Hi there,
It's time to come clean and admit that I can't shake this yearning for an early 105 Giulia GTV. Somehow 20 years has gone past since I first fell in love with a red stepnose for sale out the front of Monza Motors in Malvern... I couldn't afford one then so I settled for Fiat 124 Coupes and Spiders (restoring these and then removing my brain to buy an Alfa 164 guaranteed an ongoing state of financial decrepitude for the next 16!)...then I got distracted by Peugeot 205 gti's...and finally lured to RS Clio's...
Anyway back to the topic. Preferably I'm looking for a nice solid example, however I will consider those in need of a bit of work, but I'm not really interested in rust buckets or hastily patched up and painted bodges. I've been keeping an eye on the market over the past few years and have a pretty good idea of what cars are actually selling for. Recently I missed out on two of the best examples I've seen, one was a two times SA concourse winner, the other a newer concourse worthy restoration, both lovely cars. Unfortunately one was a little over my budget, the other I missed out on by a few days.
Cheers
DaveT
Email: david_thomas1@bigpond.com
Try Tony McKone (w) (02) 4577 5144, very well respected Alfa mechanic in Sydney. I think he is selling one. He probably worked on it under warranty too when he was at Alec Mildren Motors in the 60's!
it's a bad disease. ;D
(http://i43.servimg.com/u/f43/13/33/98/44/be67ea10.jpg)
Ooooh Pancho, that's Trevor Fay's car I'm kicking myself I missed, check out the engine bay, sorry don't know how to attach a pic but here's a link: http://www.international-auto.com/index.cfm?fa=ad&aid=275
Thanks for the lead Derek, will give Tony a call.
I was a bit shocked when I saw Trevor's for sale. He was one of those detail minded guys. A shame he had to sell.
Dave, not sure of your budget though this looks good.
http://www.healeyfactory.com.au/productsb/_products_sub_group_details.asp?id=1179
Yeah Pancho I haven't seen it in the flesh but that one looks great, but way, way over my budget. I'm not sure what to make of the fact that Trevor's car and the other concourse car that sold recently both sold for about half what that one's advertised for.
I may be wrong but I think at that price it may be sitting on the internet for a very long time. There's another white one (it's actually pearl but looks white in the photos) on drive, it's NQR in lot of areas but from what I can make out is quite a solid car, it's been for sale on drive for years and there's really only one reason it hasn't sold and that's price.
Hi Dave,
IMHO opinion there are very few around that are right. If Trevor's car has been sold someone got themsleves an excellent/brilliant car at a bargain price. (I wish Trevor all the best and hope he is as well as can be expected). Have a chat with Hugh or Bruno they will know if any good ones are around as the good ones are word of mouth within the various state clubs. The difference between a good car and an average car is now becoming many 10's of thousands unless you are very handy and can do the work yourself. Stretch and go further, the cars will not depreciate.
The car at the Healey Factory won the Vic concourse a couple of years ago. I think it runs a 2 litre engine BUT the body etc is superb. Exceptional! I know there is over $80k in the car. Offer low $40s and it will likely be yours and you will own one brilliant car, IMHO. BUT it is not original. The body is a masterpiece from Paul Rankin.
(If you buy it would be great it comes along to club events too!).
Best Regards
Phil
Boy how prices on stepnoses have escalated over the years. I only wish i had one in my collection, but suppose unless I get lucky I will have to be content with my series 1 1750 GTV, not that this is bad. Like too many I guess I like the idea of having an Alfaholics inspired GTA replica !! :)
Hi Dave,
I can only add to what the guys have been saying. Good ones are hard to find, I too have been looking for a while with no luck - wasn't aware of the two you mentioned (so maybe not looking hard enough :)) but that SA one looked awesome! I was so desperate to buy a "step nose" that I recently jumped on one of sorts - a GT1300 Junior - its ok as a daily runner and I got my "look" but already I have spent almost double what I thought was the bargain purchase price (well not quite but could get there soon) and I only have a patched up version if you know what I mean.............so to bring it to the standard of these concourse/restored/well kept ones I reckon I could easily have no change from anywhere upwards of $40k...? Moral? Buy the best you can, we all have budgets I know but stretch it.....and if you find two.......
Cheers
EZEE
Thanks guys for all the responses, it's made me think...which is something I try to avoid, especially on a Friday night...when I was restoring my 72 124 BS Fiat Spider (resurrected from a rolling shell with 50% of the parts missing to a two time concourse winner) I did as much of the work myself as I could. Mainly because I wanted to but also because I just couldn't afford to pay someone else to do it. In terms of actual monetary outlay when I sold it I was happy to get back close to what I'd put in...but of course I wasn't factoring in the countless hours of my labour! Obviously a car that's been restored predominantly by specialists will cost a lot more to restore than a car predominantly restored by the DIY enthusiast. In both scenarios when the time comes to sell, both parties understandably wish to recoup as much of their expenditure as possible, but for the enthusiast DIYer they're much more likely to accept less, because they've invested less. Just a thought and maybe only one of many variables that go into deciding what price to put on a well restored car.
I'm also aware there can be quite a step between a local concourse winning car, a national concourse winning car and an international concourse winner car...some of the cars at MotorClassica were of a truly gob smacking level, a grey E type Jag and a Bentley 8 spring to mind.
I certainly don't wish to devalue anyones car. I just wish someone would sell me there concourse winning stepnose for $5000 ;D
Cheers
DaveT
PS Phil thanks for your PM, I PM'd back but I don't know if you got it. Let me know.
Just a quick note on the car at the healey factory. It is my understanding that the 1600 cars all had allen key cam cover bolts not the regular bolts that appeared on the later models. Don't want to sound pedantic but it is the details that make such a car.
I guess there is also another factor to consider in respect of such things. One of the real problems in buying a concours winning car (be it of a standard suitable to win your local car club show/at a State or even National level), is that such cars generally don't get driven for fear of damage (by your own hand or others) and/or putting more miles on the clock.
To me that is the opposite in the purpose in having the car or even a motorbike of your dreams for that matter. Such cars IMHO basically belong in museums, a bit like a precious artwork or ultra rare piece of antique furniture, sadly never to be used and enjoyed.
So, in view of that, aiming a little lower enables the enthusiast to get what they want but allows them to drive the car, enjoy it for what it was designed to for, but is not going to be too concerned whether it picks up the odd stone chip, or that there is after a decent fang a little road grime, on the car. Afterall it can be cleaned off later on and paint chips touched in.
To me the cars shown as gorgeous as they are need to be taken for a decent Italian Tune up, on some nice windy roads. In the end, I doubt personally I could justify a purchase of $50K for a stepnose irrespective of how well it has been restored or the level of investment.
BTW Dave don't give up hope yet, while you may not find a concours winning stepnose for $5K, a guy I know down here only a year ago or so found one in Canberra for the princely sum of around $3K. Sure it is not perfect, the interior is wrong, it has filler in the nose, but no rusty daggy bits hanging off it, and an ugly glass sunroof, but it is basically straight, it is a 1600 Veloce Sprint in red and he drove it home to Tassie.
I have over the past few years seen the odd one or two cars coming up for sale on Carsales, for less than $10K so it still may be possible to find what you are looking for.
I agree totally David. I had exactly that problem when I finished my spider, every time I took it out I was worried about it, it was insane...What if I get a stone chip? What if it rains and I get the underneath dirty? What if I park it and someone opens their door on it or nudges it while parking? Inevitably in the 2 or 3 years post restoration all of these things happened and it became a chore to keep it 'concourse', I just wasn't enjoying it as much as I knew I should, in fact I enjoyed it more during the restoration than after. At the time I was looking to buy a house, so the decision was made to pass it on whilst at it's most valuable. The thing is though, the new owner is enjoying it as it should be, it still looks great but he's not bothered about keeping it concourse.
I guess for a new owner of a concourse car there's no baggage because they haven't been through the restoration 'journey'. So with that in mind I'd happily buy a concourse car (on the off chance it was within my budget) as long as the owner was OK with me using it as intended and not getting out the toothbrush after every drive.
I will consider cars that need a resto, if the body had little to no rust...an unlikely car I know...but preferably I'd like a good solid example I can enjoy and tinker with, so I don't end up doing the same thing as above.
Cheers
DaveT
Absolutely Dave, I too have been there, and am very slowly going there with some other projects I am working on. So yes, that always is the dilema. Hence in the end, I think I prefer tidy and very nice to concours, as I can live with and enjoy them as I had hoped to do.
Good luck in the hunt for the right Stepnose.
I agree, as long as the floor isnt rusting out of the car, there is no need to be able to eat off the underside. I am choosing not to do the whole underfloor strip on my Super as I could never keep it clean with the amount of daily driving I do in my Alfa.
Dave - might not be what you're after - BUT you could always consider buying this unit - it seems to be somewhat complete and original and then spend 15k on getting it up to scratch?
http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?R=11234801&__Qpb=1&vertical=car&__Nf=p_YearRange_Range|BTWN 0 1970.0&eapi=2&__N=1216 1246 1247 1252 1282 4294967249&silo=stock&seot=1&__Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_PriceSort_Decimal|1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&__Nne=15&Cr=4&Range=Price:Min,Max~1|Mileage:Min,Max|Year:Min,1970|Seats:Min,Max|EngineSize:Min,Max&trecs=8&__sid=13382C1613C1
I recall seeing it advertised for 12.5k and then it went to 13k. Anyone know of this car ?
Quote from: pancho on November 14, 2011, 02:39:31 PM
Dave - might not be what you're after - BUT you could always consider buying this unit - it seems to be somewhat complete and original and then spend 15k on getting it up to scratch?
http://www.carsales.com.au/all-cars/private/details.aspx?R=11234801&__Qpb=1&vertical=car&__Nf=p_YearRange_Range|BTWN 0 1970.0&eapi=2&__N=1216 1246 1247 1252 1282 4294967249&silo=stock&seot=1&__Ns=pCar_RankSort_Int32|1||pCar_PriceSort_Decimal|1||pCar_Make_String|0||pCar_Model_String|0&__Nne=15&Cr=4&Range=Price:Min,Max~1|Mileage:Min,Max|Year:Min,1970|Seats:Min,Max|EngineSize:Min,Max&trecs=8&__sid=13382C1613C1
I recall seeing it advertised for 12.5k and then it went to 13k. Anyone know of this car ?
The first sentence in the advert should ring alarm bells...why would you make such a statement?
I read that quickly and though - huh ? What did I say wrong.
"Probably the only Alfa 105 Veloce left in Melbourne,"
Yeah, perhaps the owner might not know much about GT's or is using it as a marketing ploy. I recall seeing another seller market his GTV as the 'rare' 1300 engined model. It was a bit of a Frankenstein GTV - but even though I emailed him and pointed a few things out he didn't care and continued to falsely advertise the car. As with everything - buyer beware.
Dont want to diss it too much but 'rust under doors', and those bubbles on the stepfront say 'painted over something real nasty...'
Thanks Pancho, yeah I've been steering clear of that one precisely for the points you, Phil and Derek have made. Unfortunately the ad wording doesn't inspire confidence and from the photo's at least it does looks like it could be hiding some horrors...I think the owner would have to be very negotiable to get some interest happening with this one.
Yep, I agree, and I think it can be guaranteed it is not the only one left in Melboune !! This sort of car two/three years back probably would have been listed for 1/2 the sort of asking price that it now is sporting. My brother in law sold his basically very tidy GT Veloce Sprint back in 2002-3 for about $6-7k. It was definitely better than this one.
With one at that price you would want to go over it very carefully. IMHO, the one Pancho bought, from appearances would have been a better purchase (value for money), and yes I know how much work (time and I sure $$$) that this car is taking to bring it back to its glory.
That is the problem with our old 105s, they can cost a lot to bring up to the desired condition.
I'm interested in what you guys think of this idea...
I've decided I'm not too bothered about originality, I can understand why cars restored to original spec with their original engine command a premium and part of me wishes to see as many of these cars kept original as possible. The other part of me just wants to have fun in a car I love the look of and really enjoy driving...in short I'm finding it very hard to resist the lure of a quick step front with well sorted suspension and brakes in the vein of a GTA rep...yes Pancho I have for a long while now been reading your threads....with secret, drooling jealousy! In fact I came very close to buying your car when it first popped up for sale...the only thing preventing me was I didn't have a bathroom at the time and for the first time in my life I did the responsible thing and fixed the bathroom before buying another car...what an idiot!
Now I might be about to be thrown off the board, scolded and ridiculed for this suggestion, but I was just looking at ebay (always dangerous) and there's a couple of decent looking GT Juniors on there. I was wondering, as I'm sure other have before me, how difficult/expensive it would be to 'stepfront GTA' a Junior, looking at the Alfaholics site I'm estimating $4000 - $5000. What are your thoughts on this, a viable alternative or a sacrilegious frankensteining of what are in their own right lovely 105 coupes?
Cheers
DaveT
Dave, it depends on what you want to do here. It's a very slippery slope - let me tell you from first hand experience as I am sure you are aware. ;D
What do you want to upgrade and what do you want to achieve ?
Others will also most likley advise - but for me personally I fear that $4-5k wont go very far if you are getting it done externally and want something that wont either break something when you give it some stick and or lack in one department. i.e. if you do the engine up to get some good power ~160 and upwards, then you need to look at suspension and brakes and bushings and and and.... get a spreadsheet together and start pricing things up to see if it's worthwhile.
From what I've seen online at the moment (stepfront wise) I haven't seen anything thats good value. I did however see a nice white Stepnose a few weeks back that didnt meet reserve at 27k on ebay.
Dave, I know what you mean, I too am not buying any cars nor have for at least 4 years now !! Sacre blueau ! But regrettably I have a whole house to restore, so definitely no funds, not even at the moment (still) for the 3 projects I have underway, at different stages.
However, your idea of a GTA rep stepnose, like so many that have been built up, damn those Alfaholics guys ;D, yes I too would love one in a flash. So, and back to your idea of re-creating a stepnose out of a flushnose Junior, you wouldn't be the first one to have thought of this idea.
Definitely the Alfa purists would say no way, don't go there, but on the other hand, there is a thread on the AlfaBB about this guy with obviously very deep pockets who is building from scratch a full alloy bodied Stepnose with a very serious driveline, suspension, brakes etc etc and this car is being done from a base 2L GTV. So anything is possible for sure.
In terms of costs, in the first instance there is the change to the front, assuming that the bonnet is the same, it would only be changing to the front top panel, guards for the vertical park lights, grill set up and perhaps hinge assembly. Definitely some complex metal work but not impossible. But then of course there are all the other costs for parts etc to build a GTA rep. The bottom line being just how far you wanted to go and the limits of your budget.
Personally I don't have any real issues with the idea, it would be your car afterall. Given that there are a number of very interesting GTV projects around at the moment, such as the guy who is intending installling the driveline of a late model Maserati into a 1750 GTV, and the guy over in WA who is installing a V8 Ferrari into a Stepnose. There is a guy over in the US who took the bodywork off a '72 GTV and put it onto a GTV6 chassis. So anything is possible I guess.
Thanks Pancho and David. I know where you're coming from with the slippery slope thing, and yes I may be teetering on the precipice of it. The way I was thinking was it seems a good Junior can be picked up for much less than a similarly good step front, so if the rest of the Juniors body is good (not worried about perfection but straight and solid with pretty good paint) I wondered how much it would cost just to change the front to a step/GTA front. I estimate about 4 to 5k just to do this, but if the intention was to leave the rest of the car largely unchanged, I thought for a fraction of the cost of a concourse step front I can probably have just as much fun with a 2ltr Junior that's been 'step fronted'.
Thats a lot of Moolah for a nose job.
You're going to need new front guards (the stepnose ones are different in the blinker area, new bonnet and new nosecone, perhaps a new radiator crossmember as well as a new Undernose frame (not sure what this is called). ~ at least 4k in panels and shipping alone. New grill centre, new grille sides and perhaps new headlight rings as well as blinkers. - looking at I'd say over 5k for all that + labour.
Funnily enough I will be cutting the front end off my Stepnose and replacing with NOS panels - SO you could buy my front end and get it fixed up.
Even after this you will only have a visually changed car.
Yeah it is a lot of money for a nose job and I dare say a can of worms would be opened during the procedure, inevitably leading to the 'need' for all the other GTA goodies...
It's starting to get slippery and I'm not even at the start of the slopey bit...
I'm getting excited, I need to restore patience, calm and logic...just not too much, would anyone ever buy an old Alfa if they were too patient, calm and logical?
How's the search going Dave T.
If your prepared to really roll your sleeves up then you might consider bringing this back to life (wart's and all):
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/ALFA-ROMEO-Giulia-Sprint-GT-Restoration-Parts-/390366610030?pt=AU_Cars&hash=item5ae3a9c26e
The patina suggests that it wont be hiding much!
It's hiding lots, I shudder to think of the cost of reviving this car to a registerable with the new laws now in place.
Thanks Andy, yeah the owner of this one PM'd me last week, it's popped up on ebay 3 or 4 times recently, I guess never meeting reserve. From the pics it looks like the body could be a money pit but I'm planning to have a look at it anyway, could be a good parts car...although I'm not really sure why I need a parts car just yet...doesn't hurt to be prepared though does it :P
Pancho, did you have a look at this car when you were looking, if so what were your thoughts, also what are the new laws of which you speak?
It's best you go see the car for yourself. I did - twice; but it wasn't for me.
New laws for re-registering cars are far more strict with regards to bodywork/repairs - the repairers have to sign off on the work and can be/are liable for any issues brought about due to their repairs or lack of down the track.
We don't have such laws in place here in Tassie ;D, and surely if one uses a reputable restorer that wouldn't be an issue. What happens also if one wishes to restore a car themselves, do such laws apply ???
What exactly were the problems with this car Pancho, for I have seen, based on the photos both here of this car and those restored both here on this forum and the BB far worse examples brought back to life (ie. Rossano's, Pete and Daveydogs GTVs, though obviously I havn't seen this car in the metal unlike you. To me and only based on the photos, it seems to good to be just a parts car, but perhaps I am wrong ??
My 1750 GTV needs new doors (have one, need to find one more), a bootlid (found one of these as well), new front cill panels like this Stepnose (have them already from Classic Alfa), but I am sure I am going to need to take the old cills off and make repairs to the inners (again Classic Alfa or Alfaholics have these), as well as new front floor pans (ditto re being available), and repairs to the sway bar mounting area, and rear wheel arches. I will need to retrim my car, but in any restoration project I would allow for this sort of thing, ditto a gearbox rebuild (but having done my Super's I know what is involved).
Is this car missing any of its important trims ?? Undoubtedly it will require mechanicals (driveline and suspension) but again with any cheap entry purchase for restoration I would expect you would need to allow for this. So unless this car has suffered from major accidents (ie. chassis is not straight), to me I would have thought it should be possible. Especially more so, depending on the final desired standard and/or ability to do work yourself.
Just to add another pic of my GTV or two so you can see its current visual condition to better understand where I am coming from.
one more
The interior
Quote from: pancho on November 23, 2011, 10:16:16 AM
It's best you go see the car for yourself. I did - twice; but it wasn't for me.
New laws for re-registering cars are far more strict with regards to bodywork/repairs - the repairers have to sign off on the work and can be/are liable for any issues brought about due to their repairs or lack of down the track.
Is there a link to the relevant VicRoads website page that you could post? I'm wondering how this would effect cars off the road for long periods but in the same ownership throughout.
I think this might help.
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/Registration/BuySellTransferVehicles/CertificateOfRoadworthiness/
I brought an old (over 35 yrs) car, which was off the road for over 20 yrs, back onto the road a litte while back. This car was given to me free of charge and I had to have the previous owner (friend) sign a letter stating the fact and free of charge (ie no stamp duty). Vic Roads imposed a $500 value (registration value) on the car, so stamp duty is whatever $500 was 4%?). All is needed for registration as stated by Vic Roads is the RWC and statement of ownership. If same ownership, no problems other than having the RWC.
Neil
http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/NR/rdonlyres/7A14DDDC-3DF3-4ADD-9821-B8C7816777A3/0/VSI26web.pdf
Q. I just bought a second hand car and the registration has been cancelled. How do I go about re registering the car in my name?
A. You will need to make an appointment at a VicRoads Customer Service Centre where you will need to present the car for inspection as well as provide the appropriate evidence of identity and ownership documents as well as pay the relevant fees. See Light vehicle registration.
After checking out Vicroads website they may not be new laws as such, my apologies. I'm sure there there are many different situations here but I'll take the most common - If you take a car to be repaired by a workshop for mechanical or bodywork they will sign off the RWC, if you do it all yourself then it will still require a signed RWC. From what I am told Vicroads are doing more and more spot checks on cars now post RWC - so workshops are less inclined to sign off on dodgy repairs. Reputable shops won't do dodgy fix's on a car as their butt is on the line when they sign off. I don't work for vicroads, so call them if you want more info. In Sydney your car must be inspected every year for registration compliance - unless it's less than 3 years old (from memory).
The car in question needs to be seen in the flesh - that's all I will say.
Interestingly, I've just transferred the registration on a 1999 car with vic registration that only expired 6 months ago - they have all the car's details on file, but I had to take the car to a vicroads office and have the Colour, Vin and Engine numbers verified, as well as the RWC etc because more than 3 or so months had elapsed since expiration.
Which is the same process I had to go through earlier this year getting the Super back on the road - it had last been registered in Vic more than 10 years ago, and they'd somehow lost all the VIN / Engine number details on the car - but had a sketchy record of it based on the old plates.
Having said all that - at the vicroads office they were paying alot more attention to the roaring beast of a skyline the guy before me was trying to register, than my 60's relic with 'alfa-mildew' air-freshener.
<Anti Thread Hijack> I'd also dearly love a GT even in ramshackle condition in the shed just to leer at now and again </Anti Thread Hijack>
Perhaps these restos are a little like giving money to help save a Panda - let's say %40 of the resto cost is 'I fixed up my car and it's a shiny ripper of a thing and I Gurn with delight at every throttle blip' and the rest is 'I saved an endangered species' :) If you buy one that's falling apart and carefully bring it back to stable condition through artisan patronage or elbow grease in the back shed - what a philanthropist (philalfthropist ? ) you are !
Of course, everyone's entitled to my opinion :)
Cheers, Scott.
Scott, it's the same in NSW - after 3 months of no rego you have to have the car inspected.
In Sydney a long time ago they used to drag your car over the pits and they were really thorough - anything remotely needing attention would warrant a rejected stamp on your paperwork. Now I am not sure, I haven't tried to re-rego a car in at least 12 odd years.
I think it's all for the better - I see some god awful old bomb rust buckets out there and think to myself - I really hope you don't have to perform an evasive/defensive vehicle manoeuvre in a hurry
No more jacking this thread by me - good luck David! ;D
I appreciate all of your opinions. Advice from knowledgable, unbiased, like-minded enthusiasts who have been down the same path before is worth its weight. I also don't have a problem with the thread being jacked for worthy input about related topics. I'm hoping to get one of my 205 GTI's back on the road soon, so I'll be going through the RWC/VicRoads inspection thing...the awesomest thing about 205's is they're galvanised and the two I have are still in their original paint with not a hint of rust...imagine it...I can even drive them in the rain!
DavidM your 1750 looks pretty good to me, but I guess the photo's only tell half the story. I see you have a 124 AC coupe in your stable, you're a man with taste, how long have you had it, what's it like, where'd it come from and what do you plan to do to it?
I had one for 10 years, got it in about 95, totally original, still in it's original Positano yellow paint with 65,000 miles on the clock. Many, many fond memories of that car...when they're straight, with no rust and going well, they're brilliant. In fact, and I probably shouldn't admit this here but I looked at a few stepnose GTV's when I had the AC, two of them with good bodies and very reasonably priced...only problem was each time I'd get back in my AC and be blown away at how much better it drove. I took this to indicate that mechanically these particular GTV's were just very tired. I'm still yet to drive a well sorted one...and now I'll be jumping back into a 205 gti or the RS Clio, which maybe isn't a great idea...perhaps I should ride my bike when I go to look at GTV's ;D
Here's another one out of Unique Cars. If it was done by the 105 Factory it will be well sorted.
Hi Derek + guys,
again without hijacking the thread but keeping the conversation relevant I too saw this ad in UNIQUE Cars I think last month (?) but what are your thoughts....and the rest of the guys writing here about a 2 litre engine "upgrade", "GTA type box" and other things that are changed on these cars.........?
- remember I am not mechanically talented but consider myself an enthusiast......should the engine remain original? does it matter? these are questions I keep going through when I consider a purchase....so far have stuck to original on the engine front btw...
Cheers
Emmanuel
Quote from: DaveT on November 23, 2011, 06:49:02 PM
DavidM your 1750 looks pretty good to me, but I guess the photo's only tell half the story. I see you have a 124 AC coupe in your stable, you're a man with taste, how long have you had it, what's it like, where'd it come from and what do you plan to do to it?
I had one for 10 years, got it in about 95, totally original, still in it's original Positano yellow paint with 65,000 miles on the clock. Many, many fond memories of that car...when they're straight, with no rust and going well, they're brilliant. In fact, and I probably shouldn't admit this here but I looked at a few stepnose GTV's when I had the AC, two of them with good bodies and very reasonably priced...only problem was each time I'd get back in my AC and be blown away at how much better it drove. I took this to indicate that mechanically these particular GTV's were just very tired. I'm still yet to drive a well sorted one...and now I'll be jumping back into a 205 gti or the RS Clio, which maybe isn't a great idea...perhaps I should ride my bike when I go to look at GTV's ;D
Without wanting to hijack the thread once more re my own cars, it might be better if I answer your questions via a PM. There is quite a bit of history re both, suffice to say I have owned my AC for 31 years and the GTV for 14 years.
Re Emmanuel's questions, from my experience and understanding in essence there are two schools of thought on this. One side, and usually the purist element goes with staying all original and then there is the other side, which relates to its your car and you can do what you wish to with it. If that means modifying mechanically or otherways it is ok, well perhaps as long as it doesn't destroy the car.
From a sale point of view and perhaps especially at the top end of the market, original cars, with all matching numbers (engine, driveline, interior/exterior including either original colour or the very least original period manufacturers colour), will generally command the higher price. However, like all there are exceptions to the rule and totally well executed GTA reps with say full Alfaholics gear will equally command high prices. Don't know the Unique Cars one for sale.
I think this is on topic in the sense that it helps to know what to look out for and what is of value...
Most of these cars now have 2L engines it seems. That being said, the Alfa Archives never listed an engine number with each chassis number so all you need is a 1600 engine number that falls within a series range and your car could have 'matching numbers'. The 1600s are out there, I have 4 in my garage... although a couple need to be reseated. Some things make complete sense to upgrade like the suspension, but these 1600 engines are sweet engines and a lot of fun, which is why I am sticking with the original in my Super even though I have a 2L sitting around as well.
Not sure about the "GTA type box" though I would say it would not deminish value at all. I guess its close ratio with lightened gears? It also has the GTA type heart and grille by the looks of it. I don't think anyone would say the Unique Cars one is bad looking at all!
Gary Pierce in Melbourne has the best original spec one I reckon and that'd would sell for more than any GTA rep I would think. But its all opinions isn't it? :)
Yes I think Gray Pierce's GTV is in a league of its own in terms of both originality and finish, a truly stunning car and I think justifiably worth a premium. But it is hard to know what value to place on GTA-esque GTV's, is a 2 litred, bumperless/hubcapless GTA-esque GTV worth more or less than an original 1600 GTV in the same condition? Then there's the full on Alfaholics replicas, I did a quick add up of all the shiny bits and hooley dooley my eyes are still watering. Knowing what's involved and having an idea of the levels of performance/handling/braking achievable, I think these cars should justifiably command high prices on resale.
The one thing I find very odd, is why people leave cars for sale, for months (sometimes years), at the same price, it doesn't make any sense to me. I put one of my 205 GTi's up for sale on Sunday and it sold on Tuesday. I don't think this was because the car was under priced, but because I had a good idea of where the market was and I met it. I gave it the mother of all details, took some nice shots of it, was upfront and honest about the cars condition and advertised it with good exposure. The first person who saw it bought it. This is the 4th classic car I've sold in 7 years and they've all sold within 2 weeks. I think if a car's for sale for any longer and you've done all the right things - good photo's, honest/upfront write up, good exposure, the only reason it hasn't sold is price. I guess this is where 'no reserve' ebay sales really give the true value of what the market is prepared to pay. The white stepnose recently on ebay failed again for the 4th or 5th time to reach reserve, and a white junior failed also for the second time to meet reserve, each time they reached roughly the same amount as the previous auctions before running out of puff.
Cheers
DaveT
Hi Dave,
In answer to your question - IMO - No.
It all depends though. What do you want the car for? Investment or ultimate fun? You cannot have both. Answering that question will provide focus. There are no wrong decisons here only wrong choices. (Been there and done that ALOT! ;D)
Best Regards
Phil
There is a new barn find at Manning Motors (Sydney) you might be interested in Dave, it would be a restore job though but it looks complete. Rob is a nice guy to deal with.
X2 re what pancho says. Rob is really laid back and grt to deal with/talk to. The photos of his latest find show a gt that is definitely worth restoring. He knows of a couple more as well out there.
X3. I trust Rob!
he's allright...for a Sydney-sider.
Thanks guys
Im just an enthusiast like the rest,,,just in a bigger scale.
and= = - = Gee thanks Evan
I know your in SYDNEY at the moment and its raining
And its your shout for coffee at Phillip Island next weekend.
Robert
Hi guys,
Yes I've been following Rob's 'tree find' GTV posts on AlfaBB, great find and great read.
At the moment I'm not really set up/prepared to take on a full resto. I am still keeping an eye out for the right car, but have been pre occupied with trying to get a garage built whilst doing an engine rebuild on my 205 gti.
Anyone else find they always seem to be reading about someone discovering something interesting, never the one to actually discover? Last week on an early 911 forum I read about a couple of enthusiasts discovering a pre production 911E with an interesting racing past resting in a barn and pig stye in Scotland.
Dave
I watch that show pickers every week and I dream like a fool that I'll find a forgotten Alfa Romeo storage barn full of NOS items and original 105 GT's going for crazy cheap. My barn find - well 'Kennards Storage' find was sensational (if I may be so modest ;D) - I still check the original pictures and pinch myself.
I found that barn many years ago (well kind of) that you are talking of Pancho, but regrettably despite some efforts they went to another guy. In the barn was a early GT body semi complete, a complete GT Veloce and a complete S1 1750 GTV. The guy who bought them all, went on to collect quite a few more. Despite moving some on, he still has a few and heaps of parts. He is one of the guys I mentioned to you last night.
Hang in there DaveT, they still seem to turn up, occasionally. I too remain hopeful. A guy down here in Hobart who has posted here in the past, like you is into 205 GTis (ran one a couple of times in Targa) etc. A couple of years ago he found his GT Veloce in Canberra and bought it and drove it home. The price, less than $4k. It is a bit mucked around with in the interior, definitely has some filler in it, but basically quite a nice car.
Quote from: Derek Entesano on December 06, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
Here's another one out of Unique Cars. If it was done by the 105 Factory it will be well sorted.
Has anyone seen this car in the flesh????????????????
Quote from: twistybits on March 02, 2012, 11:54:21 AM
Quote from: Derek Entesano on December 06, 2011, 03:13:22 PM
Here's another one out of Unique Cars. If it was done by the 105 Factory it will be well sorted.
Has anyone seen this car in the flesh????????????????
Pretty good car that is well looked after, but the interior is tired, resprayed about 15 years ago so the body isn't pristine either. I liked it. Interesting colour that I haven't seen before , just a pity it isn't more original mechanically and it's a RHD conversion. The owner has a few nice cars, a fulvia, flavia and an elan filling the shed that proved to be something of a distraction.
A saucy little something was supposed to arrive on the back of a truck today and I was getting all excited to show and tell...
Alas, I just had a phone call to say I have to wait another 17.35 hours...aaaaahhhhh the anticipation's killing me!
So ETA is now 6.30am tomorrow morning...when, with all things going well, the neighbours will be thrown bolt upright in their beds by the inglorious sound of a strangled (dirty socks) Alfa twin cam running on 3 cylinders spluttering its way into my driveway....HOORAH ;D
Dave
AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH - Good purchase Dave !!! - I was wondering when it would surface, I almost went to check it out. ;D
Welcome to the club.
Pictures, we want pictures Dave as to what you have been able to liberate ;D
is it from SA? looked ok in the pics - is it?.
Yes it was the 67 Giulia Sprint GTV in Goolwa SA.
10 hour drive there and back to view a car I hadn't seen a photo of and knew very little about...hmmm, is this normal Alfisti behaviour?
Here's an abridged version of events (better photos to come):
I spied the ad in gumtree on the evening of Friday March 2nd and was on the road at 8am Sunday wondering what the hell I was doing.
Arrived in Goolwa SA at 6pm completely knackered after having numerous tailgating incidences on the Dukes (of Hazard) Highway, seems anything goes as soon as you're over the border.
Took poor little Bertie (yes I've already given it a cutesy name) for a painful test drive involving seized brakes, 3 cylinders and a 40kph top speed.
Made an offer on the car which was turned down. Spent a windy and rainy night in a tent in a paddock with the worlds biggest hunstman.
In the morning helped John the owner take Bertie to 'Jimbo' who flushed the brakes and chuckled a lot.
Rode my bike to Hinchinbrook Island and Victor Harbour, got caught in the rain on the way back, met John at Jimbo's and drove Bertie back for a slightly less harrowing second test drive.
Made a second offer, refused.
Went to the pub with John and had a lovely evening not talking about the Alfa (apart from when I snuck out the door to speak to Phil Nash and ask him what the hell I was doing).
Woke up the next day, packed up everything and found the huntsman was now a hitchhiker.
Drove through 60k of roadworks at between 25 and 40kph, gnawing through the clio's steering wheel.
Clipped a stick at 110kph which flicked up and dented the side of the Clio's door.
Had a heart attack every time I opened the fuel filler flap...the favourite hidey spot for my hairy hitchhiker.
Got home completely frazzled by the whole experience.
Spent the next week uming and ahing... I'm very good at this.
Saw that it was now advertised with photos on the SA club site and started panicking... I'm good at this too.
Spoke to John again who asked if could send the photos I'd taken to other interested parties...umm, no!
We chatted some more, then some more the next day and finally a deal was struck.
Until the thing arrives, hopefully intact, it hasn't sunk in that I've actually bought one...it's only taken 20 odd years.
I have the completely unlikely idea that I'll try and get it on the road in time to take it up to Auto Italia...will know more on its chances tomorrow.
Dave
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/edwards11-680x510.jpg)
Well done Dave!!
You're lucky as I almost bought this over the phone sight unseen to replace my project shell! - but I never got photos, no wonder! :D
Good stuff Dave! There were lots of people tempted by this one. Looking forward to the better pics. I can email you any of the literature you want for this model. Did you send of the chassis number to the Alfa Archives? I'd be interested to see when it was made. I'm starting to keep track of all the RHD stepfront GTVs.
Hi
congratulations great find, great story - like everyone else would love more photos and details.
Can relate to the call to Phil N, I have done the same on a few occasions. Great guy.
About to embark on a restoration on one of these so more information shared the better.
Oh and yes, all alfisiti are like this.... ;D
Emmanuel
So Dave did it arrive this morning??
Bertie arrived this morning at 6.45am...a coughing, farting, recalcitrant old codger, 1100 odd kg (plus bog)
I swore I wasn't going to fiddle with him today...but then I thought I'll just give him a quick wash, then I thought how about a vacuum.
Then I thought I'll just get the toolbox out...
Before I knew it I had a growing list of things to get it roadworthy. These are the things I've discovered so far:
- Needs a new windscreen
- Tie rod end boot
- Headlights, instrument lights, reverse light and number plate lights and interior lights all not working (have twirled all fuses and cleaned connections)
- Engine oil leak(s), not dripping, but wet, hard to tell where it's coming from but I think mainly back of engine and sump gasket
- Brakes have been flushed and aren't seizing anymore but one caliper is missing a mounting bolt and I haven't had the wheels off to check the pads and discs, so might be some work there
- Drivers door doesn't lock
- Alternator not charging...looks like it might just need a new fan belt, have adjusted the current one, but appears to be out of adjustment
- And of course it's running like crap, on 3 cylinders and not happy. After reading the recent thread on ram tubes I think this may be due to the dirty oily socks... too much fuel... not enough air... fouling the plugs?
I think I'm going to whip the socks off, clean the spark plugs and see how she goes. But then I have to come up with another filter arrangement quick smart. I have parts of the original system but missing all the hoses and the connection from the filter to the plenum.
So what are peoples thoughts, I have a week and half to get him roadworthy for Canberra, can it be done?
I like to fiddle, and the plan was I would do all the fiddlin', as and when I required, taking my time, doing bits here and there, with the plan to get him on the road without doing a full restoration. But now with the 105 50th anniversary at Auto Italia a possibility, I'm getting all wobbly at the knees at the thought of seeing him up there amongst his brethren.
A quick run down on a few of Bertie's faux pas:
- Currently running a 1750 engine and diff and wheels, but apparently original 1600 gearbox (might be able to get hold of the original engine and wheels from Adelaide)
- Currently running a 2ltr console...oooh dear...some yucky black vinyl over the dash and a clock...who the hell cares what the time is in a 60's sports car?
- Crappy grey carpets
- Bertie appears generally rust free and straight, but he has had a repair to the petrol tank surround and has let his waistline go with some filler, doesn't appear anything serious but he could do with a nip and tuck here and there
- He's also showing some crows feet on the front guards and has been painted in Holden 'Alpine White', oh the humanity, next they'll be building engines for us...
Thanks all for the kind words.
Derek thanks yes I will get on to the archives, although I remember last time I asked it took about 3 months.
Pancho, I too was about to buy it sight unseen...but then I remember promising myself a few years back that I would never buy a car without seeing it. Glad I held it. Let me just say, the ad wording was a little 'optimistic', it's not a bad car but it does need a tincy wincy bit more work than just an interior refurb to be a concourse car.
You asked for pics...
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1484.jpg)
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1480.jpg)
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(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1425.jpg)
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1528.jpg)
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1500.jpg)
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1499.jpg)
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(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1528.jpg)
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1521.jpg)
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(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/IMG_1493.jpg)
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(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/Underneathstraightandprettymuchrustfree.jpg)
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n571/daviet73/68%20Alfa%20Giulia%20GTV/1750motor.jpg)
Hi Dave,
It looks GREAT! Well done! You write a great story. Now that I am editor, I would really like to have an article in the club magazine about your adventures. Your words are passionate, funny and down right scary! Give me a call so we can tee-up a time for me jot some notes down! Welcome to the rarified atmosphere of 1600 GTV ownership. They are a great car!
Best Regards
Phil
PS Marco Fazio will generally turnaround build information requests in 48 hours.
PPS Pancho, how about we three get together for a run and cup of coffee in the 1600s? Emmanuel, you are always invited if you are in Melbourne!
I'm there - but only if Dave brings Bertie ;D
Do you think you can bring yours Phil?
I'm merely a GTV bystander at the moment.
Hi Guys,
well done Dave thanks for the photos. The faux pas? - it doesn't diminish the enjoyment or the look or the excitement, you can always attend to them as you see fit. It is an old Alfa after all.
I have had real quick turnaround from Marco as well though as I pointed out in a previous post sometimes the numbers don't appear to be there at their end but the cars exist. I have had more than person who is more of an authority than I confirm this....worth doing first though.
Oh and you probably know but never rely on the official paperwork for the numbers, always check as you have done here in your photo - amazing how many have been wrong and for many years......
cheers
Emmanuel
Hey Phil I am thinking I should just keep a car in Melbourne for just such occasions!.......
This one just appeared today, but liklely under false pretenses!
http://www.carsales.com.au/private/details/alfa-romeo-giulia-1967-12383816?base=1216&vertical=Car&eapi=2&page=1&sort=~Year&cr=1&__N=1246 1247 1252 1282 4294967249 1216&silo=Stock&Range=Price:Min,Max~0.5
Hi Emmanuel,
Great photos from Germany! We must chat too. I sense a good story or two from you. By the way, you don't need to keep a car here in Melbourne, I will have one for you to drive around in. (I added you to my insurance policy for all of the old ones when you came down for Spettacolo last year). I have not been able to meet the white one but look forward to reacquainting when up in NSW soon. For the white car, a tip to remember the gear you are in that worked well for me - say it out loud as you shift, otherwise you forget if you are in 2,3 or 4. It really works! ;)
Best Regards
Phil
Sounds good Phil, both the article and the catch up...although Pancho I'm not sure yet when Bertie will be on the road...I think I'm getting a bit excited, the likelihood he'll be on the road in time for Canberra is probably very slim.
First thing tomorrow I'll try and get an unregistered vehicle permit and ring Maranello Pursang see if I can book in for a RWC and an estimate of costs/time...as long as work doesn't ruin the fun.
Who's this Marco chap and how do I get hold of him?
Dave
Wasn't that 1300 for sale last year? And why does it have Giulia Sprint GT and Veloce badging?
Also, anyone know what happened to the one at the Healey Factory, assume it sold...who's the lucky man/woman/investment group?
Yes, it's the same car.
Previously advertised as a 'special' model GT Veloce with a 1300 engine.
Dave read this, I wrote up a bit about what info they send
http://www.alfa-male.com/general_alfa/finding-out-about-your-alfas-early-history/
That car sales ad is contradictory. The chassis number is definitely GT Veloce.
A great yarn and a great car Dave, you will love it!! Man I'm getting motivated to get cracking on mine......best I not look at the bank account to burst that bubble ::)
I might be able to help you out with the 1600 engine. I will email you (with apologies to Sheldon!).