits and pieces get here I'll compare the 2 and see.

Keep up the info please, always good to read info from the brave and stupid experts.
Brave? No. Stupid? Yes. Expert? Only in stupidity  :P
« Last Edit: November 17, 2011, 03:56:27 PM by Duk »

MD

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2011, 04:22:45 PM »
Hey Duk stop laying claim to stupidy. I wrote at least three chapters in that book. Keeping it to ECU's I thought I would score a bargain by buying a Haltec Platinum Sports 1000 from the US which I did buy. All seemed fine until Mr Customs contacted me to say your purchase is over a thousand bucks and so you owe us import duty !! Now that's stupidity of the first order cause I knew about the criteria but since I developed K.R.A.F.T. in my old age, I forgot didn't I.

It's too tough to be perfect. :D
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse.

Duk

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2011, 07:03:36 PM »
MD, we are, all of us, always learning even better ways to perpetuate our own stupidity  ;D

Sheldon McIntosh

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2011, 09:11:15 PM »
Nice crimper.

Darryl

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2011, 10:29:19 PM »
Interesting connectors - thanks Duk. That crimp and seal in one go feature is nice. Delphi parts? Does anyone with a recent oz GM product (or a 159? ducking for cover now...) know if these are found on them?

I've spent too much time assembling impossibly fiddly connectors to want to do it ever again (Lemo connectors look really nice, and they are - so long as someone else assembled them! Having someone else to pay for them also helps :).

Re wiring looms etc - where do you buy, *wire* from? In particular a decent range of wire colours, and hopefully something suitable for automotive environment (heat/hydrocarbons/vibration) without going for full overkill (or being left wondering if that stuff from local auto shop is actually going to last). And of course, its nice not to have to buy 30m (or 100!) of each colour. Maybe the answer is the beer economy....

MD

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #41 on: November 18, 2011, 08:19:40 AM »
Well Darryl I do have a simple solution for you. If you buy Haltec,(spotters fee from Haltec would be appreciated  :D) they provide a complete loom for every pin out and it all comes pre wired to all the plugs that connect to the ECU. The job that remains for you is to trim the loom to its various locations and add the correct termination to the nature of the signal source.

Easier than crapping in bed and kicking it out with your feet as the saying goes..
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse.

Darryl

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2011, 06:12:08 PM »
Thanks MD. At risk of threadjacking - I was interested for rewiring reasons rather than ECU loom reasons, just wondered if anyone had found a good one stop auto electrics parts shop...

MD

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2011, 10:03:09 AM »
Darryl, PM sent.
Transaxle Alfas Haul More Arse.

Duk

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Re: 75 Performance.
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2011, 08:56:52 PM »
I got my order from DIYAutotune today  8). I love getting parts that I buy delivered, they're like presents  :D.
A quick look at the weather proof plugs has them looking exactly like the ones that Narva sell. The only difference is the price (+ freight  ;)).
The 4 channel ignition module (I'll only be using 3, waste spark ignition) is small! The box measures 69x49x35 with a flat aluminium heat sink about the same size an interior wall switch panel. It should be easy to find a home for it in the engine bay and is potted in epoxy resin so should be completely water proof. According to DIYAutotune it's made using Bosch ignition transistors which guys use with Megasquirt's.
I'll finish making my computer mount this weekend at work (my Jigsaw died) and then I'll finish making my under bonnet chassis brace. I want to use it to mount some of the original wiring and probably also the ignition module. Then I just need to figure out 1 plug that's part of the body wiring. I reckon it has the wiring for the coolant temperature, oil pressure gauge and switch, brake fluid switch and the fuel pump plug that was part of the engine's loom that I sold with the Motronic system. Once that's sorted, lots of wire running, cutting and crimping. But most of all, lots of DOUBLE CHECKING!  ;)