Alfa Romeo Owners Club of Australia Forum

State Divisions => Victoria => Topic started by: colcol on December 17, 2011, 11:23:31 AM

Title: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 17, 2011, 11:23:31 AM
In todays Age the liftout motoring section, Drive has in its Streetwise section, What's on around Victoria, they have a Article on the January 11th Alfa Romeo's owners club annual summer barbecue on the banks of the Yarra River from 6-30pm, located on Alexandra Parade, South Yarra, near Anderson Street Bridge, there is a picture of a proper Alfa Romeo, not a General Motors engined 159, not a Fiat engined 147-156, but a real Alfa Romeo, built in Italy, engines built in the same factory, all coming together in a package styled by Italian styling Guru, Guigario built for motoring enjoyment to the max, fun factor 100%, designed by the Genius the late,[and sadly missed] Dr Rudolph Hruska, who worked at the sports car division of Volkswagon, everyone salute and clap your hands, as there is a picture of the mighty ALFASUD, from the early 70's with the good looking blonde and the handsome man with sideburns, who else but Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Frank Musco on December 17, 2011, 07:29:45 PM
Go the MIGHTY ALFASUD! Sounds like it's time for some sideburns...
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: bix on December 17, 2011, 10:06:02 PM
Hang on a tick, a "real" Alfa Romeo you say. The section on Alfasud in my book says "4 cilindri orizzontali contrapposti, anteriore longitudinale". Now I consider myself a true blue ozzie (despite immigrant parents, but that's another story) and my Italian ain't what it should be, but that statement to me indicates a possible front-wheel drive layout with an engine configuration not disimilar to a very well known German brand started by a chap know as Ferdy to his mates. Dang, it don't even have double overhead camshafts! ...and this fellow you talk about, Dr. Rudolf Hruska, ain't an Italian family name that I recognise.
Let me know what you are smoking Colin, cos I could do with some of that!
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 18, 2011, 10:55:29 AM
You just have to own one, drive one and race one to understand what it is all about, Dr Rudolph Hruska was an Austrian, but he brought along a lot of good engineering, the Alfasud could have been a bland inline 4 with pushrods and rear wheel drive, but they chose the right path that made it the best handling small car in its class, and after Rudy retired from Alfa Romeo he worked at an Italian university in engineering, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Ray Pignataro on December 18, 2011, 05:56:32 PM
Colin I believe it was referred to as the car of the dcade in the day.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 18, 2011, 08:46:20 PM
And the only Alfa Romeo of the 70's that achieved that lofty award, hence the term 'Proper Alfa Romeo', Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: aggie57 on December 19, 2011, 07:35:11 AM
chomp chomp!!

Or was that the rust..... ;)
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 19, 2011, 09:04:45 PM
And Alfasuds used to rust and 105's, Alfetta's, Guillietta's, Fiat's, Lancia's, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Maserati's didn't?, All italian cars of that era were built of the same recycled rubbish steel that deputy Prime Minister Andreotti, set up a deal with the Russian's in exchange for Fiat technical know how to build Fiat's in Russia under licence and sold as hard to pronounce Russian cars and don't get me started on British cars, some Morris's and Vauxhauls were scrapped after 2 years, cause they couldn't pass their MOT's, isn't it great that competition between car company's has made rust a thing of the past, as built an unreliable rust bucket and you go broke, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: bix on December 19, 2011, 10:05:49 PM
I'm not saying that the Alfasud isn't an awesome car, I was merely querying what made a 'proper' Alfa. At the time the Alfasud was launched in 1972, many people questioned it being a 'proper' Alfa ie. breaking away from most previously known & trusted Alfa design principals. Despite the catastrophic rust issues (which IMO still mars Alfa's reputation) it proved itself reliable with great prowess on the track selling over 800,000 units.
In the mid-eighties however, the State was unable to continue funding Alfa Romeo which always operated in the red.
We continue to poo poo Fiat, however without them, Alfa Romeo would be just another dead-brand such as Triumph or Rover. Despite a FIAT engine, the 156 won European car of the year and European Touring Car Championship in years 2000, 2001, 2002 & 2003. It sold over 650,000 units and guaranteed a few years more in the old brand. Not bad for an improper Alfa.


Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: alfagtv100 (Biggus) on December 20, 2011, 12:05:33 AM
Quote from: bix on December 19, 2011, 10:05:49 PM
I'm not saying that the Alfasud isn't an awesome car, I was merely querying what made a 'proper' Alfa. At the time the Alfasud was launched in 1972, many people questioned it being a 'proper' Alfa ie. breaking away from most previously known & trusted Alfa design principals. Despite the catastrophic rust issues (which IMO still mars Alfa's reputation) it proved itself reliable with great prowess on the track selling over 800,000 units.
In the mid-eighties however, the State was unable to continue funding Alfa Romeo which always operated in the red.
We continue to poo poo Fiat, however without them, Alfa Romeo would be just another dead-brand such as Triumph or Rover. Despite a FIAT engine, the 156 won European car of the year and European Touring Car Championship in years 2000, 2001, 2002 & 2003. It sold over 650,000 units and guaranteed a few years more in the old brand. Not bad for an improper Alfa.

Good point. That could be why Colin owns a 156.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: aggie57 on December 20, 2011, 07:20:32 AM
Quote from: colcol on December 19, 2011, 09:04:45 PM
And Alfasuds used to rust and 105's, Alfetta's, Guillietta's, Fiat's, Lancia's, Ferrari's, Lamborghini's, Maserati's didn't?, All italian cars of that era were built of the same recycled rubbish steel that deputy Prime Minister Andreotti, set up a deal with the Russian's in exchange for Fiat technical know how to build Fiat's in Russia under licence and sold as hard to pronounce Russian cars and don't get me started on British cars, some Morris's and Vauxhauls were scrapped after 2 years, cause they couldn't pass their MOT's, isn't it great that competition between car company's has made rust a thing of the past, as built an unreliable rust bucket and you go broke, Colin.

I actually owned a Sud once Colin.  1976 1.2 Ti in red.  Great car.  Wonderful.  Yes it had rust issues, but so did nearly every 105 and Alfetta then and now.  An Alfetta sedan I owned in the UK needed a new sill only 4 years after it left the factory.  I was having a friendly dig...no harm intended.  

Oh - that Sud I owned.  Sold it after 3 months and bought a proper Alfa - a 2000 GTV (he he!!)
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Ray Pignataro on December 20, 2011, 06:51:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Cu4FGsJAJ-c#!
found this on you tube Colin enjoy
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 20, 2011, 09:01:10 PM
The 156 is a great car, 1998 european car of the year, Fiat motor, don't care JTS and TS great motors, 147, 2001 european car of the year, did all you Prius and Mondeo drivers hear that, our 147 is more worthy than yours,Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Sportscar Nut on December 20, 2011, 09:34:47 PM
Believe Colin needs some more Sud support here!

Agree that when launched, the Sud was not regarded as a true Alfa and had rust issues (didn't all 70's cars such as Datsuns, Holdens & Fords) but over time, is clearly one of the great Alfas. The boxer motors spin more freely than the twin cam engines and the cars are far better handling than any 105. Seriously flawed but brilliant car and the most 'fun' Alfa ever built (like an Italian Mini).

I am probably in the minority here but hope Fiat sells the brand to Audi as believe is being slowly killed by Fiat and look at what Audi have done to Lambos. 8C & concept 4C appears to be an attempt by Fiat to keep some value in the old Alfa name (and copy Lotus with the alloy tub bonded chassis etc). 156 is okay for a modern car but so boring except for the chassis which is the last remaining link to true Alfas.

My 3 cents worth!

Paul
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: aggie57 on December 21, 2011, 07:22:42 AM
Sud's are brilliant motor cars.   One of the best ever designed.  Period.   Just look at how practical they were as well as fun to drive and economical to run. 

In a way it was the workers in Turin who let the car and Alfa down.  If they'd understood how much potential it had and simply built enough of them to a decent standard things may well have worked out differently for the company.   
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: L4OMEO on December 21, 2011, 07:46:50 AM
My opinion of the Sud is probably best summed up by my signature below. I have added over a million kilometers to the collective odometer readings of this lot  ;D Many arguments are used to discredit its status as a 'real Alfa', frankly I don't care. When compared with the real 'real  Alfa's I've owned it stacks up fine thanks very much. Suds are just fantastic drivers' cars.

BTW my favourite is one I've driven but not owned - the 1300 Ti from around 1978. This had the 1350cc single-carb engine which had all of the turbine-smoothness and willingness to rev of the 1.2 that was gradually lost in the later 1.5s, coupled with most of the punch of the larger engine (somewhat optimistically referred to as the 'big block'  ;) ), and was built before they started adding more rubber into the suspension and steering (ever looked underneath an early Sud? Very little in the way of rubber bushes). I love the last of the line TiQs and so forth, but nothing in the Sud series compares to the purity of this model (IMHO of course!)
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 21, 2011, 08:43:11 PM
Autocar said that the Alfasud was the best handling front wheel drive yet, even though that was in the 70's, it was meant to be an economy car, not something that was fun to drive, economy cars of that era had pushrod in line engines, rear wheel drive [still!], 4 wheel drum brakes, leaf springs, recirculating ball steering, the Alfasud had a Boxer motor that was overhead cam, front wheel drive,inboard 4 wheel disc brakes, rack and pinion with adjustable steering, this car was built in a new factory at Pomigliarno De Arco in Southern Italy to soak up some of the unemployment there, it was not meant to be that good, look at the economy cars of that era, Vauxhalls, Hillmans, Simcas, nuff said?, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Evan Bottcher on December 21, 2011, 08:45:20 PM
Quote from: L4OMEO on December 21, 2011, 07:46:50 AM
(ever looked underneath an early Sud? Very little in the way of rubber bushes).

Don't want to sound like a pedant, but I'm intrigued by this one - in my recollection there were no changes to the suspension layout including bushes for any model Sud?  I thought they were the same all the way through (apart from the last of the 33s which changed the rear axle trailing arms).  Happy to be wrong.

My first car was a Sud, I met my now-wife because she drove a Sud.  We still own hers, it's now 'retired' to track duty and has done countless sprint days and five 6-hour relay races.  Fantastic handling, that deliciously revvy and eager boxer motor.  Even in standard form a Sud (or even a 33) will put a smile on your face.  There's as much Alfa spirit in a Sud as any of the 'proper' Alfas.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Evan Bottcher on December 21, 2011, 08:50:46 PM
I like this quote from Peter Robinson (Wheels magazine) - when he placed the Sud Ti at no.33 of his top 50 greatest cars ever:

"Steve Cropley, then a Wheels staffer, spent 14 hours at the helm of the Sud ti, ferrying it back from Adelaide to Sydney, and still he wanted me to experience the magic of a little jewel so eager that, even today, my heart beats faster remembering how alive it felt. On twisty McCarrs Creek Road the ti flew. The horizontally-opposed 1.2-litre engine made just 51kW, but none were wasted and all were eager. Rust (from crap Russian steel) killed the Sud, but for those who know, it still lives. Ask Cropley."
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 21, 2011, 09:14:07 PM
About 20 years ago, the rubber bushes in my 33 were a bit tired, so i replaced them with 'SUD' rubber bushes, they were meant to be a bit stiffer, but from what i seen there was no difference in my experience, the only differences being that the different parts makers had slightly different specs, depending on what rubber they were mixing up that day, on the 33, they used  rubber washers on the end of the bush, this was meant to stop noise travelling from the bushes up through the subframe, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Sportscar Nut on December 21, 2011, 09:31:54 PM
Great to see the 'Sudfisti' replies Colin, Evan, Alister and L4OMEO (PS thanks for the front light).

The other 'pearl' piece of engineering on the car is the centre point rack & pinion steering with inboard discs making the steering feel as good as any car ever made. From memory, only Citroen & Renault (??) managed to match this engineering feat.

Evan, have not seen a 1750 update for some time?? Hope is all going to plan.

Paul
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Evan Bottcher on December 21, 2011, 09:56:03 PM
Quote from: POC on December 21, 2011, 09:31:54 PM
Evan, have not seen a 1750 update for some time?? Hope is all going to plan.

Plan?  ???
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Sportscar Nut on December 21, 2011, 09:59:06 PM
Okay; I do understand :)
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: L4OMEO on December 22, 2011, 03:40:45 AM
Some great comments.

Evan - you're right, there were no changes to the actual specs and parts remained interchangeable, but some of the materials used did evolve as running changes. Two examples - the top suspension mounts went to softer rubber, and there were revisions made to bushes in the steering system and/or how the rack was mounted (my failing memory cannot recall specifics, but I have clear recollection of this being the case from back in the day when I was researching and getting my hands dirty on Suds).

My first car was also a Sud, largely on the strength of those very comments from Peter Robinson and Steve Cropley. My only Sud regret was not completing my 'Sudzilla' project, a ground-up racecar build that stalled when I discovered the severe limitations of my racecar building talent. The car was bought by someone who did finish it and it's still being raced in the Trofeo series in NZ.

Rory
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 22, 2011, 08:01:00 PM
Top gear \ 5th gear racecar driver and tester Tiff Needall, "The Alfasuds handling was superb", Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: agent86 on December 23, 2011, 04:08:09 PM
Just to throw the cat amongst the pidgeons could it be that the Sud was the inspiration for Subaru and if you throw in the 4 wheel drive versions you have the first WRX, pity they didn't rally it!
Cheers Agent 86
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Joe Garra on December 23, 2011, 05:12:28 PM
Interestingly, my daughter Olivia (8) asked last night which were my favourite Alfas that I had owned over the years. I replied , my 75 TS, my Sud, my 164Q and based on initial impressions , the Giulietta.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Sheldon McIntosh on December 23, 2011, 08:05:56 PM
One of the best proofs to me of how good the Sud is (I've only driven one, on the track, and it was sensational; but I've never driven a standard one on the road) was this article from Autocar magazine on their 10 greatest sports cars.   http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/boxer-engined-alfa-romeos/85937-autocars-greatest-sports-cars-1995-a.html#post563098 (http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/boxer-engined-alfa-romeos/85937-autocars-greatest-sports-cars-1995-a.html#post563098)

IMHO Autocar has always been the most authoritative automotive magazine.  That the only Alfa to be put alongside Lotus Elan, Lotus Esprit, 205GTi, Carrera RS, Aston Zagato, Ferrari F40, Ferrari 250GTO, Lotus 7, and Mclaren F1 as their 10 greatest sports cars, was the Alfasud, certainly says a lot.

If the rust hadn't been so bad, they'd probably be widely regarded as one of the best cars ever, much as the Golf GTi and 205GTi are.  There is no doubt that they're a 'proper' Alfa Romeo, whatever that may be.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Sportscar Nut on December 24, 2011, 06:38:31 PM
Your welcome to join me on the regular 'early Sunday morning runs' in the Sud Sheldon!

Can hassle the bikers through the twisty stuff up the Yarra Valley on 'B' roads in the Sud.

Paul
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: tjb0274 on December 25, 2011, 11:32:26 AM
Alfa have always been a little schizophrenic as a marque - we tend to remember the GTs, the great pre-war sports cars and the successful racers, but throughout AR's history the cars that brought in the revenue and built a cult following of repeat customers were well-engineered, economical saloons that were also great drivers' cars. Hands-down the best 105 for me is a Super - an incredible combination of performance and practicality, and somehow they also managed better aero figures than 911 Porsche...   

The Sud is from the same mold - an inexpensive, practical small car for the European roads that is also an incredible drivers' car and had real performance. As someone said above, if AR had got on top of the quality issues, especially in regard to the steel, the Sud would likely be spoken of in the same breath as the Peugeot 205GTI and the original Golf.

Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 27, 2011, 09:02:35 AM
And 40 years after its debut its still making waves, this years RDC - EBC Brakes 6 hour relay race, team SUD 4th team home, highest placed Alfa Romeo team, 'A real Alfa Romeo', Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: bix on December 27, 2011, 10:03:11 PM
Colin,
I reckon we should both enter our 156s for next year's 6 hour and give them a run for their money. What do you reckon?
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 28, 2011, 12:53:32 AM
I would back my 33 against my 156 anytime, as the 33 is lighter, lower centre of gravity, good aero, shorter wheelbase, better front suspension geometry, better brakes per kilo, won't eat tyres and brakes, the 156 might do 2 laps quicker than the 33, but then the tyres would overheat and the brakes would go mushy and then your lap times blow out, then you would break your lap times and get penalised and then all the Sud team would laugh at you and say i told you so, think of it like motor racing 40 years ago in Australia, Torana XU1 [Alfa 33 \ SUD] versus Falcon GTHO [Alfa 156], 33 good brakes and nippy thru corners, but not as quick on straight, 156 slower thru corners, brakes cactus after 1 lap, but quick in the straight, Alfasud and 33 suffer from too much Alfa Romeo engineering, where the 156 suffers from too much Fiat engineering, but more importantly, i think i have something else to do at the 6 hour anyway, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: aggie57 on December 28, 2011, 06:28:42 AM
Yes indeed you do Colin!!
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: bix on December 28, 2011, 09:31:55 PM
So do I take that as being a "no" Colin?
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 28, 2011, 10:13:38 PM
Don't let me stop you, get yourself a team of 147's and 156's for the EBC - RDA Brakes 6 hour and you will have a ball, i can't get leave from uncle Neil, i even tried the long service line, but he isn't buying it, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: aggie57 on December 29, 2011, 03:18:35 AM
And with many years of practice he's very good at it!  Taken at an AROCA event at Rob Roy Hillclimb several years ago.....
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: colcol on December 30, 2011, 02:21:12 PM
Very handsome man indeed, Ladies try and control yourself, stick him in a red jacket and he could be Mike Raymond, Colin.
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: aggie57 on December 30, 2011, 02:32:16 PM
Quote from: colcol on December 30, 2011, 02:21:12 PM
Very handsome man indeed, Ladies try and control yourself, stick him in a red jacket and he could be Mike Raymond, Colin.

And that a cameo from John Floyd in the Giulietta?
Title: Re: Proper Alfa Romeo
Post by: Victor Lee on December 30, 2011, 03:23:14 PM
That's JF alright.  He has the only Giulietta with blue wing mirrors!