Gents
Would anyone be able to give me a crash course in sud mods for low budget track and motorkhana work?
This is for a stock single carb sprint veloce.
I'll start the list
- baffled sump
- remove front antiroll bar ?
- rear antiroll bar upgrade?
- springs - where to buy new or used? What rates? How bad are cut factory springs?
- shocks - ?
Any recommendations on where to plumb in a hydraulic handbrake? Right at the start of the rear line at the brake master?
Cheers
Martin
What year model is it?
Alfaowner.com has a huge sud and sprint forum in their technical forum
You need to register to see the pics
Its amazing what these guys do to their boxer engine cars
It's an 81 I suspect, last of the first series. I'll check it out, thx mate
What are you doing to yours?
Setting it up for club supersprint, so am interested in the responses you get to this topic
haha
'FettaGTV' and '116gtv' discussing mods to sprints/suds. You guys know the answer, sell it and get yourself into an ALFETTA!!!!!! ;) :P
Quote from: alfagtv58 on November 02, 2011, 03:57:23 PM
haha
'FettaGTV' and '116gtv' discussing mods to sprints/suds. You guys know the answer, sell it and get yourself into an ALFETTA!!!!!! ;) :P
I thought it was strange, although, I'm looking at it from the point of view that they "HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!" and now they are on the correct path, 'Sprinting into the Future!'
Martin, your on the right track, 1st you must baffle the sump.
The rest I'll suggest from a spend no money approach since you said 'low budget' and that's how I did it with my race Sprint.
Weight is critical. Take out everything. Yes everything your allowed to take out and then find more, dashboard, all sound deadener, cut out what you can, fit polycarb windows. This is one of the most important steps to help our little engines.
Fit a good race seat and harness. Worth many seconds alone.
Then after lightening, cut the original springs, start by cutting one coil off the front springs, and 2 coils off the rear springs. Yes, the coils will fall out when you jack the car up. The fronts don't go anywhere unless you intend on jumping the car, and the rears are a problem, so I cut an old seat belt and made some straps to hold the springs in. Then step back, look at the car on level ground and adjust to make the rear of the car slightly lower than the front, about half an inch. The original springs are a good starting point while learning the car. Spring rates I don't know, I have fitted cut down heavier springs from different cars in my race car. eg VS rear commodore springs fit perfect in the rear so when you want to go heavier take a trip to your local wrecker and look for similar size springs.
Don't bother changing shocks unless they are worn. eg the car bounces. When you lower the car they get stiffer, although they can begin to leak some oil. I used originals for years in my race car and they worked fine.
When you lower the car it gets too much neg camber, so I file out three of the four holes that bolt the strut to the hub (I leave the bottom one) and make it about 3 degrees for starters, then adjust depending on what your tyre temperatures tell you. somewhere between 2.5 -3.5 degrees.
I like to run a touch of toe in at the front, about 1mm. Some like toe out, but it makes me nervous under brakes, although corners better, so that's up to you.
Front Sway bars are always topic for debate. I like the way the car handles with the front sway bar. I actually put a larger than original one on my race car. Definitely fit a sway bar on the rear, 18mm. Difficult to find a rear sway bar these days, please let me know if you find one off the shelf so I can buy another one.
Give the engine a good tune. Check and adjust all valve clearances to the thou. Check your distributor total advance. The single carb motor has plenty of go while getting to know the sud. Flush radiator and engine. Leave exhaust. When you want to go faster, just buy yourself a 1700 8V with the 40mm twin carbs, instant weapon, standard. Fit cold air intake onto original airbox. Change cam belts!!
If you have the original gearbox from the Alfasud Sprint Veloce 1.5 model, it could be the ideal close ratio box and correct 4.11:1 diff ratio, like my race car. Oil gear change linkage.
I have not fitted a hydraulic handbrake. Also seen to many brake variations to suggest something safe. eg while playing with different original Alfa rear byass valves I lost brake pressure to the front left!! (from 1988 Alfa33). I suggest checking yourself that the rear brake circuit does not go to a tee connecting to the front left wheel. If the rear brake line goes directly to the rear byass valve then you can plumb into it at the master cylinder.
Also fit a set of race brake pads for the track. I would begin with some EBC greens or something similar. Front only for starters.
Use the event supplementary regulations to finish the car off. eg metal valve caps, correct fire extinguisher and how to mount it and so on...
This is the approach I took with my race car, with small adjustments along the way.
Have fun Sprinting!
now you tell me these things!
Quote from: Frank Musco on November 02, 2011, 05:19:58 PM
:
Great response there Frank! You were like a machine in the 6hour in that little rocket of yours!
Fully agree with Frank's comments but a couple of extra thoughts also (pending budget).
- Koni Sport all round work a treat (suggest 25% extra bump on front shocks if getting rebuilt as removes that sag/ lean Sud's give under cornering)
- Solid bushes in front control arms (most of the front end in fact)
- Lowered engine gives a fantastic enhancement to the car's brilliant handling due to the lower centre of gravity & lowers' the front control arms to horizontal so hence less torque steer (need to lengthen top engine mount and space bottom front mount)
- Standard top front shocker mount bushes are too soft & need replacing with more solid bushes to improve steering (not sure where to get after market one's now but might be able to source - let me know)
- Lowered King Spring's are pretty cheap now and bought a set recently (but have not fitted) that apparently lower the car 35mm at front and 30mm at rear)
- If not going cold air intakes, suggest opening the air cleaner up 'significantly' as will give a great & cheap HP improvement
- Good tyres- the best you can afford!
- If keeping in board brakes (which is a must to keep that Sud feel and steering precision), will need plenty of cooling!!!
PS Go the 1.7 8 valve engine
All the best
Paul
Quote from: alfagtv58 on November 02, 2011, 03:57:23 PM
haha
'FettaGTV' and '116gtv' discussing mods to sprints/suds. You guys know the answer, sell it and get yourself into an ALFETTA!!!!!! ;) :P
Yes, username does not reflect new unhealthy interest in boxer engine alfa's.
The alfetta is my show pony, the sprint is the new toy to have some fun in.
Some excellent info here. I'm off to the shed to start pulling surplus weight out right now.
Quote from: alfagtv58 on November 02, 2011, 03:57:23 PM
haha
'FettaGTV' and '116gtv' discussing mods to sprints/suds. You guys know the answer, sell it and get yourself into an ALFETTA!!!!!! ;) :P
Nice one! ;D ;D
Thanks Frank and Paul, excellent info. Plenty to digest, much appreciated.
Guys,
Any disadvantage with converting to studs? Should I thread lock them in or do they need to come out for service work?
Great detailed response from Frank (go team). I'm a lot slower than Frank so any advice I give you is secondary...
If/when you get to getting springs wound for you, I suggest the rule of thumb 2:3 front-rear stiffness. Rear should be significantly stiffer than the front. I run a rear swaybar (series 1 Sud swaybar turned around) and no front swaybar, although when I stiffen the front a bit more I may hook it up again and see the results.
I run QFM 750 brake pads which work brilliantly. As Frank said, just upgrade the front the back really doesn't do much work. I run outboard ventilated discs on the front from a 16v 33, so lost my handbrake. We replumbed from the master so one circuit just runs the front, and the other circuit runs the rear via a wilwood limiting valve. That's turned almost completely off, so heavily restricting the rear braking.
Frank mentions making the rear of the car lower than the front - I did that with the latest rear springs and it made a big difference in weight transfer. I don't lock the rears near as badly coming over Lukey Heights as I used to.
It's hard to say what did the most to change the handling of my car - springs, sway bar, weight loss, camber... Best to just get the car safe to drive (baffled sump and some brake pads) and then get out there and change things, feel the difference. That's the most fun when you're making significant improvements every meeting.
Enjoy!
Thanks, Evan!
Martin ,,,
You need to come around and look at mine ...
nothing wrong with a sud ... just ask Paul
Franco gives some good advice btw
Gents,
Regarding motors:
Are you all running a carbed 1.7 now?
What are the differences, let's say in lap times, between a 1.5 twin carb, and the 1.7- anyone care to take a stab? Reason for asking is that I'm not sure if 1.7s are easy to find these days and if it's worth hanging out for one...
Also, Is there a difference between an early 1.5 and a late super 1.5?
Cheers
Martin
Martin
Can't comment on track times as have only done 2 in the Sud over the years but the 1.7 twin carb is the best boxer motor (IMO of course!). Have driven all 1.5 and 1.7 boxer engines and the 1.7 8 V twin carb is easily my favourite - raw & plenty of torque. The injection motors are fine (again IMO) but lack the rawness of the carb motors but you will find many claim the 1.5 twin carb is also the best motor (Colin??).
The standard 1.5 twin carbs produced 83 hp ATW in Euro spec but can get 105 hp ATW's in a standard 1.7 (with a few small mod's) so lap times should be significantly improved. The biggest drawback to the 1.7 8 valve motor is that factory over size pistons are very difficult to find but 1.5 are easily obtainable.
Not sure on the early 1.5 versus late super 1.5's but thought from memory both were 83 hp ATW's engines. Beauty of the 1.7 carby motor is that it is a simple 'bolt in' job although I did have to re-inforce my lower control arms and inner wheel arches due to the increased torque steer.
Good luck
Paul
thanks Paul - how can i recognize a 1.7 motor over a 1.5 btw???
Martin
I think you can carbie the 1.7 IE motors to 'improve' but will still need the 40 mm webbers which are not easy to find. Not many 33 twin carb 1.7's sold in Aust (100 odd??) as the 1.7 IE replaced in late 87. Around half the cars sold here had hydraulic lifters so no cam covers and hence are easily identifiable. Should not be hard to source engine numbers to be sure engine is a 1.7 for the non hydraulic lifter motors.
Paul
The 33 twin carbs had 95 horse power for the GCL, the TI had 105 horse power, the 1.7 twin carby had buckets more torque and was nicer as it would pull up hills better, however it made you lazy as rather than anticipate every thing and change down a gear or two, you just put your foot down and off you went and also a 1.7 would put you into the under 2 litre class, rather than under 1.6 litre class, in the old days anyway, Colin.
And to identify the 1.7 block, if i remember rightly at the top it has 1730 cast into the block, so the 1700 is actually 1730cc, the cylinder heads on the first 200 or so 1700, had solid lifters, just like the 1500, because Alfa had old stock to get rid of and the new hydraulic heads were not quite ready for production, the hydraulic heads don't have a 4 bolt tappet cover, the camshaft housings are sealed, Colin.
on the top of the block it had 87 if it was a 1.7 and 84 if it was 1.5
Quote from: colcol on December 21, 2011, 09:20:53 PMso the 1700 is actually 1730cc
The 1.7 was actually 1712cc in either 8 or 16V form wasn't it?
Thanks guys.
Forgot about the cc classes, good point Colin. Think they still exist, in supersprinting anyway..
Well if anyone hears of a good 1.5 or 1.7 motor, I'm interested!
And if its under 1.5 litre then you will have to use a 1.5, but if its up to 1.6 litre you might be able to mix and match blocks and cranks, 1.7 long stroke crank to give you a lot of torque with a 84 mm bore, a 1.5 short stroke crank with a 87 mm bore will give you a real revver, all depends how deep you pockets are, Colin.
Some progress shots of my Sprint
Front end has new rack boots and shock boots, front springs as Franks sugestions, still need to do rear
How is yours coming along Martin
This is looking really good, fills the guards well. So tyres are 195/60/14s?
I'm waiting on front pads right now. Baffled sump and hydraulic handbrake are done.
Quote from: 116gtv on December 19, 2011, 08:53:15 PM
Gents,
Regarding motors:
Are you all running a carbed 1.7 now?
What are the differences, let's say in lap times, between a 1.5 twin carb, and the 1.7- anyone care to take a stab? Reason for asking is that I'm not sure if 1.7s are easy to find these days and if it's worth hanging out for one...
Also, Is there a difference between an early 1.5 and a late super 1.5?
Cheers
Martin
Martin
A few years ago my brother Joe fitted his 1986 Sprint with an unmodified 1700 8 valve hydraulic lifter engine, with twin 40 idf's. Before fitting we ran identical cars fitted with unmodified 1.5 ti engines and our lap times were identical. When the 1700 went in, we found that Joe's lap times were generally three seconds faster than mine, with the exception of hillclimbs. So the 1700 is easily faster straight out of the box and YES it is worth waiting for one to come along. Having said that I'm still running a highly modified 1500 simply because its been super reliable and bloody fast.
I will eventually run the 1700 8v solid lifter engine with 40 idf's, although I'm not recommending this for racing because there really is no comparison to the 16v engine,
this is the engine to use for racing. So when it comes down to dollars to fun ratio, the 1500ti is a real winner, then if you have some extra funds go the 1700 8v on carbs, then if you like the way the car drives and you have heaps of spare funds, build a 16v RACE engine/car. The 1700 on carbs conversion is overall an easy way to get more power and make a sprint faster, simply because it bolts straight in, a couple of hoses and wires and away you go, there are no fuel injection complexities.
The availability of all boxer engines is in favour of the 1500 and the most difficult to find is the 1700 8v solid lifter with 40 idf's. Availability is not a concern, yet, and a well prepared boxer engine with all the hang-ons sorted, takes a very long time to wear out, so you wont be constantly looking for a lifter or piston or a crankshaft or cracking bores and so on like my 383 chev I used to track.
Yes, the differences between the 1500ti 105hp and the earlier 1500 is 38 to 40mm inlet valves, camshaft timing and valve lift, and compression ratio. So if you stick with 1500 engines it is worth getting a 105hp engine. When Joe and I began sprinting we found 1 second difference between the 105hp engine and the normal twin carb, and the single carbed engine was another second slower.
Fetta GTV
Looks great!
Quote from: 116gtv on January 03, 2012, 10:14:49 PM
This is looking really good, fills the guards well. So tyres are 195/60/14s?
I'm waiting on front pads right now. Baffled sump and hydraulic handbrake are done.
Yes 195/60/14s
You dont want to swap these wheels for an Alfetta GTV exhaust system by any chance?
Sorry I don't have any, David.
Frank, awesome info on the motor choices, I'm sure this will be of interest and assistance to many other boxer newbies. Im quite happy to stick to my single carb 1.5 right now, its seems to pull quite well once it gets going ;D
Martin,
Do you want an engine ... i can off load a 1.5 to you if you so desire.
Last time i knew they were reasonably good.
Again Martin ... let me know
Cheers
Matt
Guys,
I've got some wheel studs to go onto the sprint. Not sure if I should loctite them in with a light or
medium strength version? Any thoughts? Thanks, Martin
I'd say you would need something quite permanent otherwise they may undo when you undo the nuts
I'm sure someone else will chime in with a better answer
Use the high strength loctite as the constant loosening and tightening will loosen the studs off, and the best way to loosen loctite is to heat it up, and those hub bearings sure get hot, and if you have outboard brakes, more heat again, a tip on removing loctite, use a oxy acetelene flame or a heat gun, and when the loctite starts to smoke, it will burn away, wait till it cools, undo fastener, Colin.
Hey Martin
Any updates on the Sprint, interested to see how its coming along
Cheers
David
Hi,
Time is getting away these days, so I havent had time to trial fit your old wheels or my custom flares, but the new studs are in and it survived the first motorkhana. Much more fun with the FWD/hydraulic handbrake combo than the Alfetta on tight turns in the dirt. I should take some pics and post them..
Would be good to see some pics of the sprint in action
Here is one of mine as it is at the moment, not much action yet. Hoping to register soon. Finally got a set of tyres for the rims I had. 195/50/15's
looking forward to an update on this?
are strut tower braces worthwhile and are they available?
I dont think that a Strut tower brace would do much as there is a substantial brace already.
I hear that the brace that goes from the chassis rail up to near the strut tower is worthwhile.
They had them on the 16v 33's